| Author |
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:27 pm: | 
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Quote:"If FI is just a ploy to sell more expensive items, please explain why the most common problems with vehicles are still the old mechanical parts like I have stated before?"
Jeff: As one experienced in failure and reliability analysis I have to break the news to you that in general, electronic components are an order of maginitude or more behind mechanical components in their reliability.
In evaluating the reliability of an electronic system versus a mechanical equivalent (carburetor versus DDFI) it is irrelevant to compare how many failures on the entire vehicle were mechanical or electronic in nature. To be fair and valid, one must compare electronic versus mechanical on a one to one basis. Your "electronics are more reliable" point is therefore based on misleading and improper logic. There are no currently viable electronic substitutes for bearings, shocks, tires, or transmission gears for our Buells.
Besides, in my experience, the electronic systems fail FAR more often than the mechanical ones. I don't know where you get your information claiming the opposite is true. I would bet that it is not.
I appreciate the benefits of EFI, but please don't pander EFI to me as some kind of utopian system having no defficiencies compared to a mechanical carburetor. EFI is less reliable than a mechanical carburetor. That is a simple fact proven by countless statistics.
Another comparison of mechanical reliability versus electronic unreliability? Consider mechanical versus electronic speedometers. Sure improperly maintained speedo cables can fail. It takes around $10 and five minutes to fix one. A bad spedo sensor costs $50 and takes a lot longer to replace. Plus the electronic speedo is goofed if you alter either your primary or final drive ratios. I'll take the mechanical version thank you.  |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
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Blake:
I have recently become aware of an electrical system that has rendered one of my favorite mechanical systems unnecessary.
As you are versed in such things I am compelled to inquire.....if the electric device would, for instance, gradually see an elevated increase in frequency (of use, not operating lambda) would the diminished use of the mechanical system contribute to it ultimately becoming less reliable or, in a worst case scenario, unusable.
Would it be wise to implement a plan of regularly augmenting the electric, with the good old mechanical, to insure the old mechanical is kept in tip-top working order?
Science fascinates me.
Court |
Xgecko
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 01:14 pm: |
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DS,
While I respect EBoz and what he did with the Kwak600 last year you must also remember that Kwaks also won the WSS last year so the bike is probably better (and carborated) than people give it credit for. Yamaha uses Carbs on their GP bike and they have one of the best FI's out their on the R1. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:02 pm: |
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Court,
I suppose that a general loss of expertise and familiarity with a complex system would surely render it less reliable in the very long term. If the people manufacturing and/or installing a system understand it's basic functionality, they can more reliably detect in-process quality problems.
If the guy/gal installing the float in a new carburetor doesn't understand the criticality of it's adjustment and airtightness you can see the obvious problems that might result.
Why do I have the feeling you are trying to lead me somewhere on this?  |
Rempss
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 03:19 pm: |
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I agree, comparing non-like items of mechanical and electrical design is unfair. Though, we could look at generations of product improvement which may lead from carberators to FI, servicable bearings to sealed bearings, shocks w/leaf springs to coil springs, bias ply tires to radial etc. Some mechanical items may never have a viable electrical alternative, though most evolve over time, so it may be relevant to discuss some.
I only compare these in reference to my own experience, which I do make note of. My experience is not a large amount of cross section of many different systems. Mostly pertains to typical daily activities and hobbies I have had, conversations with others, job fuctions, I should have made that clear.
I am curious, electronic items fail 10+ times more often than mechanical devices? I claim no knowledge to dispute this, I just would like to know a bit more. Does this lay the blame on an electronic device that fails onlty during proper use, or perhaps a short due to cuts/tears in wiring harnesses, improper installation, not correctly calibrated? Is this based on a 1-1 ratio of mechanical versus electrical in use, or is it based on the total number of possible failures? Perhaps FI is less reliable (though I have never heard that before today) is the number of locations in the system for a possible failure, or because in our limetime we have seen carberators as the standard being
replaced by FI, with the kind of problems that might be expected from a new system in terms of development?
I have stated many times MY impression of FI is simplicity in comparison to carberators. I will not lead anyone down the road to utopia, I don't know where it is.
Jeff |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 05:17 pm: |
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Quote:"Though, we could look at generations of product improvement which may lead from carberators to FI, servicable bearings to sealed bearings, shocks w/leaf springs to coil springs, bias ply tires to radial etc. Some mechanical items may never have a viable electrical alternative, though most evolve over time, so it may be relevant to discuss some."
 No, it is really not relevant, at least in the context I was imagining, simply electronics versus equivalent mechanical systems.
