| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
Isn't it funny when these arguments come to the fore that all the Buell blinkered always drop in that little caveat about the twisty track or twisty canyon road. I guess that's always going to be the way of saving face. The reality is, around a race track 1 second is a lifetime. Times 20 laps means whatever bike comes in 1 second a lap slower is 20 seconds behind. Now how many seconds are we realistically putting the 1125 at? Whatever it is, an 1125 is not a Super Bike beater except in the minds of the Buell deluded. I'm just wondering. Are the Ducati forums full of similar debates regarding the Hypermotos track times? Oh wait a minute. Of course they aren't. Ducati build Super Bikes. Ah, maybe they're Hypermoto owners who believe their ferocious machines could beat a 1098 around a twisty track  Please people spare me. I could have sworn I just saw father Christmas flying past. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
And sprint race grade tires. I do recall that they let the Buell 1125R run WOT for one session in order to see what the difference would be, no? But yes, even in throttle limited 118HP form, the Buell 1125R was hitting the rev limiter on the straights. That would put it at around 170+ MPH if I recall correctly. We should all be proud that none of the Buell riders at the recent Daytona tire testing sessions offered up lame excuses like a fogging face shield or such. For that, one apparently need be riding a Ducati. | ||
| Baggermike |
I see nobody mentioned that the 1125R has ram air induction that will increase hp at speed, also the 1125R goel is to be a great street bike not a race bike but it has the potential to increase hp allot but then it would not be good on the street, like trying to ride a xbrr on the street, you can not get the best of both worlds but buell is trying and the 1125R would make a great street bike and a track bike, this is why I am buying the 1125R I want a bike to go on some mountain roads and be able to do a track day or two a month, this will keep my fast riding on the track and make me a better street rider to, I love my ulysses and the 08 motors are the best yet, I am giving my son my ulysses and he lended me the money to buy the 1125R and gave it allot of thought about buying the 08 ulysses but to get it near the perfomance of the 1125R would cost allot and one day I will buy another ulysses but a 08 or newer, the new motor is impressive and it is built stronger and better and think it might have allot of parts from the xbrr, I also will try drag racing with the 1125R and see how it does, and for you guys worried about valve adjustment I think it is very easy to do and uses the same shims that the vrod does, and the motor is ment to rotate forward to access the heads. I just hope one day someone makes a six speed for the xb motors. Mike | ||
| M1combat |
Quaking in their boots. | ||
| Trojan |
Trojan - not trolling, but how much of that price drop you mention is from the plummeting of the US Dollar? It was in better shape a year ago. Unfortunately the used prices over here have nothing to do with the weak Dollar I'm afraid. New Buell prices have remained constant despite the US$ dropping like a stone over the last 12 months. When the Dollar was worth GBP1.4 the price of a new Buell was exactly the same as now when it is worth GBP2, so somebody is making an extra 0.6US$ for ever 1GBP that the bike costs. That is quite an increase in profit for somebody. Used prices are also being slammed by the fact that Buell are now unloading 'new' 2006 bikes at massive discounts. A 'new' 2006 Ulysses can be bought for well under £7000, which is a saving of over £1000 over a 2007 model. Buell Europe seem to do this every year, and it hammers used prices as a result. I know that a lot of non-Buell dealers will no longer take Buells in part exchange simply because they cannot shift them. Those that do take them in offer ridiculously low trade in prices for them (as do H-D dealers). Add this on top of a generally weak used bike market because of cheap credit and special offers/discounts in the new bike market generally, and it is little wonder that used prices are suffering as a result. As for the 1125R vs GSXR1000 argument, it is never going to be discussed in an objective manner on a Buell forum any more than it would be on a GSXR forum. M2nc, Do you really think that the lack of a race exhaust and suspension cost the Buell 6 seconds per lap compared to Hodgson's Fireblade? Much as I like the 1125R I am not blinded by it like some appear to be. It is NOT a Superbike in the same mould as the Fireblade/GSXR1000/R1, and should not be compared to these bikes as a yardstick. No amount of bolt on goodies will put it into the same class I'm afraid. When you are faced with a 60bhp difference in power no amount of handling ability will make up for that on a race track. We did a practice session at Brands Hatch in 2006 when our bike was out with some Superstock spec R1/GSXR1000/CBR1000RR