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Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:28 am: | 
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I consider having ridden as far as I have without ever much thinking about this a gift of sorts. |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:41 am: |
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Hmmm - freaks my Mrs out if she is on the back too. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 06:23 am: |
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Given your comments Blake, is counter steering the actions of the pilot, or what the machine is doing, or both?
My point is this.
If you have the motorcycle laid over in a corner, and the wheel is pointing the direction of the corner, when is one counter steering? Only when the wheel is finally turned the opposite way to the corner, or anytime before in an effort to get to the opposite?
I think you'll find no matter the direction of the wheel, be it cornering or straight ahead, steering is a constant battle between over and under steer, or just steer and counter steer. In others words you are always counter steering just like you are always steering. It's simply an oscillating deal between both hands no matter where the motorcycle is pointing.
Rocket |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 07:07 am: |
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Skipping details of technique, I'd define counter steering to be the brief input that either rolls the bike into, or out of a leaned over state. This input is when you turn the wheel away from the intended turn, causing the bike to fall over into the turn. ( or up away from it). Steering into the turn is just good old fashioned turning. Counter steering is the roll input.
Rocket's right, real world is a constant series of inputs in all sorts of directions as you feel feedback from the road & make corrections.
Whether Parks or Rocket deserves abuse over this is doubtful. I suspect, after you figure out what the bike does as you wiggle the bars and hump the seat like a frenzied monkey, the Psychology of the mental state desired for optimum index finger tension is just a gimmick to make the point by the author. Blathering about the Jewel in the Lotus is not how meditation works, but a trick to get it to happen in the first place. If we had telepathy, I'm sure the advice would be a detailed if/then muscle feedback impression.
(Message edited by aesquire on November 20, 2007) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 01:05 pm: |
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Awe c'mon Patrick, I was wanting to abuse myself 
You know peepses, when I spout this stuff I do so with much thought. Then I leave the table. Go somewhere quiet, either in my head, or the loo, or wherever, and really think about what I've said or read.
I might paw my way through various books, or search Google, not just in an effort to comprehend what others say, but to comprehend what I've said too. What won't wash with me though is when people say they read so and so's book and it made them a better rider because they did just like the author of so called book said. I have to question how these people know they did better. That's because I don't believe there's a lot of margin to teach anyone the physical act of riding a motorcycle. Sure, road craft and looking for the perfect line and all that stuff, but telling the reader to push the bar inside the corner is a much sweeping statement covering an awful lot of motorcycles, and I just don't see the physics stacking up. So I think some more. I confuse myself. I unconfuse myself. Then I get to thinking how rowdy we would all be if we were debating this in the pub over a few alcohol free beers. Life's good, and like I said earlier, I do this for fun, so I hope I don't come across as something I'm not just because I'm adamant about my beliefs. So please, feel free to make me look stupid, if I deserve it.
By the way, who is Lee Parks?
Rocket |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 01:15 pm: |
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By the way, who is Lee Parks?
BLASPHEMER!!!! |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 01:45 pm: |
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Didn't we have this discussion before?
Counter steering is relative to equilibrium. Not relative to what direction the wheel is actually pointing. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:07 pm: |
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M1, this is the revisited version. Or if you prefer, 'Rocket Gets An Arse Kicking - Part 2'.
By the way, what's an equlibrarian?
Rocket |
Josh_
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:39 pm: |
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Come over to the States, drop some coin on a class (CLASS, California Superbike School, Total Control ARC, American Supercamps) then tell the instructors they're full of it. You can rent a bike at each of these, except Lee Parks Total Control.
There are other schools (Freddy Spencer, Kevin Schwanz, and Jason Pridmore all have schools) but those are the ones I've attended. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 05:40 pm: |
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I guess my definition of "counter-steering" is when for a particular scenario you steer/turn the front wheel in a sense counter to what you would for an automobile. Don's definition makes sense too. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 07:04 pm: |
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Josh, I don't need to attend riding school. I have ridden the track, and it's really not my cup of tea.
