| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
I did it once on the M2, on a pretty steep driveway at my old house. Can't remember if I used second gear or third gear. Start rolling, and get some weight over the back tire, pop, and ride the skid till it starts turning... Problem is... if you didn't make it... you were now at the bottom of a steep driveway with a bike that wouldn't start. That sucked. I had a really funny moment on the XB9SX as well. I had wanted to explore this nearly vertical "driveway to nowhere" along the little miami river. It had an old broken down "property available" sign, so I assumed they wanted me to go up and inspect it. Problem was, that i had spent the whole morning on the KLR250, and took the 9sx up there like it was the same deal. It was a broken up mess or old pavement, baseball sized rocks, and loose gravel. All on a *really* steep hill. I see why the property is still for sale! So I get far enough up to realize I am in trouble, and that maybe an XB9SX with street rubber won't climb a hill like a KLR-250 with knobbies... and put in the clutch and hit the front brake to stop. But I am pointed up a really steep hill, so the front tire is happily sliding backwards, all locked up, and I am headed towards a cliff. Get on the rear brake, and *barely* stop. Oh geesh. Now what. So I kill the engine, let out the clutch, and put both feet down. The bike *barely* keeps from sliding. So I have to *pull in* the clutch to start moving, and release it to *stop* moving, all while managing the front brake as well. It was opposite day. I remember laughing that this would be a classic way to drop the 9sx. I somehow pull it off though... I bet it was pretty comical to watch. Probably as funny as watching that guy try and muscle a dead M2 up his steep driveway. And there are still pucker marks on my seat... | ||
| Xbimmer |
You will give yourself a coronary trying to push start your own bike. Especially if the battery voltage is very low. Anybody know what minimum voltage is required for the systems to work, if bump-starting can even be done? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The battery was pretty dead. The bike had also been sitting outside all night with the morning temperature at around 27*. I'm sure the oil was like molasses. The battery was pretty much dead AND cold. It took several tries to jump it off. The most we could get was a partial rotation of the crank. Maybe you could bump start it if the bike were already warm and the battery wasn't completely dead, but the compression doesn't make for a very good situation trying to roll it. | ||
| Teeps |
Xbimmer Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 Anybody know what minimum voltage is required for the systems to work, if bump-starting can even be done? The ECM probably needs at least 10.5V to operate. I have my doubts that "bump-starting" (with dead battery) is possible. Tow starting maybe... | ||
| Chadhargis |
Yes...it is possible. I did it a few times when my stator/VR took a dump. It wasn't easy, and I had to use a MUCH higher gear (think 4th or 5th) to get the engine to turn over. Once it started, I had to squeeze in the clutch REALLY fast so it didn't stall. I rolled up to one stop sign and it died. Luckily it was on top of a hill and I coasted down and popped the clutch. | ||
| Barker |
I have bump started my my bike plenty of times. I just run with it and then jump on. FI bikes needs a little juice to run the injectors to get it running. But uly's are bigger and heavier than my 9R. You need a good push and some jumping skills to push start a uly by yourself. | ||
| Jmhinkle |
Got my bike back today with two more new problems as a result of the work. They said that both the Stator and Regulator were bad and replaced. My battery is now weak and doesn't hold a charge well which causes the bike to reset the gauges and run on one cylinder when trying to start up cold. I put it on the Tender and got it to start up on two cylinders without resetting the gauges, but I don't trust the battery as it is 2 years old according to build date and the VR and Stator went bad which could have damaged it right? Did anyone end up with a damaged battery and/or get a new one with the stator/VR problems? | ||
| Reepicheep |
My M2 had a cascading failure of stator, voltage regulator, and battery. From an engineering standpoint, I still don't understand all three failing, but they were all bad. more likely, the bad battery just killed my voltage regulator, and the stator just happened to fail at about the same time though luck. But you never know. Could they just have not charged up the battery all the way? | ||
| Ftd |
When my stator failed (3600 mi) and was replaced I received a new battery (under warranty). Frank | ||
| Mainstreamer |
