| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketsprink |
Matt, this is a Buell site, not a BMW site. If you love them so much, go post over there. I think it's too early to talk about the success of any unproven race bike. From any manufacturer. Remember the "the XBRR will win Daytona" crap. However, IMHO the BMW will get it's ass kicked in FX. Nate Kern is a total @sshole (I've met him, so I speak from experience). Shawn is a better rider, and it's kind of stupid on all fronts to compare the BMW and 1125 since the 1125 will not be in FX. We'll see when Moto-ST roles around in March. And for the record, BMW nor Buell won the Moto-ST Championship. It was Aprilia. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, this is a Buell site, not a BMW site. If you love them so much, go post over there. I didn't realise that the censorship had got that tight on this site. First you can't make any criticism and now you can't even mention another make? I actually like lots of different bikes but don't go on every forum in the world just to discuss them. It wasn't me that was comparing bikes in teh first place if you remember. I just happened to comment that I liked the BMW. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Good grief Good post Matt, keep them coming. I like Kool-Aid as much as anybody but I know there's other good bikes out there besides HD/Buell. Just won't see me on any of them. That's cool. Z | ||
| Elvis |
Matt, I don't want to bash BMW because I like them and I'd love to see more companies out there racing, but why should we hold them to a different standard than Buell? Is it fair to assume that they will succeed simply "because they're BMW"? Sure they're larger than Buell, and sure they can throw more money at racing than Buell, but the races they've won . . . so far . . . aren't any more impressive than Buell's wins. Which is more impressive and admirable. A large company that has shown little or no interest in racing investing 70 million dollars to buy a championship at the highest level or a small company scrapping it out at every level they can on a minimal budget with the hopes to build a racing program from the ground up? BMW's racing program can be killed with a stroke of a pen. If Buell shut their doors and stopped producing bikes today, there would still be people racing Buells in 2008. Where can I buy a K46? Again, I don't want to bash BMW, because I want to see them out there competing, but until they have some actual race wins, what makes them any better than Buell (other than having more money). Has racing become sport in which we simply worship at the alter of the company with the most money? How crazy is that? | ||
| Hughlysses |
It wasn't me that was comparing bikes in teh first place if you remember. I just happened to comment that I liked the BMW. Matt, I'm pretty certain that Mr. Rocket's post was intended to be incredibly sarcastic and was not a slam on you. I sure will be glad when warmer weather returns to the northern hemisphere... | ||
| Buellnick |
Intelligent talk about other brands, comparisons etc. are actually good for Buell and the MC industry in general. Compare, contrast, and make your case... Worship at the Buell alter is OK but minds are like parachutes - they work better when open. | ||
| Jackbequick |
I have never met a motorcycle I did not like. But some were more likable than others. I've got a soft spot in my heart for BMW's for the same reason that I like H-D's. They both have been around all my life, their endurance on the market is a big part of motorcycling whether you like any or all of them. I remember when Reg Pridmore was young and taking on some better bikes with air head BMW's. He did it with a combo of mechanical and riding skills and was a much admired underdog by anyone that liked motorcycles. And he took it to a Superbike Championship in 1976. Cycle World shared many of the details with us. All the lovely details of an R90S with an engine that was being taken beyond the norm, things like those lovely lightened and polished rocker arms and the other bits and pieces in that valve train. So beyond liking Buells, there is an umbrella of likability over any and all pushrod OHV twins that have been around for most of a century or more. Is it just me, or does anyone else notice how ironic it is that in comparing the BMW HP2 with the 1125R, the Buell is now on the other side of the fence as far as its engine technology. It is not a rice rocket but it is somewhere in the middle of where Buells came from and where they are today. It has no roots yet but I hope it lives long and prospers! I wish both Buell and BMW the best in their racing endeavors and look forward to seeing some of it. If a venue emerges that lets them compete with each other in a manner that rider skills will be the determining factor, I look forward to it! Jack (Message edited by jackbequick on December 06, 2007) | ||
| Trojan |
