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Spike
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 02:27 pm: | 
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Really not intending just to pile it on KTM here, but stumbled across this thread on another forum and thought it was worth sharing: http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/street-track/4322 0-rc8.html
Apparently it's not just us biased Buell guys who think KTM has missed the launch by hyping this bike ~5 years before it was actually released. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 03:23 pm: |
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The chassis of the RC8 looks like my old's CB1100F. It reminds me of Jap's bikes chassis of the 1980s. I am not impressed at all.
Also the point of welding the exhaust pipes together before the can, is like a regular tee ...... |
Elvis
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 04:27 pm: |
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As a fan of V-Twins, I say the more V-Twins the better. Finally it looks like we may see an end to the inline-4 monopoly.
When/if KTM starts winning some WSBK races, I think that will be great day for V-Twins in general.
. . . but there's a big difference between showing off a cool bike and standing on the WSBK podium. At the moment, the XBRR has more racing wins than the KTM 1190.
Here's something to make you go hmmmmmmm. Remember this article:
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/moto/worldsuperbik e/36668/?page=2
"Ducati has requested an increase in capacity from 1000cc to 1200cc for twin cylinder machines while four cylinder bikes would continue under their present rules and limits. Ducati would, in exchange, give up a package of special compensations intended to level the playing field between twins and fours under a universal 1000cc limit. Ducati is the only manufacturer currently racing twins, but KTM admits to preparing an entry and there are rumors of BMW and even Harley-Davidson via Buell entering 1200cc twins in the future."
Now I'm not saying that Buell will be racing WSBK in 2008, in fact, I'd bet my left nut they won't, but isn't that rumor . . . from April 2007 before anyone had even seen the 1125R more interesting knowing what we know now? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 08:23 pm: |
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Jens, I see there's a lot of underlying 'connections' between Kalex and KTM.
Could it be that Kiska were involved in the design of the Kalex bike?
I wonder who is the designer that penned it?
Rocket |
Jens
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 03:55 am: |
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Rocket,
the Kalex is 100% developed, designed and builded by Klaus and Alex. As engineers at Holzer Motorsport they have all the technologies they need there.
http://www.holzer-gruppe.com/portal/
Jens |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 04:06 am: |
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The reason Anony percieves any mention you make Matt, of any other brand, as an attack... might have something to do with the fact that every time you mention them, it's in context of an attack on Buell.
I have re-read my posts on this subject and can't see how it can be construed as an attack on Buell at all, which is exactly the sensitivity I mean.
Praise for other brand = attack on Buell?
What I have done is to applaud KTM on their new bike and the fact that they are willing to risk entering World Superstock so soon with the bike, and that they have big plans for it.
Subtlety isn't a strong point of mine, so if I have something to say about Buell that I think is relevant (good or bad) then I'll just say it straight as you know.
After all, this is a forum and not just an appreciation society.
Forum - a public meeting or assembly for open discussion
The Kalex is featured in this months Performance Bikes magazine, who describe it as 'The best bike since the Britten', which is high praise indeed  What a stuning bike it is too.
The chassis of the RC8 looks like my old's CB1100F. It reminds me of Jap's bikes chassis of the 1980s. I am not impressed at all.
It obviously works though, or they wouldn't make it like that. Nor would Ducati ;)
Also the point of welding the exhaust pipes together before the can, is like a regular tee....
I think that is just a balance pipe, and not the rear exhaust pipe at all. The angle it joins the front header is wrong for it to be a primary header pipe.
(Message edited by trojan on November 13, 2007) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 06:06 am: |
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Thank you Jens. Makes one wonder if KTM copied that bike. It certainly is a stunner. Dare I say Germany's best kept secret - until now 
Rocket |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 08:24 am: |
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The KTM chassis looks very different than the trellis frames of the Ducatis and MV Agustas. It looks very "basic" indeed. |
Jens
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 09:40 am: |
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'The best bike since the Britten'
Maybe I would agree with that if there is not an Aprillia engine in and if it had some more down knocking features...
Like the Britten had the fork or the monocoque.
But anyway for me the Kalex is, when you count were it comes from, one of the greatest projects in the last 10 years.
I told them they should use for the now starting series an 1125R engine...... (-:
The KTM is,when I look on the backround were the bike comes from, for me not the new hero.
Jens |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 01:10 pm: |
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Jens, I like the Kalex. It really does look the biz, as in fit for its purpose, as well as just looking bloody good, period.
Where the KTM comes out on top, rather obviously, is it's a road bike. That means the Kalex doesn't offer us a choice other than to support it racing. So, like it or not, what would be great for anyone is to see that the KTM engine is great as a road bike engine, and better still, to see if KTM can cut it in racing.
Before I get shot for offering support to KTM, let me just say this. If KTM can go racing in for them what is an all new category, and one at such a high level, and they are successful, that tells me there is nothing stopping other companies wanting to attempt similar in the future. Whether or not Buell will ever benefit from such 'invitation' I don't know, but KTM in racing, and doing well in racing, has got to be good for us all.
Rocket |
Jimidan
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 08:19 pm: |
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I have re-read my posts on this subject and can't see how it can be construed as an attack on Buell at all, which is exactly the sensitivity I mean.
Praise for other brand = attack on Buell?
Trojan man,
You have to remember where you are...this is the place where Reg Kittrelle said that the blind loyalty to the brand tripped his gag reflex...and no one, not one, dared to call him out for it or said he was being anti-Buell, or called him a naysayer, etc.
I would say that the new KTM RC8 bike is shooting for the same niche that Buell is with the 1125R...so there is going to be a backlash towards the competitor around here.