"I am curious, electronic items fail 10+ times more often than mechanical devices?"
Change "items" and "devices" to "systems" or "assemblies", and yes in general for equivalently functioning systems that is true.
As an example, compare the reliability of the following...
Thermometers: Murcury versus digital/electronic
Pressure Gauge: Mechanical versus digital/electronic
Scale (weight measuring): Mechanical versus digital/electronic
Compass: Conventional analog versus digital
Alarm Clock: Mechanical versus digital/electronic
Valve Actuators: Pneumatic or hydraulic versus solenoid
As far as DDFI goes, what you are failing to recognize is that in addition to all the additional electronic complexity, DDFI has an equivalent or even higher level of mechanical complexity than a simple carburetor. DDFI requires a high pressure fuel pump with all its parts, injectors with valves, and a throttle fitted with an electro-mechanical position sensor.
"Does this lay the blame on an electronic device that fails only during proper use, or perhaps a short due to cuts/tears in wiring harnesses, improper installation, not correctly calibrated?"
Any failure of the system during the course of normal operation qualifies as a failure, no matter the root cause. A failure can be caused by improper factory installation, improper calibration, bare wires, cut wires, broken wires, loose connections, a bad/faulty component, vibration, or any other number of root causes. If you have to cease operation of the motorcycle to repair a problem, you have logged a failure.
"Is this based on a 1-1 ratio of mechanical versus electrical in use, or is it based on the total number of possible failures?"
The roughly 10:1 ratio in reliability of mechanical versus quivalent electronic systems is based upon the frequency of failure. In reliability analysis we use the term "Mean Time Between Failure" (MTBF) expressed in hours or the number of failures per million hours of operation (L, or "Lamda" as Court says.
Yes, the added complexity and additional paths for failure are what render EFI inferior to a carburetor reliability wise. That's not to say that EFI cannot be made ultra reliable. It's just that highly reliable electronics of the high end military spec type grades are VERY VERY WAY expensive.
DDFI is far more complex than any carburetor I've ever seen. It may be simpler to tune if you have the required interface, but no way is it physically simpler. For my purposes and preferences (general riding, simplicity and reliability) the carburetor is still preferable. When I start racing GP, maybe I'll take a look at EFI. |
Ken01mp
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 08:37 pm: |
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well put blake, except for the military grade part. as a product of the USMC, i can tell you without a doubt that everything the gov contracts out, goes to the lowest bidder. anyone care to guess what an M-16A2 costs the governtment?
still loving my Carbed M2
Ken |
Ken01mp
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 08:50 pm: |
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Jeff-
if you think that it is that easy to track down a bad sensor or electronic problem, well, youre dropping the ball on that one, bubba. it may be on a buell (for now) but as things progress, as they did in cars, the number of sensors and actuators is gonna skyrocket. next thing you know, they have FPS, MAP, IAT, CPS, CPS2, and K sensors. one will fail, but it will fail and not tell on itself, while the others are fooled into thinking they failed. if you think its that easy, then you are mistaken. no wonder you think EFI is "simple"
Ken |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 10:10 pm: |
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I love purely mechanical devices...
never needs batteries...just a bit of maintenance every several years |
Xgecko
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 10:45 pm: |
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slightly off subject but I recently bought a Vostok kinetic watch. Completely mechanical watch no "trons" what so ever and, about the same price as the Timex Indiglo made in China that is almost completely electronic. If I have to support a 3rd world economy I'd rather do so by buying a mechanical rather than an electronic watch.
Yes I like things simple. I own 4 film camera's and use a a negative scanner if I want digital. I don't trust trons and I work on them a lot.
Probably one reason why I bought my Buell as well |
Johnnybravo
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 11:16 am: |
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YESS finally the carb guys come out to play 
Ken good poit that is what i was trying to say all along you start putting all that crap on a bike WHOOOOO 
Then these guys will be begging for there carbs back. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 12:12 pm: |
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Ken,
The government does not award ALL contracts to the lowest bidder. Some contracts require sole source or performance priority procurement. Some are even cost plus.
The method of contract award is irrelevant to my point anyway. You are talking oranges to my apples. Army boots and shooting irons are one thing and when purchased en masse can be had at reasonable prices. Procurement of complex electronic components (SatCom equipment/spares for example), short run production items and prototype/developmental equipment is a totally different situation.
Care to guess what a high end Mil spec RF capacitor/filter costs compared to the $3 commercial grade version? Try $20 to $30.