racers. Our Buell was on Pirelli race slicks whilst the IL4's were all on street tyres. The Buell made up yards in corners, but was absolutley blitzed as soon as the track straightened out, both on acceleration and top speed. That was on the relatively short Brands Hatch Indy Circuit, and on the long circuit the difference would have been even more marked. If you haven't ridden a modern Jap IL4 you really ought to try one to see just how good the handling actually is now. The 600's are even better! If Buell want to be competitive with the GSXR et all on track then it will take an awful lot of engineering, a huge pot of money and a full on factory commitment to get a factory based race team up and running. Ask Ducati how much they spend just to make the 1098R into a competitive Superbike contender, and they are the only manufacturer who is even attemtping to do this with a V twin at the moment (until KTM arrive in WSB in 2009 that is). | ||
| Blake |
Let me get this straight, Buell produces and is delivering a 146 HP Superbike class sport bike that lists for $12K and by many credible reports looks to outperform a 999 and even a 1098, but the naysayers haven't changed their tune? LOL!!! That is too funny! You wanna compare a Buell to a World Superbike or AMA Racing machine, then you'll have to wait until Buell produces a machine intended to compete in the applicable class. Yet I remember fondly how the XBRR in its first ever race bested the 999 Superbike and former WSBK rider at Daytona, and how XBRR racers won many races and the championship in the French Pro-Twins series, and how in the national ASRA endurance race at Road America the XBRRs finished ahead of all the competition including the race-bred literbikes of Japan Inc. | ||
| Blake |
And the criticism comes also from one who has yet to put any Buell XBike through its paces. Poor form bloviating naysayer. | ||
| Trojan |
You wanna compare a Buell to a World Superbike or AMA Racing machine, then you'll have to wait until Buell produces a machine intended to compete in the applicable class. My point entirely  Let me get this straight, Buell produces and is delivering a 146 HP Superbike class sport bike that lists for $12K and by many credible reports looks to outperform a 999 and even a 1098, but the naysayers haven't changed their tune? 146bhp is impressive when matched against previous Buells, but in Superbike terms is only average. Unfortunately in this day and age most of the 'Superbikes' even in road trim are putting out over 170bhp and even 600's are making 130bhp. Whether the 1125R will beat or match the 1098 remains to be seen, and to be honest doesn't really matter. Both bikes will offer comparable peformance, as do other bikes on the market, and both bikes offer far more performance than 99% of us will ever use. People will buy what they like the look of and what they aspire to. Ducati fans will buy the 1098/848 even if the performance doesn't match other products and Buell fans will do the same. Both camps will find excuses to favour their choice and neither will ever be particularly objective in their praise or criticism of their respective favourites. I try to stay onjective regardless of brand name, and happen to like the styling of the KTM, although to many people it will be horrible. Likewise I think that the 1125 styling is off the mark but I know plenty of people who like it. For real world everyday use I quite fancy the Aprilia Shiver 750, Moto Guzzi Griso, Triumph Street triple or even the new Aprilia 850 Mana automatic (now that is a brave motorcycle and a truly innovative bit of marketing), but that does not make me a dyed in the wool Aprilia fan per se or imply any criticism of any other brand ;) There are very, very few 'bad' motorcycles available today, and the market is full of incredible bikes that will outperform even the best riders on the road and track. Why don't we stop trying to run down every bike just to make others look better and just enjoy the best choice of motorcycles that we have ever had? | ||
| Court |
>>>>Ask Ducati how much they spend just to make the 1098R into a competitive Superbike contender Excellent point. PLEASE DO ASK them. See if, just Buell, you can get ONE PERSON at Ducati to engage in a dialog with you. Therein lies the problem. In addition Ducati has just begun to bring back the 100 people they laid off when dealers refused to take any more product. The 1098 and Hypermotard have increased inventory turn over. I'm sure you were turned in yesterday at the long awaited press conference as Ducati executives met with media and announced their 2008-2010 Strategic Plan. If not, you might want to read it and see if you need to revise a few of those comments. Ducati is a neat company, decidedly Italian in design, passion and appeal. There are some things they can do that Buell can not. Conversely there is no way Ducati could engineer, produce and sell a bike like the 1125r at the price point. Buell frankly is taking command of the "super performance at everyday prices" arena. Much will be learned as the Buell faces off with others in the coming months. (Edited to make less condescending . . . it's the new me. . . who knows if Matt was invited by Ducati or not. Anyway . . .let me know if you can get ONE (just one) person at the Ducati factory to come here, or anywhere, and discuss anything ) (Message edited by court on December 14, 2007) | ||
