| Author | Message | ||
     Christos |
Okay here it is. I am currently looking to upgrade my X1. Should I: 1) Get the Buell Race Kit 2) Get a Vance Hines Slip on with K&N air system and a Power Commander. 3) Get the Kooks Headers and K&N air with Power Commander. 4) Any other options preferably less costly will be accepted here. | ||
| Mike_E |
If I was going to start modifing my X1 again I would go this route: -Full D&D exhaust from SportTwin -Race ECM -then intake of your choice, ex: Force or just K&N gutted stock box This will cost a little less then the full Buell Race system and save you from having to get the powercomander tuned for your bike For reference I have the Boss slip on, race ECM and Crossroads intake, kind of wishing I upgraded the header though. Most of your power increase will come form the header. Mike E 00 X1 | ||
| Sandmanx1 |
Mike's got a good setup there for the x1 thats what im running and after the tps was set right i have had no problems and huge gains in power plus i ride every day at least 20 miles to work and back. the d&d full system is great but call parts 411 they are a hundred bucks cheaper than sport twin they have d&d send it straight to your door and it takes about a week. | ||
| Caboose |
I went with option (4). D&D full system, race ECM, K&N air filter and gutted air box. I'm super impressed with the D&D pipe. Great build quality and fit with no hassle. I rode my 2001 X1 for a year with no mods at all. Anyone who has ridden a stock X1 knows that they are pretty flat in the mid-range, but have a great surge of power from 5000 RPM until the rev-limiter cuts out the fun. Now my bike pulls hard across the entire rev range. It will wheelie in 2nd with a blip of the throttle even with my fat ass on it! | ||
| Hootowl |
D&D, Race ECM, K&N in gutted air box. Gobs of power. No matter what you go with, DO get the race ECM. The PC doesn't alter the spark curve, and even with the high perf O2 sensor, allows minimal adjustment below 3K (so the dyno tech tells me) The PC is good if you have modified heads or hotter bump sticks. You're going to see the biggest power improvement with the race ECM. It is also a lot cheaper. I have them both, but I have the PC zero mapped. I would take it out, but I plan on some head work later on. | ||
| Aaron |
Take a look at this chart:  This is a 2000 X1 with Nallin stage 2 heads, a 1250 kit, SE .536 cams, and the race ECM. I don't see a thing wrong with that a/f curve. I guess I'm skeptical that the Power Commander would bring anything to the party. I just don't see anything wrong. The torque is falling at high rpm, but that's an air flow thing, not a mixture thing, it's clearly getting enough gas. My guess is the stock throttle body has become a constraint. | ||
| X1glider |
Aaron, do think just a throttle body change in size would help the above curve? Can it simply be turned to a larger diameter and just fab a new butterfly? I have yet to take a close look at mine so I don't know if this is what to do. If I must guess, if the flow is increased, then maybe the PCIII would then help. The A/F seems fine as is, but not if the flow is increased higher up the scale. As is, working the throttle would seem to be very predictable, no abrupt changes or surprises, which I like. The chart does prove that Rempss' worry of the injectors possibly being too small for his setup is nothing to worry about at all. I wonder how Jeff is doing with his self tuning. Jeff? As for me, I've been setting money aside for the D&D full exhaust, race ECM and K&N filter. Should be ready to get it next month after my trip to Jackson Hole. Sandmanx1? Parts 411? Is that the name of a distributor? I'd love to save 100 bucks? | ||
| X1glider |
Oh, does gutting the airbox ACTUALLY give a benefit? Or is this just speculation? | ||
| Aaron |
I'm just basing my "throttle body too small" theory on the fact that Kevin Hern's M2, with the identical package (Nallin head work, Nallin 1250 kit, SE536 cams) but with an HSR42 instead of FI, doesn't nose over on the top end like this one does, and ends up at 104hp and climbing when it gets into the rev limiter. It makes me suspicious that the FI just doesn't support the airflow needed. I could be wrong, of course, that's not really enough data to draw a strong conclusion from. It's just a suspicion. If the chart was going lean I'd think it needed bigger injectors, but I see no evidence that fuel delivery is an issue. The real point of posting this over here was to show that the race ECM is doing a fine job even at this level of modification. | ||