Is it fair to assume that they will succeed simply "because they're BMW"? Absolutely not, of course they may not succeed. However they stand a very good chance of success simpy because they are approaching it in a professional and analytical fashion. They have employed an experienced team (Alpha Teknic) to run their WSB effort, and are developing the K46 from the ground up but with their experience of the aborted BMW MotoGP project behind them (extensively tested by Jeremy McWilliams). Money may not buy guaranteed success in racing, but it will get you an awful long way to building a competitive bike in the first place. After that it is down to the team and the riders to get the best from it. BMW actually have a very long history of racing going right back to the 1930's in both solo and sidecar competition and have numerous world championships to their name, so to suggest that if the factory stopped racing they would disappear from the tracks is a little disengenious. Remember also that BMW funded the longest running support series for MotoGP in the R1100S Boxer Cup and the Power Cup for many years. Where can I buy a K46? You will be able to buy one before the start of the 2009 WSB season, otherwise they won't be able to compete. The test bikes photographed so far appear to have road legal exhausts with Euro III catalysers fitted, so they appear quite close to production readiness. Rumour suggests that they will be available by the end of 2008. Neither the HP2 nor the K46 will be head on competition for the Buell range, nor will they race in the sme classes most of the time, but that does not make them any less interesting projects in my view. | ||
| Elvis |
I think most of us would agree that seeing BMW compete will be a pretty cool thing. Obviously Buell isn't going to spend 70 million any time soon (that's getting close to their yearly revenue), but they could realistically compete in AMA superbike in 2009 and I hope there are plans to do that. My fear is that someone at Harley may be thinking about WSBK. I'm afraid of that, because, as I've mentioned, the Harley route is to jump in at the high levels and I'm not a fan of that strategy. If Buell could compete at the AMA superbike level, they may be able to generate interest and sponsers (and gain experience)to compete in WSBK at some point. I would consider that a professional and analytical approach for a company like Buell. For now, I can't wait to see BMW, Aprilia and Buell all going at it in Moto-ST SST. I just hope Buell can be competitive in that class, but their performance in GST last year would lead one to believe they're ready to make the step with the 1125R. | ||
| Jaimec |
Elvis... be careful about comparing AMA Superbike to World Superbike. A couple of years ago Mat Mladin missed testing in the US, so he was given special dispensation to test at home in Australia with the WSBK riders. His GSXR-1000 was in AMA tune (with Dunlop tires) and when he was on the track with the WSBK riders, he waxed them all, including the current WSBK champ Troy Corser who was riding a WSBK-spec GSXR-1000 Suzuki (with Pirellis). He was on the Philip Island track where the WSBK riders had plenty of experience and he had little, too. I've often wondered why Mladin remained in AMA Superbike and never made the jump to WSBK. Maybe the arrival of Spies convinced him to stay (it was no longer "easy" to win the AMA title and he loves the challenge). (Message edited by jaimec on December 06, 2007) | ||
| Court |
>>>>I have never met a motorcycle I did not like. But some were more likable than others. A bit of a silly thread but as a BMW owner I must say they have their qualities. But . . . well, I'd take the S-2 any day.  | ||
| Trojan |
I think most of us would agree that seeing BMW compete will be a pretty cool thing. Obviously Buell isn't going to spend 70 million any time soon (that's getting close to their yearly revenue), but they could realistically compete in AMA superbike in 2009 and I hope there are plans to do that. My fear is that someone at Harley may be thinking about WSBK. I'm afraid of that, because, as I've mentioned, the Harley route is to jump in at the high levels and I'm not a fan of that strategy. If Buell could compete at the AMA superbike level, they may be able to generate interest and sponsers (and gain experience)to compete in WSBK at some point. I would consider that a professional and analytical approach for a company like Buell. For now, I can't wait to see BMW, Aprilia and Buell all going at it in Moto-ST SST. I just hope Buell can be competitive in that class, but their performance in GST last year would lead one to believe they're ready to make the step with the 1125R. Well said Elvis. I concur wholeheartedly sir | ||
| Imonabuss |
All that this post originally started to do was celebrate the fact that the new 1125R for a company of less than 200 people was going very well at Daytona. All the drivel that came in later was just that. Some people are shameless in their attempts to denigrate efforts, and as such they fit in well with the majority of the motorcycling world who think Buell is not capable. Quite frankly I can read negative comments about Buell in many places, and I do prefer that this be a place of celebration of Buell. There is no worshiping at the altar, but there should be a place to celebrate without Buell haters showing up and pandering their endless mindless hatred. | ||