| Rocketman |
And the criticism comes also from one who has yet to put any Buell XBike through its paces. Poor form bloviating naysayer. It's not criticism to point out that comments made about the 1125 being able to beat a GSXR1000 are dreamy. Yes this is a Buell forum, and so it is the most important place to post factual information. Yet year in year out we hear from the Buell blinkered the same old story. How Buells beat the world. Cudos to the French effort, but I'm not convinced the handful of 1098 and 999's were anywhere near the full on race bike the XBRR was. As for that sole Ducati Super Bike at Daytona, do we have to rehash the facts about how much less of a Super Bike it was than say a WSB or a BSB Ducati? As for me riding an XB bike, how will that enlighten me into believing the 1125, or for that matter a race based XB bike, be faster or quicker or capable of beating the best usual production based or race only bikes coming out of Italy and Japan? Seems my comments are invalid because I haven't ridden an XB, yet here you are extolling the virtues of the 1125, and you haven't even seen one, let alone rode one. Sorry, but you walked into that one Blake. Anyway, my beef with the 1125 are two fold. It is ugly as hell, and the KTM power plant of similar architecture and performance is infinitely better, as will prove to be the case on the street, on the race tracks, and in the dealers workshops. That you can count on. Put simply, yet again it is obvious to see Buells bigger picture is profit mongering first. If it were not, Buell would have styled the 1125 far better to suit a wordwide audience, rather than cash in on a patriotic home market. I have one question I'd ask the 1125 owners in years to come. Did they really like the looks or buy it because it's an American bike? I think I know the majority answer. As for the 1098, does anyone seriously believe the 1125 is going to take the performance fight to it? Dream on. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
There are some things they can do that Buell can not. Conversely there is no way Ducati could engineer, produce and sell a bike like the 1125r at the price point. Buell frankly is taking command of the "super performance at everyday prices" arena. Exactly my point all along. Ducati won't compromise their brand by bringing a 'budget' superbike to market. Buell are rather fortunate having the ability to do so, as they will only be judged on their own product and performance. However, it won't work anywhere but in the home market. 1125 sales in Europe will be nothing more than a flea bite on a cats arse compared to 'similar' bikes on offer from Europe or Japan. Watch closely how the KTM brand will soar. Over here quality at superbike level is paramount. Budget is way down the pecking order. Europe does not need a budget wannabe superbike, which is probably why no one offers one or is dumb enough to do so. Rocket | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
what we need here is a good ole fashioned shoot out...we need a person from each of the forums of each disipline ie squid,american bike ,lover repli racer fan, hardcore track day junkie,club racer, and a couple of the most outspoken on each side and let them duke it out in a real world situation..kinda like the american sport bike exhaust shoot out...let them get on the bikes in question and come up with the answer. id realy like to see the forum wars 2008 superbike shoot out...we could all vote for who should go on our home forums and have a panel decide which naysayer from each forum should go...the hitch is u have to write a certain length essay on each bike and video a 5 minute overall on each ride...oooh and we can vote on which bikes are going to be there....il donate my CBR1000RR ... itl never happen but it was fun to think about for sec. | ||
| Trojan |
Buell frankly is taking command of the "super performance at everyday prices" arena. This may be true in the USA, but Buell prices here in Europe put it straight up against all of the other Superbikes in a straight fight (within £1000 of each other). Price isn't even an issue when it comes to performance bikes, so a difference of a couple of grand will not be a deal breaker to most people in this market. In the USA Buell will undoubtedly sell purely because it is American, but in Europe it will not enjoy this advantage and must compete head on against 'home grown' products such as Ducati, KTM, BMW, Triumph as well as the Japanese big 4. Conversely there is no way Ducati could engineer, produce and sell a bike like the 1125r at the price point Ducatis 848 fits that bill over here I'm afraid Court. Actually Court, I was not