| Author | Message | ||
     07xb12scg |
I'm back! (Much to the chagrin of some, I'm sure.) Blake and I have "spoken" in email and I have apologized. I took a break from the site to let things clear over before coming back. Anyway... Some of you may remember my oil consumption thread here. For those of you who don't I'll summarize. My bike didn't use a drop of oil from 0-1,100 miles. At my 1,000 mile service I had them switch it to Syn 3 and it's been consuming oil ever since. I consumed something like 2 quarts in 4,000 miles. I was also told something like, and don't quote me on this, using a quart every 1,500 miles is considered to be within spec according to Harley. Is this correct? The bike has been in twice for the oil consumption. I told them once at the 5,000 mile service mark. They said they checked all the fittings and the plugs for leaks or signs of burning oil and they found none. After a few hundred miles I took it back again. He checked all the fittings and plugs again and said he found nothing. He did a compression check and got 165 in both cylinders. Now this seems really good to me, but is it? I told him to switch back to petroleum oil which, to my understanding, was to be part of the warranty work. They charged me and I haven't had the time to contact the service manager. On top of this I checked the oil as soon as I got home and it was low - about the center of the second "X" from the bottom line of the operating range. I rode the bike for a couple hundred miles and it is now at the center of the "5" in "150 mL". I check the oil when warm. The oil was also near the bottom of the range after the 5,000 mile service. So where do I go from here? Do I need to get more oil and keep riding it until the Syn3 is completely "flushed out"? The oil consumption is worrying and aggravating. I'm lost. I thought switching back to petroleum would have some effect. I do LOVE my Buell even though I say bad things about it. I love riding it. I love the looks. I want to keep it, but this issue pisses me off to no end since this new bike is giving me more problems than I've ever had with anything else. Thanks for the help. | ||
| Jaimec |
I know people HATE when other people do this, BUT: My 2006 XB12Ss has 20,000 miles on it and after break-in I've used the Syn3 almost exclusively (except for Amsoil once at a non-authorized service shop). It doesn't seem to consume a significant amount of oil between 5,000 mile oil changes in my case. So what you're seeing really isn't "typical" behavior as far as I can tell. There is ONE exception: Track days. When riding at WFO on the track, expect to go through oil like sh*t through a goose. Whenever I take California Superbike School or C.L.A.S.S. I ALWAYS bring an extra quart of oil with me. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Thanks for the input. I've never had my bike to a track and it consumes oil no matter if I go out and putt around or if I go road-attacking. | ||
| Reepicheep |
My Saturn burns a lot of oil as well, and has for 150k miles now. My solution was to keep adding oil. My XB drank Castrol 5w50 at a far higher rate then you describe. My solution was to keep adding oil. Going back to full synthetic 20w50, my XB drinks maybe a quart every 3500 miles. No problems, runs great. So how much are you burning now? Don't top it back off to measure, go from the very top of the line to under the bottom mark, then add oil to bring it back to the top. Trying to keep it at the top mark may be just adding oil to your airbox. | ||
| Wpadave |
I experienced an increase in oil consumption after the 1000 mi service and switching to Syn3. I purchased a new 2005 XB12Scg in March. The oil was switched to HD Syn3 around 1,200 mi. I noticed the oil consumption to be about 3-4 oz every other tank of fuel or around 300 mi. This is the amount necessary to move the oil from the add mark to the full mark on the dip stick. I noticed things slowing down after the bike had around 3,000 mi on it around August. I now have around 4,000 mi on the bike and the oil consumption is what I consider reasonable. I'd say it is using 3-4 oz every 1000 mi. I'm planning on sticking with the Syn3. One extra quart will last for the entire riding season. Hopefully this helps. Dave | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Reepicheep: Adding oil to an old car with 150,000 miles is one thing and is not the same as adding a large amount of oil to a new bike. This isn't an acceptable solution nor is it the correct solution. As I said above, I used about 2 quarts in 4,000 miles. Wpdave: I'd be happy if a quart lasted the entire riding season, but it doesn't for me. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sorry, I was not trying to make light of the problem. Some of my vehicles consume oil, some don't. If anything, the oil burners have been more reliable then the "tight as a drum" ones. My 9sx consumes about a quart for a 3500 mile oil change interval (with the right oil). With the wrong oil (5w50 full synthetic) it consumes 2 to 3 times that much. As you note, its hard to really measure it accurately. There is a temptation to keep the oil at the top mark, which means I was just blowing it out the airbox. It made my oil consumption look a lot worse then it was. | ||
