| Author | Message | ||
     Imonabuss |
These latest numbers really make me want my 1125 more than ever! Not bad for a brand new undeveloped stock street bike with muffler, etc. against works Daytona 200 bikes from the might of BMW! Thomas Hinterreiter (BMW HP2 Sport), Formula Xtreme, 1:45.2 Shawn Higbee (Buell 1125R), unrestricted (aka box stock $11,000 street bike!), 1:45.7 Nate Kern (BMW HP2 Sport), Formula Xtreme, 1:46.1 Now I know these aren't the fastest Daytona times by any means, not in the world of the Japanese factories, but they are quite respectable! The bike supposedly is absolutely stock other than turning suspension knobs, stock belt gearing (likely wrong for Daytona), etc. Man, I wonder what a real race one would do? Oh heck, I don't race anymore anyhow, but there is no doubt I will have all I need to mess with the heads of anyone I meet on the street or better yet, a track day. I'm not going to change a danged thing on mine; I'm just going to try to learn to ride it like it deserves!!! | ||
| Trojan |
Not bad for a brand new undeveloped stock street bike with muffler, etc. against works Daytona 200 bikes from the might of BMW! It is great to see an 1125R out on track so soon, although it is always very dangerous to try and compare lap times at mixed test sessions, as you are never quite sure which spec the bikes are running in. We know from Anony that the 1125R had been detuned for MotoST regs, but does anyone know the spec of the HP2's running at Daytona? We don't really know if they were in stock, FX, MotoST or Thunderbike tune. The stock BMW HP2 puts out around 128bhp at the crank, so even with some factory bits and pieces fitted it probably has around the same bhp as the 1125R at the rear wheel. The factory endurance HP2 that ran earlier in the year had around 135bhp if I remember correctly. I haven't looked at the full times from Daytona, but I would be interested to see what the other MotoST times were for the same class as the 1125R. Wasn't Nate Kern also testing a MotoST R1200S as well? (Message edited by trojan on December 05, 2007) | ||
| Zac4mac |
Guess he'd be the one in the pictures wearing the leathers with a great big "N8!" on the back? Z | ||
| Rfischer |
Hey Trojan! Nanny, nanny, boo-boo  | ||
| Trojan |
Hey Trojan! Nanny, nanny, boo-boo What on earth is that supposed to mean? | ||
| Elvis |
I realize it's winter and there's not much else to do, but I don't think we should try to interpret too much from tire tests. The good news is it seems Buell will have at least one 1125R in Moto-St. The SST class should offer a whole new level of competition, and the that should make Moto-ST a lot of fun this year. According to this, Ducati is doing well with their 1198: http://www.motorcycledaily.com/03december07_baylis sready.htm I just hope that doesn't start making people say: "See? That's too much of an advantage." It could make it harder for other twins in the future. I wonder if there could ever be enough twins to create two classes of superbike? One for twins and one for fours. That would be interesting. | ||
| Anonymous |
Shawn's best unrestricted time was on essentially a stock 1125R with mirrors removed running on Moto-ST slicks in an endurance compound -- SuperStock Pirelli tires would definitely be faster. The stock belt and gearing was used, and the bike was on the rev-limiter in Nascar turn 4, on the short chute before the tri-oval, and very, very much so when it was leaned on the tri-oval. Even in 116-hp throttle-travel-limited trim it was hitting the rev-limiter on the tri-oval kink. The BMW HP2s were supposedly in Formula Extreme trim. It is interesting that were 3 seconds slower on a faster track (at least 1 second a lap with recent infield changes) than McWilliams on an XBRR two years ago. | ||
| Trojan |
Congratulations to Shawn and the boys. It sounds as though they have the 1125R running well straight away. The HP2 is certainly in the early stages of development, and I would imagine that even in FX tune it is no more powerful than the Endurance version was this year. This means it will still be giving away BHP even to the XBRR, so it isn't surprising that it is slower at the moment. The bike certainly looks pretty stock HP2 even down to the exhaust. Perhaps they are just running it to see how close they are before making a final decision on whether to race next year in FX and spending more money on further tuning. Or maybe they are trying the 'Tortoise & Hare' approach, as the bike has been remarkably reliable in 24 hour races so far. Maybe they are hoping that the rest of the competition will drop out and they will win by default  | ||