My turn, VR failure after 1/2 hour of VERY hard riding way out in the country side. Both lights ON at the time, '06 Uly with 11,000 miles. The good news is it happened just down the road from a guy that rides H-D. He stopped to help, we pushed the bike to his house and put a charge on the battery so I could ride it home. After a 50 mile ride, in my driveway when I pulled in the clutch the bike stalled. Battery deader then a door nail. The H-D rider, a total stranger, turned what could have been a major PITA into only a minor inconvenience. Yep, must have been my lucky day!  to the brotherhood of riders. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Still sounds like all these failures are occurring on 06 Ulys. Does anyone know if the stator or VR part numbers changed for 07? The 08 Ulys have a completely different system (single phase vs. 3-phase stator). BTW, I ordered one of these for my Uly from American Sport Bike on Monday. :  Link to catalog page: http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/16076.html It won't keep the system from failing, but at least it'll tell you you've got a problem before the battery is so weak the bike won't run. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Really?!? Single phase? I would think that would create problems under heavy loads at low idle. They would have had to change the voltage regulator as well then... | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, the pre-06 Buells and Sportsters were single phase. I just find it odd that they switched back after introducing the higher output system on the 06 bikes. | ||
| Xbimmer |
Hughlysses, I put one of those meters on mine when my charging system started failing few months ago. It showed my system was charging wildly irregular while running, which to me indicated a regulator problem. Service wouldn't listen to me of course and only ordered a stator after their "testing". Of course come repair day when they changed out the stator and it didn't fix the problem... gee, the V/R was bad too. I fixed the bike myself at my cost, screw them. The battery meter is kinda cheaply made, mine fell apart when I pressed the adhesive back to my brake reservoir. Superglued it back together and it works fine. Pretty accurate too, I've been keeping close watch on the battery since the system failed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Xbimmer, that's interesting info. Maybe the regulators are what's giving up and that eventually causes the stator to fail. | ||
| Reepicheep |
The tubers and sportys were all two phase. I am not sure if the early XB's were two phase or three phase. I think a bad battery stresses the regulator. I guess a bad regulator could stress the stator, as it could be come a simple short, rather then a shunt regulator. That could move more heat into the stator. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Reepi: 2 wires = single phase; 3 wires = 3 phase. All Buells up to 2006 models were single phase; they made a big deal out of the new higher-ouput 3-phase electrical system when the Uly's came out. | ||
| Jlnance |
is the regulator the same for single and 3 phase bikes? | ||
| Hughlysses |
It may work on the same principles, but it would definitely have to be a different part. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hmmm. I thought the tuber stator was two superimposed sine waves 180 degrees out of phase, and the XB stator was three superimposed sine waves 120 degrees out of phase. So at low RPM, there were 2 voltage peaks that the shunt regulator... shunted... meaning that at 1000 RPM there was a (4000/60) HZ sine wave. Meaning that it was fairly close to DC after it went through the bridge rectifier, even at low RPM. (The 1000 RPM means 2000 peaks per minute for a two phase, feed that through a bridge rectifier and you get 4000 peaks per minute, divide that by 60 to get peaks per second, which is HZ). Three phase would be 3000 peaks per minute, which would be 6000 peaks per minute after the bridge, which would be 100 hz. I thought there was a case ground, and each wire carried another phase. But that was all me assuming... so it very well could be single phase. It'd still work. I know at low RPM, when I have the heated grips cranked up, and the fan going, and the headlights on, and the brights on, my 9sx lights visibly dim with each engine rotation. A one phase system would make that a lot worse. Never threw a scope on it though, so I could be wrong. And I was just assuming... | ||
| Jlnance |
I thought the tuber stator was two superimposed sine waves 180 degrees out of phase Thats single phase, just like your house wiring. 2-phase would be two sine waves 90 degrees out of phase. | ||
| Reepicheep |
A 110 outlet in your house voltage is a single 60 hz sine wave. The graphics below are not the right phase angle, but you get the idea... One phase:  Two phase:  Three phase:  | ||