| Damnut |
Mine eats it up too. I use Syn3 and I have over 21K on my bike. I use about 1 quart between oil changes. I change my oil every 3-4 thousand miles. | ||
| Ridrx |
I've got an 06 12R with 10k on it and have been running Syn3 since the 1k service as well, however I have discovered by keeping the oil level in the middle of the 3rd x from the bottom of the dipstick I have almost no airbox oiling and consumption is around 1-1.5 OZ with a 2500mile change interval. The oil is going somewhere, you just have to find where. It's either being burned, leaking out or traveling to a cavity in the eng/trans it shouldn't be in. Check the plugs for oily deposits(not necessarily fouled), check the airbox base plate for puddling and check the exhaust for oily residue. Hope you can get it sorted out. Have you tried another, possibly more Buell friendly dealer? | ||
| 07xb12scg |
The dealer told me there are no signs of oil residue on the plugs. I don't yet know if that's true or not. There are no puddles under my bike and I park it in the same spot in my garage. I haven't checked my airbox yet. That is more of a PITA than it should be. This dealership has been great to me up until recently. My bike was picked up and fixed without question when the voltage regulator went, as it should have been. They also gave me a new airbox cover without question after it cracked. It just seems that some, or possibly all, of their mechanics aren't good with Buells. Or maybe they're not good in general. Other Harley dealerships are farther away and this one isn't close. It takes 30+ minutes to get there on a great day. I haven't yet, but I plan on writing a letter to the service manager and telling him about all the problems I've had lately. | ||
| Swampy |
Would SYN3 leave deposits on the spark plug, like petroleum oil? What is the inside of the exhaust pipe like? If an exhaust valve seal was leaking, your oil could be going up in smoke though not fouling the plug. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
The inside of the exhaust outlet has some black soot on it, but it is not oily. I emailed Al from American Sport Bike and he said that if I'm not burning it and if my compression is good it's probably a valve guide problem. Have any of you have problems with this? | ||
| Jaimec |
Not on any of my motorcycles, no. I had a valve guide problem with my 1979 VW Rabbit that resulted in catastrophic oil loss and engine failure. That resulted in a class action lawsuit (I wasn't the only one) and completely destroyed VW's reputation for YEARS. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Al said that the valve guide seal possibly popped off. He said it's not unheard of. He makes a good point that if compression is good (I have do verify this as I don't trust this particular mechanic) and there are no leaks, it pretty much has to be a valve guide seal. | ||
| Windrider |
07xb12scg, I am not sure that your bike has a problem. Air cooled engines tend to use a bit of oil, especially if running hard or in hot conditions. My 2 cents, at full face value: 1. Don't add any oil unit you are just below the add line. Check it always hot in the same location. Many riders have documented oil usage issues when trying to keep the oil on the full line of the dipstick. Usually, the extra added oil is found later in the airbox. 2. If it runs good, don't worry about it. If oil isn't present on the plugs, the exhaust exit, or seen leaking anywhere then the engine has to be burning it up. Where else can it be going? My Uly normally doesn't use hardly any oil but I burned 1/2 quart in a single 100 + degree day running at high speeds 2 up. This is not concerning for this engine. Again, this advice is worth at least 2 cents. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
I thought I replied to this... 1. Anyway, it consumes oil no matter what the level is at. It could be on the top line, the bottom line, or right in the middle and it consumes the same amount of oil. I don't buy that you can't keep the oil level at the top line. When I bought the bike it was at the top line and it stayed there until my 1,100 miles when the oil was changed. It seemingly didn't use a single drop. And I do always pull it into my garage, where I normally park it, to check the oil. 2. If it runs good don't worry about it!? That's just a bad way to look at things IMO. And as I said the bike went from consuming NO oil to consuming A LOT! The consumption has definitely increased and I should NOT have to add oil after every ride to keep it near the same level. Maybe you're willing to live with this, but I'm not because it doesn't seem right. A new bike should not burn 2 quarts in under 4,000 miles, not even a big V-twin from what I've been told. Thanks for the input. I do appreciate it even though I disagree. Court, can you please provide some input? | ||
| Court |