| Rocketman |
Imonabuss - The bike supposedly is absolutely stock.................... Anonymous - was on essentially a stock 1125R................... Interesting play with words there. Makes one wonder  Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
The variations from stock on the Daytona tire test 1125R were: Mirrors removed. Safety wire added. Belly pan added (required by rules as a catch pan) Water only in the cooling system. Pirelli race tires of various types mounted. Throttle stop used to limit power to 116 hp; this was removed later on Wednesday. | ||
| Anonymous |
And an XBRR steering damper was fitted. | ||
| Bobup |
passenger pegs, rear turn signals and license plate bracket removed (Message edited by bobup on December 05, 2007) | ||
| Rfischer |
What IS it with our UK pals???? They simply cannot accept simple hard facts when the facts conflict with their [quasi]anti-Buell conventions. And Trojan, my "nanny, nanny, boo-boo" was directed at your cavalier dismissal a while back of the objective stop-watch based fact that the 1125R in prototype testing demonstrated ample competitiveness against race-replica competitors. Your comment at the time was, 'sniff, sniff..let's see how it does against full race-trim compitition.' Apart from the non-sequitor, the 1125R has now in still-stock form gone up against one of its competitors in full race-trim [yes, the BMW's were and I know that, even if you apparently don't] and shown itself to be worthy. Yet you [and Rocket] refuse to concede that. I will grant this only, no disrespect intended, Shawn is a better pilot than Nate. | ||
| Jlnance |
Throttle stop used to limit power to 116 hp; When one detunes a bike for a race class, are there rules about how it must be done? It seems the easiest way would be to program a new rev limit into the ECM. The throttle stop mentioned above also works. The rev limit method gives you more power at low RPM. | ||
| M1combat |
"The HP2 is certainly in the early stages of development, and I would imagine that even in FX tune it is no more powerful than the Endurance version was this year. This means it will still be giving away BHP even to the XBRR, so it isn't surprising that it is slower at the moment. The bike certainly looks pretty stock HP2 even down to the exhaust. " You're right... because the XBRR was about as well sorted as a bike can be. AS I recall they had been racing that chassis/engine/rider combination for YEARS at that point and there really wasn't anything left as far as room for development in the XBRR. You're entirely correct. "This means it will still be giving away BHP even to the XBRR, so it isn't surprising that it is slower at the moment." Yeah... Even to the XBRR... Which obviously is an absolute slouch in the power department. I'm absolutely certain that it was the aerodynamics alone that I was witnessing when I was at Daytona a couple years ago watching the XBRR gain time on pretty well all of the rest of the FX bikes from the bus stop to about the front straight. Again too... You're bang on with the "at the moment" because I'm sure that just a few tire pressure changes and they'll make that time deficit to the XBRR and most certainly be faster. 3 seconds is nothing at Daytona... That will be easy for BMW to make up. Hey Matt... Who's the winningest company in the history of motorsport? I'm talking percentage of wins vs. entries. "Congratulations to Shawn and the boys. It sounds as though they have the 1125R running well straight away. " At least you threw us a bone eh? So anyway... You think the 1125 might have any speed with an upgrade or two? Maybe something other than the STOCK ••••••• SUSPENSION? | ||
| Jaimec |
Geez, only here could Matt post a glowing review of a Buell and have it taken as a "slam."  | ||
| M1combat |
 You know... it DOES look like that's the stock exhaust. I'll bet they just cut it to pieces and added those spring thingys and the other cans just so it's easier to take off... At least they're using the same manufacturer for the shock though... so that's good... | ||
| M1combat |
What glowing review was that? Did I miss something? It looked more to me like Matt was saying "Yeah... well the beemer will get faster". Isn't it ironic. Sorry if I misunderstood. Quaking in their boots. I've been saying that for years. Do any of you guys have any idea what has happened NEARLY every time an American manufacturer of things with engines has decided to go racing? I don't mean the "Hey, lets try Daytona this year" either. I mean when they decide to go racing. It has never been pretty for the other guys. To be honest... Maybe I'm just sensitive from all the years when I was saying "Yeah, but the Buells will get faster." That's fine by me. As far as Matt needing to ask what the Neener Neener Neener comment was about... I knew the moment I read it. Please don't take it personal Matt. We just have two different points of View. | ||