invited to the Ducati meeting, although I do know what it costs to run a 1098R at Superbike level very well. How do I know this? Because I was approached by GSE Ducati to become a sponsor of their British Superbike 1098R for 2008. Just to be a major sponsor of the team for one year would cost me £165,000 (US$330,000 approx), and that is not the full cost of the team but just the title sponsor cost for a domestic Superbike championship. It takes no account of the cost of actually developing the bike to make it competitive in the first place. I am sure that if Buell put a similar amount into a factory race team they could of course compete at national level in Superstock maybe, but even that would not make them competitive in the Superbike arena unfortunately. The Buell 1125R is a great bike, and a major step forward for the company, but please stop trying to make it something it obvioulsy isn't (and was never meant to be!) | ||
| Court |
>>>>but please stop trying to make it something it obviously isn't (and was never meant to be!) The Buell was intended to be an excellent street bike . . . not a "wanna be" repli-racer. I suspect it will excel. Time will tell. | ||
| Spike |
Actually, a Ducati owner I used to ride with a few years ago would insist that his M900 was quicker around a twisty track than a 998. These sort of claims are not Buell specific. Paying lots of money for an exotic bike does not make one impervious to saying foolish things. | ||
| Davegess |
Let's see we are comparing three bikes here: one, the 1125, that only a very few people have actually ridden in production form and has not been tested by any of the major mags; the second, the 1098, that has been ridden by some here BUT as far as I know no reputable tester has actually gotten to put the BASE model on a dyno - has anyone actually done an extended test on a BASE model? - and the base model cost 25% more than the Buell (I think the European price difference is about that if not a bit more) ; and third, the KTM, that doesn't actually exist in a form anyone outside KTM has actually ridden; and YOU ALL ARE ACTUALLY HAVING A SPIRITED ARGUMENT ABOUT WHICH ONE IS BETTER!!! Ya gotta love the internet; we know nest to nothing about these bikes yet we can get our knickers in a bunch about not only which one is better but WHICH ONE IS BETTER IN NON EXISTENT RACE TRIM! Why don't we start an argument about which 2009 GP bike is the fastest - we don't know anything about them either. ;) ;) | ||
| Trackdad |
And wasn't there talk recent of an acquisition of one named motorcycle company by Harley??? Hey the bikes been on the street in some parts of the country for what, maybe 10 days.... I'm trying to figure out what body part to sell to buy one! Oh by the way, my usual bike is a 02 Deuce. | ||
| Rocketman |
No worries Dave, sanity to this thread has been restored. The Buell was intended to be an excellent street bike . . . not a "wanna be" repli-racer. I suspect it will excel. Time will tell. All hail that man. Here speaks the oracle of all things Buell. As regards to 'time will tell', I'm waiting to see what Matt Purdy will do to his 1125. I suspect it will become the breathtaking jaw dropping style icon Buell should have made themselves. Judging by Matt's previous Buell reincarnations, if anyone can improve upon the looks of the 1125, Matt can. To be fair, it's not that the 1125 is an ugly bike. More, it's looks are a little strange. Hopefully, something is possible for a British rebirth. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
I may be grumpier than normal today. Friggin Verizon comm line went off again this morning for over two hours. Still, I gotta get this off my chest, again. My take is that some folks here hover fervently, intently, ready to pounce and destroy the instant they detect the slightest expression of enthusiasm for or optimism concerning any Buell Motorcycle. It seems to me like some folks just cannot abide any expression of favorable views about a Buell Motorcycle without rebutting, naysaying, and always there is the tiresome commentary about how such and such other motorcycle is better. And frankly, Rocketman this is especially for you, I'm sick and tired and fed up with folks who inevitably turn the discussion to one of insult, ad hominem and personal derision. Why the •••• is it impossible for you to disagree without sinking to personal insult? Yes I know, I expect an indignant reply demanding to know where you committed any such offense. Therein lies the root of the problem. But back to the 1125R and its merits relative to other liter class sport bikes. Sean, I'll agree to whatever wager you care to step up to dear friend, in defense of your assertion poo-pooing the idea that Buell 1125R motorcycles or a derivative will indeed be "taking the performance fight" to the Ducati 1098. Whatever sum you care to wager is fine by me, just name it. Bullshit walks as we say. You really do crack me up. On one hand you deride the XBRR for not being competitive against the top level Japan Inc. factory FX machines, then out the other side of your mouth concerning the XBRR wins at Daytona and the French Pro-Twins championship, it is somehow an overdog blessed with superior performance?  Merry Christmas! Have a good pint on my behalf and I'll do the same for you. (Message edited by blake on December 14, 2007) | ||