>>>>Court, can you please provide some input? Some, but not much and with the caveat that I don't know much about oil. I seldom check it because I change often and am aware (from years of piloting Cessna and Piper air cooled airplanes) that a good deal of the oil in an air cooled motor is for cooling. In one of the planes I used to fly it held something like 24 quarts but was safe, in terms of lubrication, to operate with 4 or some bizarre spread like that. I change oil often, it's cheap. I also remain an advocate that any oil you use, change at regular intervals is probably just dandy. I run synthetic (changed at 3,000 intervals but I don't know myself out of I go over) in my cars. I've always run petroleum in Buells but I'm sure the new synthetics are good . . and if I bought a new bike I'd probably run synthetic. I change filter every oil change . . . it costs less than a beer. The type of riding that I did when I was riding alot, generally meant I was getting oil changes once and twice a month. If I'd leave Topeka and make the 23 hour ride to Oceanside, I seldom checked the oil on the way, but I had a pretty good feel for what the bike does. When I get my bike back with the new motor I suppose I'll be checking it fairly frequently . . I've a substantial investment in the motor and want to make certain it stays healthy. But I suppose that when it gets low, I'll top it off and that's about all I know . . . | ||
| Onahog |
My 2 cents... Ive owned over 250 HD twins from 1927+ They all seem to consume some oil...especially when run HOT..The comsumpsion saves the engine from Dying prematurely..Ive used all kinds of oils. I am sold on Castrol Syntec 5-50 tho... I purchased a new BMW mini cooper...On the valve cover it specified Castrol syntec 5-50 First oil change, under warranty was 20,000kms...changes after, under warranty service..every 25kms...Thus, i started using it in everything I own, from lawnmowers, to diesels to my Hd engines... Consumption in ALL went down...Plus, walmart has it on sale lotsa times, so +++++ all in a row... As far as your engine goes, Ive seen Hd engines which have chrome rings installed, Not seat properly and In time loose tension and will let un-noticable traces of oil slip past...One usually cant even detect smoking etc....If a valve seal popped off....Useally you will have a smokey trail...try this... Castrol syntec 5-50....Run it till its makin ya feel guilty...5-8000 miles... Keep adding and keep track of mileage and amounts added... As the oil starts to get a bit dirty, I betcha the consumption goes down... That motor of yours just might need to passs a bit of grit to seal those hastings chrome rings up.... As said, My 3 cents, But it works for me, and As siad, Ive had a pile of these motors! Onahog.....  | ||
| Onahog |
And By he way, Id be pissed too...Ya bought a NEW bike and shouldnt have to deal with this..If it didnt straigten out..Buell Customer Service would be getting a call from Me....Hb | ||
| Windrider |
"I thought I replied to this... 1. Anyway, it consumes oil no matter what the level is at. It could be on the top line, the bottom line, or right in the middle and it consumes the same amount of oil. I don't buy that you can't keep the oil level at the top line. When I bought the bike it was at the top line and it stayed there until my 1,100 miles when the oil was changed. It seemingly didn't use a single drop. And I do always pull it into my garage, where I normally park it, to check the oil." Just a quick question: Have you tried letting it run from to the top line to the fill line then topping it again? I had the same issue when I first owned my Ulysses. I wanted to check it and find it on full every time. I kept adding oil and was disconcerted to find that I was adding what I thought was a lot of oil to the beast. Once I went to the standard procedure of only adding oil once it gets down to the add line I use a lot less. My bike seems to go down to about 2X marks and is happy there and generally will hang out there for a long time unless I am riding it hard or in really hot weather. Using the procedure of not adding any until it needs it my XB will typically burn a quart in 5 K miles. Reepicheep's comments were the same to this point and you can find an excellent thread on Adventure Rider from Eor that described a very similar issue with oil useage here : http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93 290 "2. If it runs good don't worry about it!? That's just a bad way to look at things IMO. And as I said the bike went from consuming NO oil to consuming A LOT! The consumption has definitely increased and I should NOT have to add oil after every ride to keep it near the same level. Maybe you're willing to live with this, but I'm not because it doesn't seem right. A new bike should not burn 2 quarts in under 4,000 miles, not even a big V-twin from what I've been told." I would agree that 2 quarts in < 4K miles is excessive but I would also guess that you will find some oil is not being burnt but is up in your airbox. It takes only a few minutes to pop the