I consider the open road my speciality, which perhaps somewhat surprisingly is a place many racers ever venture on two wheels. It's not so uncommon to find racers that don't even hold a license to ride bikes on the road. I guess if I published a book on 'Theory and Practice of Skilled Riding on the Open Road' people would consider me an expert too. Given I've probably got more experience on the road than most of these so called experts who've forged a career and income from writing their opinions after their racing career is over, maybe you should start listening to me. After all, I'm the voice of experience compared to these track experts who rode on an obstacle free smooth as mash potato road with nothing coming the other way.
Tell you what Josh. How about you ask your experts to come to my riding school along the B1248 and A164. I'm sure they'll appreciate the expert tutelage I can give. Rest assured though, I will not be preaching the merits of pushing or pulling 
Rocket |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 07:07 pm: |
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I figure that Counter Steer"ing" is something one does. A bike is Counter Steer"ed", the human does the steer"ing".
So lets decide what Counter Steer"ing" accomplishes... It moves the tire patch in the direction of steer. The top of the bike isn't connected to anything but one of newtons laws (Objects in straight line motion tend to stay in straight line motion) so it continues along it's straight path whilst the tires are being forcibly removed from under it. This creates lean. We were Counter Steering.
Now, as the bike nears the riders intended lean angle (keep in mind that the controls are analogue and not digital and we have time to contend with) the rider eases up on the counter steering. This slows and finally stops the addition of lean angle. As the rider reduces force on the bars the bars DO turn to the inside BUT, to maintain lean angle the rider must maintain some force that keeps the bars from turning TOO FAR inside. If the bars were just left to their own devices at this point the bike would stand straight up, oscillate a few times (an infinite number of times to be technical...) and return to going "straight".
So...
IMO...
Counter Steering is the act of placing force on the bars in an effort to counteract their tendency to turn "too far" into the turn and stand the bike back up. It's not a state the bike is in (the bars turned to the outside).
You might notice that I didn't mention which hand to use...
All I know about that subject is that after about 40 degrees of lean on an XB12R I can keep a stable line with pressure to the inside bar, but if I use the outside bar the bike seems less stable and wants to wander a bit. I don't know if that's because I have more control of my muscles when pushing or what, but that's my experience. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:02 pm: |
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Sounds good to me M1. I'm all for counter steer being one side of an oscillating force. I'm not certain because I can't tell when riding, but my head tells me that oscillation no matter the angle of the bike is a constant presence. It would be interesting to measure the finite movements of both ends of the bar on a bike ridden under normal road course circumstances.
Rocket |
Ceejay
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 20, 2007 - 10:32 pm: |
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To do this properly I'd think you'd need to set up a bike similar to how you steer a small boat-that is hook a single bar up that points back towards the rider-try riding that one! I steer a lot, or at least it seems, with my hips and knees, I've only been on a track once but it looked as if I could have had knee down pretty easy, cept for the fact that I'm always rolling my hips forward and down which in turn pushes my knee foward. I don't pay much attention to what my hands are doing and from some pics it doesn't look like they are doing much.
Has anyone ever cranked their steering stem down too tight? I don't think you can do it on the XB's but I've done it with bicycles and my tuber as well and it makes for nasty steering IMO. Similar to what M1 may be referring to as I think cranking the bearings down thus increasing drag removes the normal oscillations. Try riding no handed with your bike set-up this way-nearly impossible. This would definitely be a fun experiment but also be very hard to separate variables. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 12:57 am: |
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Please don't tighten your head bearings to create a steering damper. You'll just wreck them early. ( years of bicycle mechanic stuff taught me that the hard way ) You are right that it would make your ride unpleasant then difficult. The stability of a bike, like an aircraft, is dynamic. Not static, like a car. There is a self correcting thing happening and the reduction of that means the only oscillations are pilot induced.