| Rubberdown |
"I do prefer that this be a place of celebration of Buell." It's a Festivas,... for the rest of us! -Frank Costanza | ||
| Rocketman |
Matt, I'm pretty certain that Mr. Rocket's post was intended to be incredibly sarcastic and was not a slam on you. You mean this one? the 1125R in prototype testing demonstrated ample competitiveness against race-replica competitors. I must have actually missed that. Can you show me where the proof is, in black and white please, before you start putting me down as anti-Buell. Us Brit's like facts. We are not renowned for celebration until we are holding the trophy. Rocket Indeed it was not aimed at Matt. And no, I was not being sarcastic either. Quite the opposite actually. In fact Matt nailed my point in far greater detail than I even attempted to. Lap times are only relevant when viewed in conjunction with the parameters of what is being tested at the time. As none of us have that information it makes the actual times completely irrelevant. teams are also very good at spreading misinformation at test sessions, either to hide their true form or to try and enhance it. In fact Matt's last comment there that I quoted is the reason I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread about the two posters 'play' with words. Do I believe the 1125R test bike is a stock production bike or a factory blueprinted hand assembled special? Will we ever know? Rocket | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Just MY observation: It seems as though my new 1125R will be all I will need for my street/canyon bashing. Now it also seems that most AMA and WSBK bikes are tuned to a considerably higher level then their counterparts that are sold to the public. Even privateers tune to a much higher level when starting with a "stock" production bike. I wonder how competitive an 1125RR would be if tweaked to that same level? I believe they could be very competitive also. I do not know if that will happen from the factory but it is very possible from privateers given enough money from sponsors to tune to that level. I also wonder if 200 h.p. could be pulled from this motor. Maybe from a 1199 if that is OK for twins in these classes. Lets hear your ideas on this note, Bob | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Getting back to the topic at hand, I give Shawn a lot of credit getting back out there. I was at Iowa when he crashed in the Moto-ST race. To be up and running again so soon and at what seems to be near the top of his game, I give him a big  | ||
| M1combat |
"If you mean Harley-Davidson, then I am afraid that statistic is seriously flawed when you actually examine it." I meant in the history of motorsport in general. Cars, bikes, whatever... I wasn't even thinking dirt though. So yeah... getting back to the topic at hand... A "stock" 1125R does well at Daytona... Good job Buell. Can't wait to see them run in anger. | ||
| Court |
>>>>I do prefer that this be a place of celebration of Buell. That is cool and precisely what this should be. BMW has more marketing folks in New Jersey than Buell has total employees . . in terms of "pulling off something great" it's a run away for Buell! | ||
| Jaimec |
Court: You may've hit the problem right on the head vis a vis BMW: Marketing by Committee! | ||
| Madduck |
Buell and BMW have one thing in common, dealer support is getting to be a huge issue with previously loyal customers. Good dealers located near customers will be critical for future growth. BMW is dumping theirs and Buell has trouble creating good ones. | ||
| Anonymous |
Yes, Shawn is one tough guy; he was BADLY hurt in Iowa. One other piece of feedback, Shawn told me he was definitely not on his game, feeling still very awkward and was sick too. He felt he was about 2 seconds off what he could run if he was back in form. And he is inspired enough by the results to be planning on working on getting in shape over the winter. And Michael Barnes did a few laps too, about nine total (note he has NEVER been on an 1125 before) and was within tenths of Shawn's time on Shawn's set-up. His feeling was also several more seconds just in learning the bike and getting all the adjustments right for him. Think the 1125 will do pretty well. No one claiming world beater yet, but it's world credible already. Nice to hear people talking about celebrating. We know there's always more to do, but it's fun to get a little happiness out of our first cut at an all new product and market. | ||
| Rocketman |
All that this post originally started to do was celebrate the fact that the new 1125R for a company of less than 200 people was There, I fixed it for you. Before I'm branded a Buell hater, consider it was your somewhat misleading comment, of course understandable given the well deserved excitement of a new model, that perhaps some were wanting to add a little levity to. Not bad for a brand new undeveloped stock street bike with muffler, etc. against works Daytona 200 bikes from the might of BMW! No one was attempting to denigrate efforts. As for Buell capable in racing, I think the disappointment most who suffer from such is more because they know BUELL ARE CAPABLE. Anyway, as you say, let's celebrate. Good times. Peace. Success. Rocket (Message edited by rocketman on December 06, 2007) | ||