| Jaimec |
Sorry... I still remember the VR1000 fiasco... That had NO ONE quaking in their boots. Shaking with laughter maybe... | ||
| Court |
Time will tell . . . always does. | ||
| Rocketman |
the 1125R in prototype testing demonstrated ample competitiveness against race-replica competitors. I must have actually missed that. Can you show me where the proof is, in black and white please, before you start putting me down as anti-Buell. Us Brit's like facts. We are not renowned for celebration until we are holding the trophy. Rocket | ||
| Trojan |
And Trojan, my "nanny, nanny, boo-boo" was directed at your cavalier dismissal a while back of the objective stop-watch based fact that the 1125R in prototype testing demonstrated ample competitiveness against race-replica competitors. Actually, what I dismissed was your blind assertion that the 1125R was lapping faster than a GSXR1000 in testing, with no evidence to back it up. Now if we compare the times at Daytona to the GSXR1000's running....No I thought not. I wholeheartedly applaud and support Shawn and the guys with the 1125R at Daytona, and have not made any dispariging comments about them or the tests. My only question was regarding the BMW and not related to the Buell at all, so wind your neck in. Don't try to make trouble where there really isn't any. If the best you can manage is Nanny Nanny Boo Boo then I think you need to get out more. | ||
| Xb984r |
Lets be fair,the BMW is an air-cooled pushrod twin that wasn't melted down and re cast into a new engine.I guess it would be fair to put a production XB12R up against a Ducati 1098 then right? | ||
| M1combat |
Jaimec... I think it's proven that the VR-1000 "fiasco" was exactly that and was certainly not a situation where a company decided to go racing. | ||
| Elvis |
General Buell Racing Strategy - Use contingency money and technical support to help grass-roots racers racing modified street bikes at all levels and hope the best rise through the ranks to higher levels. Learn from the racers. Incorporate that knowledge into improved products and additional racer support. Keep plugging with the knowledge that tomorrow's Tommy Hayden is currently out there racing at the club level. Hopefully, with enough Buells out there that 2015 super-star will have some seat time on a Buell when Buell has a bike that can compete at the top levels. General Harley Strategy - Jump in at the highest level with an unproven bike that isn't based on a street bike. When that doesn't seem to be working as quickly as you would like . . . quit. I'd say Daytona 2006 was the bastard child of a drunken tryst between Buell and Harley racing. Hopefully we can keep Willie G. out of the pits in the future, and hopefully we'll see an 1125R in AMA Superbike in the not too distant future. | ||
| Madduck |
Willie G has done so much for so many for so long I doubt anyone could or would want to keep him out of anything he expressed an interest in. If you really want to help Buell go racing do not piss off someone like Willie G. Going racing means gathering more resources than you can imagine and the backing of truely influential people within Harley Davidson. Willie G would probably be one of the decision makers at the go/no go level. | ||
| Elvis |
A racing program that is so fragile it might live or die based on one man getting pissed off by something "Elvis" posted on and internet forum doesn't sound very worthwhile to me. That's my whole point. A real racing program - the kind Buell has been building over the past 10 years is MUCH more than writing a couple checks. Is money important and necessary? Sure, but there's got to be much more substance there to support the weight of a racing program. | ||
| Jaimec |
The BMW HP2 Sport is NOT a pushrod twin, Guys. I just found out myself a couple of weeks ago... it's BMW's first air/oil-cooled DOHC twin! That makes it VERY different from the R1200S on which it was originally based. | ||
| Cobralightning |
I just think it is nice to see a Buell at the track testing. I love watching AMA and all forms of bike racing, Just to think that when I get back from Iraq I may get to see a Buell out there is really exciting for me. Now lets play nice and show some numbers and facts. All this mud slinging is entertaining but not really helpful. | ||