Strict military reliability and testing/verification requirements drive the high end mil spec part/equipment prices far above those of commercial grade components/equipment.
What's interesting to note is that many times the commercial and mil spec components are the same exact part. So why the different prices? Each mil spec part is subjected to a BUNCH of inspections and rigorous testing; commercial parts are simply batch qualified based on very limited statistical sampling with very limited verification testing. Also, the mil spec parts/equipment often require a more severe operational environment/scenario (temperatures, moisture, vibration, radiation, operational voltage, duty cycles, etc.).
I am curious though, what does an M-16 cost the military and for what quantity? |
Ken01mp
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 12:25 pm: |
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they run about 350 a piece. okay, so some special ops important gear is well tested and high-cost, but i sure as hell have never seen any onf it. having baja-ed a Hummer in the desert, i can attest to how tough those things are. they suck in the snow though. every bit of com gear i have ever been around sucked, irratic and unreliable, then again, thats the Marine Corps, we dont have our own budget like the army, we get whatevers left of the navy's budget, which isnt much. the commercial stuff is cheaper because it was made and tested for the military first, and they got all they needed in funds to account for the R&D, now they stamp out more for less money and sell them to everyone else. for my $0.02, M16's suck. i can pop a balloon at 500 yards with one, and there are lots of better shots out there than me, so the thing is damn accurrate, but ultra small calibre and not dirt and dust resistant at all. they like to jam. sorry to get off the topic, but im off to ride my perfectly tuned reliable carbed M2
Ken |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 01:55 pm: |
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Not just special ops Ken, try just about everything electrical that gets airborn, or is used for communications. Communications, and surveillance (Satcom, Radar, RF, IR, DSP, etc...) comprises a HUGE part of military spending.
Tomahawk missiles don't cost over $1M ea because of their explosive payload or propellant. Every aircraft has at least one radar system. Tanks have thermal imaging systems and range finders. GPS is everywhere in the military. Every type of guided "smart" munition is full of expensive guts that are comprised of ultra high reliability components. And of course the Navy is awash in high tech hardware. What's a TRON, Tony? |
Johnnybravo
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 02:35 pm: |
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Its thoes guys that rode thoes blue and red light bikes in the early 80s good movie  |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 03:01 pm: |
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Well, I've seen more than my share of high grade military spec electronics as I've witnessed many old Vietnam-era TOW missles in training shoot eratically towards the horizon. Always wondered where those landed. Those field radios were always troublesome, too.
M16's are outstanding firearms...as long as you keep that baby out of the dirt! Other than that, I think there is no other better general issue battle rifle...performance wise. It's a trade between accuracy and dirt resistance. I'd rather have that than an ultra reliable AK that you can just hit the broad side of a barn with at 500 yards. For civilian use with a full floating barrel AR15's are exceptional. My AR has never jammed after thousands of rounds.
Ken, have you seen how much gear each Seal team member is issued? I envied those guys. They even get to CHOOSE much of their own gear. |
Xgecko
| | Posted on Saturday, May 04, 2002 - 03:08 pm: |
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Trons are the abreviation for elec"tron"ics, the people who fix them (Electronics Technicians) and the smell of lots of electronic/RF equipment in a really small place (submarine radio room for instance). As one of the few folks in my office who is not an ET but can still fix trons I'm somewhat of an oddity...and well known for my love of simple things. Better moustraps do not exist for any other reason than to keep engineers at work. Sometimes they stumble and make something that is truely visionary. The rest of the time they are making things we probably don't need. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 02:10 am: |
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The engineers don't design it until some visionary marketing fool over-specifies it.  |
Xgecko
| | Posted on Sunday, May 05, 2002 - 03:12 am: |
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you may be right Blake...but the way I see it our Lawyer to Engineer ratio is backwards (last I heard it was 5-1 and climbing) until that changes we'll have lots of worthless inventions to keep the lawyers happy. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 02:25 pm: |
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bump |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 10:00 pm: |
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Just to add fuel to the fire:
In the middle of an article in the July issue of Motorcyclist magazine, on pages 56 & 57, about the up coming KTM V-2 there is an insert detailing Alan Cathcarts' ride on the LC8 powered 950 Rally factory racer. The first paragraph on page 57 says:
Quote:So what did I learn about the KTM's all-new LC8 V-twin motor, the powerplant that will make it's customer debut this coming September in the 950 Adventurer before going into production in 2003 in the Duke V-2? First, KTM built an engine that offers significant amounts of readily available torque throughout the rev band. The result is so refined, responsive and user friendly you'd swear it was fuel injected. It's not.