Pilot Induced Oscillations, PIO's, are still a leading cause of loss of control in an airplane. It's when your inputs to make corrections get out of sync with the results. This shot from the airshow where a F22 pancakes, is a PIO. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ieef0tLrv9c
Install and crank up a regular damper, and you will find you Do reduce perceptible oscillations. What it's really for, though, is to keep tank slappers from happening when you change the geometry of the suspension during acceleration & road bumps. The Kawi big bike of a year or so ago was bad for that, to the point that without a damper, it was scary.
The need to apply a constant force on a bar to keep in a bank, or keep from banking too far, ( even less desirable ) is a matter of geometry, acceleration, & tires. A tiller control, or a wheel, would be usable on a bike, it might take a few minutes to get used to it, and a lot of time to reprogram your twitch responses, but it's do able.
I would define counter steering as the actions that roll the bike, as opposed to those that steer it around corners. Both actions take place alternatively & together. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 06:14 am: |
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If then the force we feel against our palm when pushing whichever bar is a constant force, where is the opposite force and why then would we not know of its presence or not feel it? It must exists after all.
For me the 'oscillation' or 'counter' is ever present. All you need do to confirm its presence is push or pull which ever end of the bar just a tiny tiny tiny amount, not even enough to change the steered direction, and you will be able to feel its presence. Steer and counter steer is an ever present force the way I see it. The act of counter steering is the physical force the pilot offers, and I'd assume whilst the pilot is physically counter steering, the motorcycle is also 'fighting back' with an opposite force. You can feel that too. If it were not the case the handlebars would always feel neutral wouldn't they?
Rocket |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 06:14 pm: |
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It fights back because of trail and rake.
A motorcycle left to it's own will stand upright.
Imagine a chopper with a lot of rake. It sets level not moving. lean the bike over with no hand on the bars and what happens? The bars turn into the direction of the lean. Same thing happens with less rake. The system has a natural tendency to want to go "straight". We keep pressure on the bars to keep the bike leaned. We "give the bike it's head" coming out of turns (or we help it steer into the turn if we need to stand up quicker). The natural tendency of the system though, is to steer into the turn and stand the bike up. |
Igneroid
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 21, 2007 - 11:49 pm: |
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I'v just read this whole thread...again....and I got a bloody headache.... |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 12:26 am: |
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>>A motorcycle left to it's own will stand upright. <<
You must have different gravity up there. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 04:04 am: |
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Well ok a motorcycle with enough velocity  . |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 05:39 am: |
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Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 07:43 am: |
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"Two techniques that made me a better rider"
Based solely on the title of this thread I offer up the two most important skills when it comes to operating a motorcycle:
1. Quit landing on your head
2. Quit hitting objects that would put you on your head
No even Rocket can argue with my rider improvement suggestions
Happy Thanksgiving (you too Sean!)
G2 |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 03:49 pm: |
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>>A motorcycle left to it's own will stand upright. <<
Yeah, that's right. It was me wrestling the bike down to the ground in just about every accident I've ever had. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 07:55 pm: |
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None of the techniques discussed were employed by this hapless fellow...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCbeS5KGpso&feature =related
The crash doesn't happen until 2:22 into the clip. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 07:59 pm: |
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Look at this bozo...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXuORVo-eQo&feature =related |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 22, 2007 - 08:24 pm: |
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Yeah, that's right. It was me wrestling the bike down to the ground in just about every accident I've ever had.
Memorable, lol!
That second video is scary. The chase rider should be wiped out for a complete lack of understanding where the riding line is. There are no words sufficient for the lead rider. The one fingered gesture speaks volumes.
Rocket |
Newbuellertoo
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 11:22 am: |
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30 years ago I would have loved that video. Now after watching it, I'm waiting for certain parts of my anatomy to un- pucker! |
Sanchez
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:22 pm: |
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> Look at this bozo...
No words ... |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 12:39 pm: |
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Look at this bozo...
Soon to be one less idiot on the road....
Just hope he doesn't take anybody else with him..... |
Mikef5000
| | Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 09:19 pm: |
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Soon to be one less idiot on the road....
Make that, TWO less idiots. |
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