| Dbird29 |
Maybe Rocket thinks Badweatherbikers means Parade Rainers.  | ||
| Jiffy |
Rocketman...many many many people...and did I say many? Think the KTM's look like dog poo. So Buell and KTM look like crap to some people. It's not just Buell making an odd looking bike that appeals to some. | ||
| Rocketman |
Why would a motorcycle company take a pretty cool looking motorcycle, a Buell XBS, and shoehorn an up to date liquid cooled motor into its chassis with a little juggling around of things here and there, an make such a bloody fugly job of it, thus splitting the Buell cognoscenti into two camps? The likers and the not likers? And how is it that KTM can take a very very very similar engine in shape, size, architecture, etc, and bring to market arguably one of the most stylish motorcycles thus far this century that is gripping the motorcycle industry and punters alike, whilst Buell has to go out of the way to build an ugly duckling? Do you get it Blake, coz I sure as hell don't? As such I refuse to be bowled over in awe of the 1125. It might well be a great motorcycle, though we've yet to find out, but it will never beat a 1098 or an RC8 as a motorcycle even if it is always in front. Do you get that Blake? Buell could have just as easily built a bike in Buells inimitable style to rival that of the KTM, given Buell have \ had all the ingredients too, but instead they built what instead? Like I said, I'll wait to see what Trojan can do with one. Maybe that French guy Lazarus can help? Sorry but to me the 1125 is like a grown up Blast. It demonstrates how a smart engineer can build a motorcycle from a pigs ear into a silk purse. I have one last question. Where exactly is France? Rocket | ||
| Imonabuss |
Rocketman is a joke. This is a guy that built the most grotesque V-8 chopper thing in yellow and called it a sportbike, and thinks Saabs and TVR's are gorgeous. If Rocketman thinks the 1125R is ugly, then that's high praise. Man, would it be ugly if he designed it!!! | ||
| Doerman |
and make such a bloody fugly job of it, thus splitting the Buell cognoscenti into two camps? The likers and the not likers? Hey! Rocket.. ye'r pissin' in my cereal!  KTM can take a very very very similar engine in shape, size, architecture, etc, and bring to market arguably one of the most stylish motorcycles thus far this century that is gripping the motorcycle industry It's an origami bike. Hey, you know. You're British. You should understand the cup a tea thing. Cup 'o tea, cup 'o Joe.... The above sentence is your sentence. Haven't read that in a magazine myself. Ye'r still pissing in my cereal when you call it ... duckling. I am so hurt! I feel dejected!  but it will never beat a 1098 or an RC8 as a motorcycle Yer gonna have to eat them words one day ... with haggis for dessert, and you can't have any pudding.  Where is France? Go out in you yard. Face Inverness, turn 180 degrees and keep walking. Swim for 18 miles and then you'll be on the doorstep of Course de Magny. } | ||
| Rocketman |
Hey Busman. I'm offended you called my bike a chopper, but I've got an ace in the hole. See, that V8 contraption made it to the top 50 of Britain's Got Biking Talent - a competition run by MCN. What's great about the top 50 was the bikes that made it that far were only there because of a judging panel of MCN staff members, one notable world class racer Chris Walker, a handful of others, and two top motorcycle designers, Glynn Kerr and John Keogh. Funny thing is, both these guys are know to have had a hand in designing Buells. Whodathunkit  Rocket | ||
| Spatten1 |
The KTM looks awesome. The Buell is damn cool looking too. Both will be great bikes. KTM has made great performers for a while. Now it is Buell's turn to join the fray. More great bikes on the road, more choices. I'm just stoked that Buell is making one of the great no compromises choices. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Hey everybody, Just go out and ride what you have right now and enjoy it for what it is, whatever it is. If its bad weather just go out and sit on it and rev. the engine a few times and mellow out. Its really not about the bike its about the ride. | ||
| Blake |
Backing down from actually backing up your rhetoric eh Sean? Smart move. | ||
| Igneroid |
While Im not nearly as schooled in these matters as most, hence my lack of participation, I will say that there is some pretty subtle, high level trolling happening from time to time( Im being scarcastic here ). I find it very entertaining, even if it is a tad pointless. Carry on. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Sure gets heated around here in the winter. Glad I live in Cali as it was a gorgeous sunny day about 60 degrees. |
