| Author |
Message |
    
Rempss
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 09:17 pm: | 
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Vik,
I think our stock injectors are the limiting factor for HP gains. I think they will see too high a duty cycle at 105-110 + HP, just a guess from having mine tested over the winter. They just can't flow enough fuel.
I will dyno mine soon, recently got the break in done, we'll see what the PC does with the Race ECM. I've been toying with the PC lately trying to get to 12.5:1 A/F ratio at 80% + throttle. Mine is not an exact gauge, uses the 4 wire PC sensor for reading, but it's close enough for tuning for a baseline dynorun. I may have the local HD shop run a custom map on the Dynojet, but the service department has a long lead time for any service right now.
If I think there is more to be gained I am going to try a higher pressure fuel regulator, then bigger injectors. If I ever get a chance to finish tearing into my stock ECM so Saro can look into it, maybe we can play with the ignition too. 
I'll keep you posted.
Jeff |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 09:57 pm: |
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Vik, I really ain't qualified to speak to the subject, I was just speculating because Kevin's M2 did better than that X1, despite having the same top ends and cams (oh, forgot to put that in the post, he had SE .536 cams), and I've never personally seen any real high hp injected Buells. But I could be way off base, those two bikes had different exhausts, every motor is different, yada-yada.
But, just thinking about it, a fella with a carb can always slap on a Mikuni 42 or CV44 or Mikuni 45 if the carb starts becoming the constraint, what can you do with the FI? Unless someone offers a bigger throttle body and correspondingly bigger injectors I guess.
By the way, I like TL's, came *real* close to buying one once. You don't have to sell me on their virtues. I always assumed they had a wider powerband than a Buell, too, I was a little surprised to see you post charts that showed they didn't, but I realize now that the TL's chart was something short of it's full range. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Monday, April 29, 2002 - 10:24 pm: |
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Jeff, HD has 2 different injector sizes for their TC88 EFI engine: stock and larger for their Screaming Eagle big bore kit. Maybe you can see if they'll fit or use the same voltage trigger, I really don't know. My guess is they won't because the TC88 is a completely different design, but it doesn't hurt to look into it. Do you know of other aftermarket injectors? If so, who?
I don't think it'll be a problem though, 25cc/cylinder isn't that much growth. I think the ECM will handle it just fine. Buell has already planned for it to accomodate the changes brought about by the race pipe and K&N filter plus any changes in atmosphere and load you can throw at it. But I have to believe there is a ceiling for what else it can do. Maybe this is where the ceiling is set. I'd go with bigger injectors before a higher pressure fuel regulator. The higher pressure may erode the nozzle and needle prematurely. Duty cycle could be a problem too. Don't want to burn them out and have to ride a 601.5 home. Maybe you'll have to carry spare injectors with you like Harley riders carry spare plugs. Who knows? My 1 cent. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 01:22 am: |
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Erik has a 150 hp turbo X1. When I asked him about the FI, he basically said "I run the company, I had a custom map made." He was actually quite surprized that noone has hacked the ECM yet.
I like FI, especially sinceI change elevation so often. I really don't want to dink around with carbs (OK, I'm a sucker for dual carbs...).
Hmmm...I don't know. I'm just kicking around what I'm going to do to my X1 next. I really do enjoy riding it and I love it when I beat a guy on a jap bike. I just wish the deck was a little more in my favor.
I think I'll keep investing money into track days. Best damn performance gain I ever got.
Vik |
Rempss
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 08:47 am: |
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Rich at Innovative Motorcycle Concepts has hacked the stock ECM. Good luck having a civil conversation with him. Keep in mind eveything you have done to your bike including pipes, Race ECM, air filters, Big Bores, cams, PCIII, waxing, washing etc. is a "waste of your money and you should throw it away".
Jeff |
Rempss
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2002 - 09:04 am: |
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Yeah, and I almost forgot headwork is also a waste?