I don't know if this speaks well for FI or Carbs. What thinkest thou? At any rate, somebody has both FI and Carbs figured out better than Buell. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 10:45 pm: |
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The FI on my X1 is actually one of the few things that hasnt caused me any grief yet. Doesnt mean I wouldnt prefer a carb, just for the piece of mind that I dont have to worry about some transistor or whatever burning out at 3am in the middle of no where.
Where I work, 99.9% of our problems are related to "hi-tech" equipment. Boards burning up, capacitors going out, etc.
And the one exception I would make to Blakes list above is this
Valve Actuators: Pneumatic or hydraulic versus solenoid
For us the solenoids are actually great. We have both hydraulic & pneumatic edge guides & they both suck ass. Always messing up. The ones that are solenoid operated never, ever break. |
Raymaines
| | Posted on Saturday, June 01, 2002 - 11:28 pm: |
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I forgot to include the picture of the Duke V-2 in my last post.
Sometimes years will go by without the introduction of any bikes that capture my imagination, but now is not one of those times.
I’ve said before, I’ll say again: I LOVE my M2! If I were ever to replace it, it would be with a newer, better version of the same thing. Maybe a Firebolt with lower foot pegs and higher handlebars, maybe with a Suzuki V-Strom, or maybe with a KTM Duke V-2. Who knows, maybe the next generation V-Max or Suzuki B-King. From my point of view, these are “the good old days.” Twenty or thirty years from now we will all be looking back and thinking how good it was to be young, healthy and alive at the turn of the 21st century.
Well, healthy and alive anyway. I guess 56 isn't young. I just feel that way after a teriffic 200 mile ride around Mt. Rainier with my son this morning. |
Dust_Storm
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 04:36 am: |
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XG - Don't get me wrong, I think Team Green is great in the sense that they for the most part are carrying on the tradition of 600 racing, their bikes are sverely underpowered in this day and age of SBK, and their favorite for 750 WSB is the 1993 ZX-7RR, one of their last real superbikes. I admire that alot, that and they have some of the best racers in the world making them work. Really I have more fun at ProThunder, the races are much more fun to watch (and hence why I'm TRYING to pick up a semi-demolished Buell, so that i can break the rest of it trying to ride with Blake and the rest of 'em), and support.
Interesting thought I had today as I was ripping the carbs off my ZX-6R non-stop today at the track, carbs are easier to fix (I 'spose), but they are awful to get dialed in, and even worse if they start to slides start to stick(like mind did) and then strange things start to happen, resulting in missed practice, and ultimately my sheer frustration as i nearly threw the whole mess into the trash. Four 36mm downdraft carbs costs roughly $2000 from the dealer... and a fuel injection system costs what??
I would be a huge fan of FI if I could do what Team Honda does, just plug in the palmtop, reset the curve, and take off again... instead of the 2 minutes to take the carbs out, reset them, put them back on, ride around, figure out it's lean, and repeat until you get it close.. ARGH!
I love the Blast for that reason - one carb, easy to adjust, very little tuning required, and cheap to maintain / control. Make a FI system like that
and I'm sold...
[Ds]
(Stock!)Blast did well day, Kawak sucked balls. |
Madman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 09:57 am: |
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Efi Is great if you can control it and you have a system a lot better than any carb,
Carb are simple and do work! But we all are sitting in front of a computer the hangs up kicks you off the net won't print a page when you want and more but they do work realy well.
We have a product the is user friedly and made to make Buellies run faster and quicker than and any carb are stock efi unit!!! Please take a look at our efi that give you TOTAL CONTROL EFI.
Thanks
Wayne Taylor 1-334-874-6307 info
Taylor Machine home of MAD EFI
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Madman
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 10:01 am: |
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Sorry didn't get the pic on last post just go to
www.madefi.com
Thanks
Wayne Taylor |
Racerx
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 01:30 pm: |
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Tell you what mad put the Nallins big bore kit on a S1W or an X1 see which has more power Then try to compinsate air flow on the intake side for the X1 wait you cant the they dont make injectors big enough nor larger throtel bodies, Unless you go head and have something custom made. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:05 pm: |
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Proper grammer and punctuation are good things. Nausia is setting in while trying to read the above posts. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 02:10 pm: |
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LOL u tell 'em Erik |
Dust_Storm
| | Posted on Sunday, June 02, 2002 - 03:52 pm: |
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Punctuation (and the lack thereof) is a curse of the long-winded. 
[Ds] |
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