| Trojan |
You know... it DOES look like that's the stock exhaust. I'll bet they just cut it to pieces and added those spring thingys and the other cans just so it's easier to take off... If you knew anything about the HP2 you would of course know that the bike comes supplied with two mufflers. One is the road legal version shown above and the other is the Akrapovic race can shown in the Daytona pictures. If you take a good close look at the other pictures you'll also see that the N8 bike is very close to stock in almost every respect. The whole point of this is not to compare the HP2 with the 1125R, although it seems the zealots are once more assuming that any mention of another brand implies some sort of criticism once again. I only mentioned the BMW in the first place because I find it interesting to see it out on track for the first time outside of the prototype racing in European endurance races. Comparing lap times between the Buell and the BMW (or any other bike at the test) is absolutely pointless simply because this is a test, not a race. Teams are there purely to test tyres, engines, electronics and a myriad of other parts. Lap times are only relevant when viewed in conjunction with the parameters of what is being tested at the time. As none of us have that information it makes the actual times completely irrelevant. teams are also very good at spreading misinformation at test sessions, either to hide their true form or to try and enhance it. I know that even at GP level teams have marked sprockets with the wrong size, written spurious carb jet sizes on float bowls and even incorrect bore/stroke info on crankcases just to throw the opposition a curve ball. Yamaha even put together a fake V4 two stroke (just a 250 with two extra expansion chambers duct taped under the frame and covered in a blanket so that just the exhaust tips were visible)in the '60s and pushed it slowly past the Honda garage. It fooled the Honda team completely for weeks! Mr Fischer may arrogantly claim to knows the spec of the BMW, but unless he is currently sitting in a Florida hotel room wearing lederhosen and clutching a return ticket to Munich I can guarantee that he knows no such thing. The clever people at BMW will be more than aware even before these tests that their bike is underpowered and overweight compared to the other FX bikes, so I would hazard an educated guess that they will not be competing in FX for the whole season. They may do the Daytona 200 simply because the high attrition rate and long race distance will be in their favour given the outstanding reliability already shown in 24 hour racing by the HP2, plus the 200 generates more publicity than the rest of the season combined. Personally I think the bike will be more at home in Pro Twins (or whatever they are calling it this year), MotoST or even Thunderbikes, and that is where you'll see Nate Kern competing next year with this bike, not FX. By the way M1Combat, just in case you think that BMW is not serious about racing these days. They have just built a US$70 million technical centre purely for their WSB project. They will take a full team to every WSB round in 2008 and, although not racing, will test at every circuit on the day after each race in order to get a full season's data for when they launch the K46 bike in WSB 2009. That bike has already been INDEPENDANTLY timed at 1.5 seconds per lap faster than an R1, GSXR1000 and ZX10R in France (albeit on a track more suited to 600s than 1000s). If Buell/Harley could put even a fraction of that effort and financial commitment into their race programme then we would all be applauding. Hey Matt... Who's the winningest company in the history of motorsport? I'm talking percentage of wins vs. entries. If you mean Harley-Davidson, then I am afraid that statistic is seriously flawed when you actually examine it. The XR750 is credited as being the most successful race bike in the world simply because for more than 30 years US dirt track rules meant that it was not only kept competitive, but it was pretty much the only eligible machine allowed to enter! If you take out the US Dirt track results, a format that the rest of the world doesn't take part in anyway, then H-D doesn't have a good record in world motorsport at all, in fact Honda is the winner by a long way. The last H-D that won a race in the UK (and probably Europe) was in 1972 with Cal Rayborn at the helm. I sincerely hope that Shawn Higbee and everyone else that decides to race an 1125R next year enjoys as much success as possible, and will certainly be rooting for them as much as anybody. |