Jeff |
Ken01mp
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 10:54 pm: |
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i have an 01 M2 with the basic mods, V&H, K&N, thunderslide, ignition, and have decided the cams in it are holding me back (thanks Aaron) and want 100 rwhp. its been tuned to 85, but i want more. whats the biggest cam i can run and still have a practical bike? will lightning cams do me any good? are S3 cams the same as lightning cams?
thanks
Ken |
Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2002 - 11:41 pm: |
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Me? What'd I do?
You must've looked at that M2 chart above, before and after Lightning cams. Dealing with a near-stock M2 (85rwhp is exceptional by the way), yes, swapping in those cams is the easiest cheapest horsepower you can get. It starts getting harder and more expensive after that!
Yes, Lightning cams are/were used in S3's as well. These are a "bolt-in", meaning no hassling with springs and clearances and such.
Beyond that grind, there are some great choices, but you're looking at removing the heads. Might as well port'em! Then go with your head porter's recommendation WRT pistons and cams.
I'm having a true horsepower artist help me with a really custom setup right now ... man am I excited about it ... anticipation is running high.
AW |
Ken01mp
| | Posted on Thursday, May 02, 2002 - 09:47 pm: |
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custom setup? dare i ask? or is it one of those, "a magician never tells his secrets" things? one of the best things about this site is the ability to live out ones dreams through others' reality.
thanks again
Ken |
Detroit
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 09:05 am: |
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Just got my S1 back together. Had some Nallinizing done to my Heads, Cylinders, and Pistons. This was my first rebuild. I have been getting out to the garage at 4:00 a.m. to limit the distractions from my lovely wife and 2 year old son.
I followed all the tips from people on this site and the service manual. I pulled it out of the garage at 6:30 (my neighbors are quite loud they deserve it) with trepidation. Wondering if there wouldl be nothing or a loud clank. But to my surprise it started faster and smoother than ever before.
I rode to work this mourning keeping it under 3000rpm. The only thing I can tell from the mourning ride is that the engine is much smoother.
Can't wait to open it up.
In a month I should be posting some Dyno charts.
Nallin did my Lightning head with the same valves as the Thunderstorm Stage 2 job. Should be neat to see the chart. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 01:01 pm: |
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Detroit,
What cams are you running? What exactly did you have done? Millenium cylinders? |
Detroit
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 04:17 pm: |
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Blake,
I am running the stock S1 cams (.497). Brian did the Stage 2 head work to my Lightning heads.
Since I did not have thunderstorms to send him. Forged Wiesco .020 over flat top pistons,.020 bore of stock cylinders, Matched intake manifold to heads, shaved heads.
He says with the work he has done I should be able to get good results with the SE 2 cams. Which I told him I will switch to in the future. He said my Comp ratio should be around a true 10.75:1.
Other than the work Brian has done I have Buell pro series air cleaner and full exhaust and Yost jet kit. That is it for engine mods.
I am anxious to break it in and go to the dyno. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 06:56 pm: |
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I almost went the same way, but decided to go with the 1250 kit for the Millenium cylinders and 4% more bore. Richard Nallin has a Sportster setup similarly to your Buell but with CM580 cams. It is VERY strong. It will be interesting to see your dyno results. I've got over 1,500 miles on my new top end now. It just keeps getting stronger and stronger. Will call Nallin Racing tomorrow to see if they have the dyno set up yet. I'm anxious to see how strong it really is and where its state of tune really is.
What is scary is that Brian advised that it would fall off at the top end (I asked him to build it for big low/midrange, not peak HP), but the thing blows into the rev limiter (7K rpm) hard, even in high gear. My 27 tooth front pulley might have something to do with that. But I think I have a real winner here. Coming out of most aggressive 2nd gear cornering, the front wheel is about impossible to keep earthbound. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 04:03 pm: |
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HSR42 MIKUNI, SE1 CAMS, JE FORGED PISTONS .010 OVER, CF AIR CLEANER, FORCE STREETFIGHTER EXHAUST W/BAFFLE, THUNDERSTORM HEADS BY CYCLE-RAMA (STOCK VALVE SIZE)
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M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 04:07 pm: |
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Same as above but without baffle in Streetfighter exhaust.