| Hootowl |
I watched a guy tune an X1 with a PCIII at Mancuso HD in Houston. It had the race ECM and the hi perf O2. He got another 10HP out of it. | ||
| Aaron |
Was the a/f messed up when he started tuning it? | ||
| X1glider |
10 HP sounds like a lot for a simple PCIII addition. I know the guys at Mancuso all too well and find it hard to believe they're capable of finding 10 HP, unless the race ECM and O2 sensor were put in at the same time. I've had bad experiences with them over the years. I'm not sure if I understand A/F ratios as well as I think I do. But with all the bikes I've owned and tinkered with I've deduced that you can have a perfect mixture for all around riding and longevity and get beautiful curves on a dyno, but a slightly leaner mix will get more peak power, if you're looking for bragging rights anyway. But that quest for peak power won't necessarily be good for the engine and other drivability issues. Have I come to the wrong conclusion? | ||
| Hootowl |
I don't know. It had the race ECM in it when he started. It had a supertrapp on it, not the race exhaust or D&D, so it might have been a little rich at the top end. Does perfect A/F ratio ALWAYS produce the most power? All I know is that he got 10 more ponies out of it. | ||
| Hootowl |
It might be noteworthy to point out that the dyno tech is trained and certified by DynoJet, not HD. | ||
| X1glider |
I don't know about that, but it would produce the most efficient power (cleanest burn). From what I can tell, you can make the mix ideal throughout the whole curve, but that curve might not necessarily be smooth. To get that, you may need to be rich or lean in spots to smooth it out. But when you are cruising at a certain rpm, you might be cruising in a lean or rich spot. Then it becomes a choice of "smooth curve" or "perfect mixture everywhere." This is an issue that is probably more dependent on the mechanical side of things...throttle body, heads, valves, cams, exhaust...oh, ignition timing too. Yep, Mancuso is an authorized tuning center and yes they get their training from Dynojet. However I wouldn't know what their training consists of. Is it simply how to oprate and adjust the module to get the LEDs to read in the middle of lean and rich? (Even I can read a manual) Or teaching techniques to achieve certain tuning goals? I can't imagine they would teach the principals of air/fuel physics to a tech who should already know that. But maybe they do. Can't say that I've ever asked. | ||
| Sarodude |
It all depends on what you call perfect... -Saro | ||
| Aaron |
In my mind, "perfect" is defined by the power level. If you've got max power, that means it's perfect. The chemically perfect burn is something else, though, called "stoichiometric". Happens at about 14.7:1. Max power comes at a point that's richer than stoich, though, generally, right around 13:1. It varies a little from motor to motor but not much. That's why I can't understand how you can alter the fuel injection mapping from a chart like the above and find power. That's freakin' "perfect". If I saw that come up, I wouldn't know which way to adjust it. 'Course, that's a WOT situation, part throttle under load could be something else. Which is why you need a brake dyno to properly set the things up. | ||
| Hootowl |
Good point. I'm not sure if they adjust at WOT or at a variety of throttle angles and vacuum levels. They claim it takes them about four hours to do it though. Sounds like more than a few pulls at WOT, but who knows? Either way, PC or no PC, the race ECM is a must have, and I would personally go with the D&D full exhaust. The K&N in a snorkleless airbox or a Force or similar is more a matter of preference. I'm not convinced that the modest high RPM gain you get from a Force is worth the money. Plus you have to buy tank trim to make it look finished. | ||
| Gcpoland |
You will see a lot of differant things when you put the motor on a brake dyno, set up with cooling system for the motor. You can run it through differant throttle settings to set your fuel and ignition maps. The Dynojet rear wheel machines are lacking in their ability to maintain partial throttle tuning. I like to compare the Dynojet to tuning on the dragstrip. You can set the bike up for the best ET and Trap speed and there is a chance it will run like crap on the street. If you want to accurately dial in fuel maps, you need to take out the motor and put it on a brake dyno, or second choice is a fairly new Super Flow chassis machine with the cooling options. To correctly play with fuel maps takes a lot of time and patience. It is usely pretty hard to beat the factory for street riding. (They already have put in all those hours in the dyno room.) Unless you go for a really big inch motor, the Race ECM will be pretty close. Gary | ||