seat, remove the 3 Torx bolts from the airbox cover, and then simply pop the internal airbox lid open and take a peek. You can do this simple check in less time than it takes to type a post here. If you find a lot of oil there then clean it up and rest easy. If it is clean then you can go on the next logical step but at least you will know if it is going into the airbox or not. This was where I found my added oil and ditto for Eor in the referenced post from ADV. He was even kind enough to post pics. "Thanks for the input. I do appreciate it even though I disagree." You're welcome. I hope that you find my post helpful rather than argumentative as I went through the same process early in my ownership of my first Buell motorcycle. I got past it by accepting that my bike uses some oil, it seems to stay near a more constant level at the bottom end of the stick for reasons I don't understand, and it varies depending upon how hard I ride. If this doesn't resolve your issue to your satisfaction I would get on the phone and involve Buell CS as they should know more about it than me. Happy Trails. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
I finally had a chance to call the dealership on Friday. I've been swamped at work, plus I've been working weekends too. I talked to the service manager and he said what they would do is give Harley a call and see what should be done if they can't fix the bike. They are coming to pick it up Monday. I told them to check the oil to see how much was consumed since the oil was changed. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
OK so I got a call from the service manager at the dealership. They supposedly drained whatever oil was left in the bike and measured it and it was over 2 quarts. They calculated that it had lost 4 ounces of oil. He said it was 1,100 miles, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't even close to that. It was more like a few hundred miles. Anyway, he told me that from the top fill line to being completely off of the bottom of the dipstick is only 4 ounces. He also told me that HD allows for the loss of 1 quart every 1,500 miles. Can somebody confirm or refute these two things? Things just aren't adding up and making sense to me at this point. (Message edited by 07XB12Scg on December 11, 2007) | ||
| Damnut |
Anyway, he told me that from the top fill line to being completely off of the bottom of the dipstick is only 4 ounces. I say BS. I think it would be more like 1/2-3/4 of a quart from the top to nothing on the stick. | ||
| 07xb12scg |
I say BS. I think it would be more like 1/2-3/4 of a quart from the top to nothing on the stick. I think it sounds like BS as well, but it may be true. But I want facts, not thoughts. There are many Buell experts on this site and I'm sure somebody knows for sure. | ||
| Ridrx |
I know for a fact(I've measured) that 4oz will raise the level only about 1/8"-3/8"(dipstick is a little hard to get a dead accurate reading on). I'm guessing no two bikes will be identical, but if 4oz only raises the level such a small amount on my 0612R, I doubt seriously it would be that much difference. However the Scg swing arm is at a slightly more level angle due to the lowered ride height, could make some difference. I say BS, maybe another Scg owner has paid attention to this and will chime in. | ||
| Blake |
Have they not run a leakdown test? The "compression" test will help characterize the relative integrity of each cylinder to the other. Your 165psi compression test result, if applicable to each cylinder is within the acceptable range. You need leakdown tests performed on each cylinder, on a hot engine. It would seem to be very easy to measure how much oil is required to bring the level from bottom of dipstick to the full line. Just do it. A mere four ounces difference between full-mark and very bottom tip of the dipstick sounds WAY too small to me. I wonder where the oil level registers after having the oil completely drained including a filter change and then refilled with the specified 2.5 quarts, yes after running the engine to heat it up and then checking oil level immediately upon shut-down. Is the floor in your garage level where you park your bike when checking oil level? | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Yes, my garage floor is level. I have always checked the oil at the same spot too. I could do a test to see how much oil it takes to get the amount from off the dipstick to full, but I'm sure somebody knows this information for sure. 4 ounces seems way too small to me too. That's why I don't buy it. | ||
| Tim |
 This reference to 4 oz appears in the 2005 XB9 on-line owners manuals. I did not see it in the 2006 version. This is from my 2003 XB9 owners manual. | ||
| Buellerandy |
Just did my oil last night...after adding 2 qrts, nothing on the stick, added that last half of a qrt, i was right in the middle of the hash marks  | ||
| 07xb12scg |
Tim: Thanks for the scan. My dipstick looks different than that. Buellerrandy: That sounds about right for me. What year is your bike? |