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Spiderman
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 04:06 pm: |
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Dig this (sorry i dont have a sheet i'm at work)
83 RWHP S2 aircleaner, Jet kit and bigger valves on a 2000 M2 Cyclone, still have the stock pipe.
About 105 FT pounds of Tourq |
Peter
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 04:11 pm: |
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105 ft/lb or 105 Nm?
PPiA |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Sunday, May 12, 2002 - 06:04 pm: |
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FT/LB |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 02:23 am: |
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Wow!
I'd be really interested in seeing that chart.
Can you post it here?
PPiA |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 09:09 am: |
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83hp sounds right but that torque figure makes no sense at all. Me thinks there was a mistake.
What rpm is the torque peak? |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 09:28 am: |
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Aaron, what's the most peak torque you've seen with stock displacement? Naturally aspirated of course.
Dave |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 10:50 am: |
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Dave: this is the best I've seen, stock displacement, normally aspirated ...
The amazing thing is that's only 1000cc.
'Course, the nitrous didn't hurt it any.
With respect to street bikes, though, above 90 would be tremendous (I've seen dyno sheets but I haven't actually tuned a 1200 that did this). Above 100 generally means a big motor. I hate to say never, but I sure haven't seen it done on stock displacement. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 12:12 pm: |
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Then Wes, as I had believed, did an excellent job with mine (the charts are posted above on May 10). How much change do you think SEII cams would make to the power curve? The torque peaks near 4000 then falls off quite a bit. That may be due to the Force exhaust which seems to really do well in the mid-range.
That's from you LSR bike, right? That nitrous is pretty amazing stuff!
Dave |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 12:51 pm: |
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Yep, Cycle-Rama knows their stuff, that's fer sure. They're helping me with 2 projects at the moment. Wes is quite the horsepower artist.
Yes, that's the LSR bike, put together by another fella who knows a bit about motors, Joe George of Axtell. I actually saw it pull over 160hp a few times, but didn't get rpm on those pulls and hence I can't show torque.
This isn't the exact state of tune we ran it in, we turned it down a tad from this level to help it live. Power level wasn't the limiting factor anyway, it was the amount of nitrous we were carrying. The bike had a top recorded speed of 184.7 in the first quarter of the timed mile, likely it peaked even higher than that, but the bottle ran dry and it recorded a 178 average for that pass. Coupled with it's earlier 182.9 pass, we averaged out to a 180.8 record. The new bike will carry more nitrous  . 'Course, the new bike may approach 180mph even without the bottle. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 01:30 pm: |
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180 before the bottle?  Is that with or without an aerodynamic fairing like the last LSR bike? That must be a 4X4? Or a stroker?
I figure that I'll hang on to my M2. When the engine finally goes maybe I'll have Wes build an S&S motor for it. Although, I probably don't need the HP he gets out of those. Actually, I don't need the HP he's got for me know. But, it is very fun. |
Lee
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 01:57 pm: |
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Since we're on a nitrous thread....anyone know anything about putting an X1 on the bottle? Can it be done with the fuel injection or are carbs in order. I'm itchin'. 
Thanks, Lee |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 03:36 pm: |
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Dave: Yes. With. Yes. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 04:30 pm: |
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Aaron, keep us posted with what you can. We'll all be anxious to hear about it. Although, not as anxious as I'm certain you are! That'll be a wild bike.
Dave |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:28 pm: |
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Well...I was curious...and this came as a bit of a dissappointment. The bike has a Thunderslide kit with 195 main jet, 45 slow jet, and the mixture screw is set out 3 turns, S&S aircleaner, Buell race header with a 4" automotive Supertrapp EDS using 12 disks and an open endcap, and roller rockers. It also has the omnipotent(sarcasm) race module. The ignition timing has been left at the factory setting.
The power delivery is pretty fun, but I really wish that curve continued... or moved closer to the midrange. Any suggestions?? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 07:29 pm: |
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BTW...the chart looks like crap 'cause I was caught in a torrential downpour. |
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