| Aaron |
Gary, Dynojet offers an eddy current brake unit for their rear wheel dyno's. The model 250 comes with it, and it can be added to a dyno like mine. They're getting more and more popular with the onset of FI, as you really need one to map FI properly. Unfortunately, they're also pricey, a load control dyno can easily top $20K. Which is why most shops have the inertia version. Does the PC3 alter an X1's ignition timing? | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
I'll second aaron's intuition. My CV44 equiped X1 pulls great to 7000 redline and it never did that with the FI, I would fall on it's face right around 6000-6250. No motorwork, just carb/ign/supertrapp. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
No, the PC3 does nothing more than change pulse width of the injectors. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Lsr_Bbs |
Whoops, send to quickly... So, Aaron, any testing w/ stock airbox and others??? I've done the gutted thing and stock and my non-scientific butt-o-meter can't tell a damn difference. In power or driveability. So, I went back to stock, I like that longer intake runner length. Neil Garretson X0.5 | ||
| Aaron |
No, I haven't done that specific test, the airbox gutting thing. I'm not sure a dyno is a good tool for testing air cleaners anyway, unless you had a big fan to simulate the bike moving. It is interesting to play with intake length, though. | ||
| Dynarider |
I did the same thing with my air box, gutted it & couldnt tell any difference at all. Went back to stock, just left the K&N filter in. | ||
| Wruffus |
I drew a picture of my stock breadbox and gutted version for my big3 intake manifold design engineer. He says I "may" get any insignificant performance boost only at WOT by gutting. Biggest difference would be sound. He suggested I try it and make a purely subjective decision based on noise preference only. Only costs $.99 any way. | ||
| Madman |
Real performance BUELL EFI we are making and getting ready to test what do you think and what is your ideas on a gooood efi This is a complete system intake and all componets, one you controll all the way through the RPMS every 250 rpms with a touch of a button. If your would like some pictureS email me wtaylor@tomnet.com or call Wayne 1-334-874-6307 would like to tell what we are making and how easy it is to use I have sent some you pictures and would like ideas on what you see and what you like to see and efi system to do. Sorry I don't know how to post picture here yet I think this will change the feeling on EFI it has big air and a brain that can match it any a/f ratio you want on the road or in the shop Thanks Wayne Taylor www.madefi.comwww.madefi.com | ||
| Gcpoland |
I am not a huge fan of chassis dynos. (as you can probably tell) They can be a useful tool as long as the operator understands the limatations. Most operators don't have 10% of the pulls you have, and tend to steer people in really strange directions. Most of the dynos in my area are used to sell parts and prove to customers, what great power they achieved for $3000. Then again, I have built killer motors in the dyno room, put them in a chassis, and found out they were a huge slug. Sorry about the timming referance, I was using it strictly as an example and not a direct referance to the PC in question. What I was trying to say , is the factory has people that spend all day, doing nothing but messing with fuel and ignition maps and in the case of the Race ECM have it dialed in pretty close for a variety of mods. Gary | ||
| Aaron |
Wayne: so that's you! I had heard some rumblings about the product, but didn't realize you were behind it. Looks like a hell of a setup! See, stuff like this is what I need to see before I get on the FI bandwagon. FI's promise has been bigger than it's reality IMO. Gary: I couldn't agree more on the misuse of dyno's. But, I've found it to be a VERY effective tool for my purposes. Without it, Team Elves wouldn't hold any records, I guarantee it. Tuning FI for street bikes is a different deal, though ... if I ever really want to get into that, I'll get the load control brake unit add-on. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Wayne: You have my attention. Please tell me more. What kind of gains could I expect from my '99 X1? Vik |