| Xlcrguy |
YO, Rocketdude: I fail to ever see your point or purpose. Call me dumb, dimwitted or stupid, I cannot figure you out. Go piss on someone else's parade. | ||
| Xb984r |
"These latest numbers really make me want my 1125 more than ever! Not bad for a brand new undeveloped stock street bike with muffler, etc. against works Daytona 200 bikes from the might of BMW! " Imonabuss,I think the 1125R is far from undeveloped.Or has Buell been fibbing when they brag about all the racers that have been test riding the bike? | ||
| Elvis |
Imonabuss,I think the 1125R is far from undeveloped.Or has Buell been fibbing when they brag about all the racers that have been test riding the bike? From what I've been seeing, the racers have been helping them to develop the street-bike. They've been testing the street configuration with street tires, street gearing, street suspension etc. I remember a comment by an anonyomous poster that the during the endurance testing, they weren't allowing the riders to adjust the suspensions so that they could see how it was holding up in real street configuration. I haven't seen any bikes with chain conversions etc. . . . but we have seen a few people who seem interested in racing the 1125R. Now that the production bike is done, I believe this tire test may be the beginning of that process. For one of these bikes to race in Moto-ST, they'll need race ECM, chain conversion with race gearing, race shocks, Full fairing? (or at least belly pan), race exhaust, lights and unnecessary electronics (starter?) will be removed, etc. It seems that the only thing this bike had was race tires, steering damper and belly pan. (Message edited by elvis on December 07, 2007) | ||
| Court |
Tip of the iceberg. | ||
| Trojan |
For one of these bikes to race in Moto-ST, they'll need race ECM, chain conversion with race gearing, race shocks, Full fairing? (or at least belly pan), race exhaust, lights and unnecessary electronics (starter?) will be removed, etc. From what I understand of the MotoST rules, and from what has been said on here before, I don't believe that this is true. If I remember correctly the MotoST rules are very much production based and horsepower limited, so the 1125R wouldn't be able to benefit from a race ECM anyway (it has to be detuned to make the HP limit as it is). The MotoSt format requires lights to be fitted and I would imagine that starter motors are also required to be retained, as they are in most other endurance formats. Race forks and shocks are already available from the XB range if required, and Anony assures us that the bike will run in MotoST with the stock belt drive, so apart from some lightweight race fairings/panels the bike seen this week at Daytona may well be closer to the finished MotoST article than you think, which would be great | ||
| Elvis |
That's some good information Matt. Thanks. Are you sure about the lights? That really surprises me, but I'll take your word for it because I'm not real familiar with the rules. I wasn't sure about the starter, that's why I left a (?). They must allow custom fairings, because I'm reasonably sure I saw bikes Buells running with the full fairing. As for the race ECM, I was assuming they could get much better performance accross the range by creating a special ECM rather than using a simple throttle stop (I'm not much of an expert on such things though, so I won't argue). As for chain, I'm nearly certain that's allowed, and I would imagine gearing would be a HUGE factor. The Moto-ST is a little unique though in that they do limit the power. I think what most of us are really interested in (and haven't had any hints yet) is what happens when you put a race pipe and race ECM (for higher rather than lower power)on this thing. If they can add 20% or more to the top end with some race tuning, things will start to get interesting. | ||
| Slaughter |
MotoST has a lot of requirements that make sense to endurance racing: on-board electric start, lighting, max HP/min weight... that sorta stuff. The HP limits also mean the bikes are much closer to being a "real" streetbike and I'd bet the manufacturers will be taking more interest in the coming season... ESPECIALLY if the series starts getting more publicity - especially TV coverage. Unfortunately, endurance racing doesn't have the following that short duration oval track or drag racing does. Think being able to leave the couch to grab a beer and not miss any action. Kinda tough with motorcycle road racing - especially tough with endurance racing. The HP/Weight means the bikes aren't fire-breathing beasts. Engine internals means that nobody's making a delerium alloy piston/c-rod/crank set. MotoST endurance racing is so much more interesting than typical sprint racing and the lessons learned are MUCH MORE applicable to street bikes than many other forms of racing in which you're running Sprints for 20 miles or maybe a 50 mile race once a month. MotoST is a huge $$$$ and time commitment and I'm hoping to see a few 1125R's being campaigned. |