| Reepicheep |
(that being said, I am just trying to get clarity of terms... I think you are right about the one phase thing on a tuber, as I seem to recall the diagnostic for the M2 stator was that it should be 6 ohms pin to pin, and infinite pin to ground, which means there is a single coil with a single phase coming off it... unless there were 3 wires on the tuber stator and 4 wires on the XB stator... and I should be working right now instead of farting around on badweb so I am not going down in the garage and digging out my old blow M2 stator  ) | ||
| Jlnance |
Reep you're making me so happy. I know nothing about mechanics. But I love electronics. I almost never have a chance to talk about this stuff. I drew some pretty pictures. Two Phase  Three Phase  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Gnuplot huh... Show off! Cool plots! I think we agree then. Now what was the original question? OK, the VR would have to have changed if you went from a 3 phase to a 1 phase stator. Fewer bigger parts, fewer wires going in. So do you think the three phase setup had three full wave rectifier bridges? I'm trying to picture in my mind what the schematic would look like for all of them combined... you probably would not need the full 4 diode bridge repeated for each phase, but you would probably need more then 4 diodes. I'm supposed to be preparing for a talk I have to give on a mens retreat this weekend though... so I am not supposed to be thinking about this stuff When the shunt regulator (single phase stator) on my KLR250 died, I actually designed a regulator and bought parts to build it. That was when Kawasaki told me they wanted like $80 for the stupid part (remember, this is like an 80 watt stator on a 17 hp dirt bike that i bought for $600). No way I am paying $80 for the VR. I think the schematic would have worked, though in hindsight it would not have switched off with the ignition. Had to work that in somehow. But it was great fun to try and design the schematic and use off the shelf parts. I was using 3055 transistors instead of SCR's, they were a lot cheaper. It'd be fun to design an open source stator based motorcycle voltage regulator... | ||
| Xbimmer |
Is anybody else as lost as I am here...?  I'm going out to the garage and turn some bolts now. JK, good job guys!  | ||
| Windrider |
GnuPlot is good..... | ||
| Jlnance |
I'm a luddite, I can only used software that was around in the early 1990s. I still use fvwm-1.24 as my window manager. The service manual shows three wires running from the generator to the VR. That means it is a delta connected 3 phase setup (no ground.) The rectifier would be 6 diodes. You're bringing back old memories. http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/i el2/1056/7206/00290733.pdf&arnumber=290733 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arn umber=146201 | ||
| Jlnance |
 From your earlier description of how the VR works, there are some SCRs in there too to short out the phases when the voltage is too high. I'm thinking they would be in parallel with the diodes supplying the negative side of the load, but pointing in the opposite direction. The nice thing about SCRs is they are tough and fairly cheap. Transistors are even cheaper, but they are delicate little things, so you have to be careful. You picked the 2N3055 because Radio Shack sells it didn't you? ;) I used to design power supplies with it for the same reason. The idea of shorting out the generator phases to regulate the voltage gives me the creeps. I'd like to see something in series with the current flow. This would dramatically reduce stator load. The problem with putting things in series is that you get a voltage spike from the inductance of the generator windings when you try and shut the series element off. I'd love for someone to take a VR apart so we could have an accurate schematic of whats in there. Anyone have a dead one? (Message edited by jlnance on November 30, 2007) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm going to be offline for the weekend, but we can pick back up monday. I think we should design an open source voltage regulator, just for fun if nothing else. You are darn close on the 3055... I try and source parts that are radio shack friendly, because I inevitably share the designs and want others to be able to reproduce them. I have a local shop that sells parts a LOT cheaper though, so I actually get my parts there. I tried taking apart my M2 regulator, it was potted in some sort of depleted uranium or something.  I ended up with lots of potted bits of broken electronics and a few intact parts. (and I was going to comment on the window manager... and ask if you were still using Motif on an old Risc based HP workstation ) (Message edited by reepicheep on November 30, 2007) |