Frankly, I like the 1125R better on paper, as I have not seen (either) one in person yet. The KTM will be more expensive too, I would bet, if the price of the Superduke is any indication. |
Mcgiver
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 08:24 pm: |
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I agree with Rocket,and the more diversity in brands the better. Brian |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 09:53 am: |
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Interesting if true...
http://www.motociclismo.es/Deporte/ktm-rc8-superbi ke-ama-motociclismo-kw-noticia.jsp%3Fid%3D3358
Quick translation: Mitch Hansen will run a HMC/Red Bull/Pirelli KTM RC8 in the latter half of the AMA Superbike series next year.
I thought the 1200cc twins would be legal in 2009, not 2008, we'll see if this really happens. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 01:48 pm: |
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Matt, do we know who or anything about who will be piloting the KTM's in World Superstock next season?
I am right in assuming this is the same fiercely contested championship that Chris Walker has signed to Kawasaki for next year am I? Andrew Pitt, Broc Parkes and Fabien Foret also run in this series? Wow. World Superstock is fast becoming the streetbike series to watch.
Rocket |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 05:23 pm: |
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Hi Rocket,
Walker the Stalker, Tommy Hill et all have signed to do World Supersport, which is the 600 version I'm afraid.
Superstock is basically a big boys supersport, in that the only tuning allowed is to add race bodywork and exhausts (although pretty much every major team cheats of course, otherwise it wouldn't be racing would it?). In 2008 British Superbikes will run to Superstock engine tuning rules but with more latitude on suspension and cycle parts. I think that AMA will follow suit in 2009 but I'm not sure. Ducati won the Superstock title this year with the 1098 first time out, so the KTM should be right on the money straight from the box given its specification.
KTM haven't said who their team will be or who will ride the bike (although I bet their phone has been red hot this week!). If I had to have a long shot at a guess I wouldn't rule out Pauli Pekkanen or Kelvin Fry (leading runners in the KTM 990 Cup in Britain) as being in contention for the ride.
They haven't even announced a title sponsor, although the bike being covered in Red Bull logos may well be a major clue on that front. I would hope that they will get an experienced team to run it rather than straight from the factory, but again no information is forthcoming. I have been told by a very reliable source that the bikes have been testing in Germany in Superstock form for a few months, and that the team setup is complete, so we just need to wait for an announcement before we start engraving the trophies I suppose ;)
As an aside, KTM have announced that the Superduke series will again run next year, using the 990 Superduke R models instead of the standard bike as this year. It will once more run as a support race to BSB and as support to the British MotoGP. For just £8,500 (plus entry fees and tyres), riders will get:
990 Super Duke R (2008 Model)
Full Race Kit
Spare Wheel Kit
Gearing Kit.
Riders will need a Clubman licence or above to participate and with no further bike modifications allowed, the 2008 Battle should be even closer and hard-fought than this years.
Why don't Buell do this? It is a win-win situation as all the bikes are bought and paid for by the riders, and the series is incredibly high profile too. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 06:55 pm: |
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Ah that's Superstock. 600cc then. Not paid much attention to this series Matt. What's the significance of people like Stalker and those other class acts wanting to play in this series? Is there a higher goal in 600's these days, or are these guys riding where they can as they've nowhere else?
I think my friend Ian Popplewell (Poppy) is interested in the KTM series. He's jumped back on a race bike after a couple or three years absence. This season he's done a few rounds on one of those race prepped Kawasaki EN's. In his first outing he qualified 2nd behind the series leader. He's finished very respectably too. Not bad for a 41 year old has been, lol. You've met Poppy by the way, at Carnaby 2 if I remember correctly.
Ta Matt.
Rocket |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 04:07 am: |
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Does Ian Popplewell work at Kawasaki Newcastle? I know they have been racing a Kawasaki ER6 with some success in Minitwins this year.
The Supersport 600 class is taken very seriously by the major manufacturers and they all have factory backed teams involved. In fact there is more manufacturer involvement in SS600 than there is in WSB, and these days they design their 600 road bikes just to compete at this level.
The new R6 is apparently very hard work to ride 'normally' on the road, and even more focussed than the last incarnation. By all reports it is superb on the track so long as you keep the revs above 12,000 all the time! The new GSXR 600 promises more of the same.
They'll be bringing back two strokes next! (Yes please) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 05:17 am: |
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Ian's a plumber in Hull, but I think it is Minitwins he's raced in this year.
As for the 600's, I kinda knew manufacturers have heavy involvement in them, but from reading snippets in MCN it seems that there's a bigger interest from top flight riders than ever before.
I would imagine that up coming stars would be using the 600's as a stepping stone to more prestigious levels, but recently I'm getting the impression there are well known racers dropping down from higher levels to get onto these Superstock 600's, like Walker for example.
For some reason I had it in my head these guys were doing so because they were 1000's, but very close to showroom floor models, and with all the rule changing taking place around the globe for Super Bike I was assuming there was a keenness for manufacturers to race stock 1000's at world level next to Super Bikes. It seems though I've confused the 600's for 1000's. So is there a long term picture for the racers dropping down to 600's or is this becoming a place where they're put out to graze whilst offering the young guns on the way up a chance to race alongside once greats?
Rocket |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 05:17 am: |
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What about the 675 ?
Riders ?? |
Trojan
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 07:57 am: |
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So is there a long term picture for the racers dropping down to 600's or is this becoming a place where they're put out to graze whilst offering the young guns on the way up a chance to race alongside once greats?
A bit of each really. Walker was left without a Superbike ride, so WSS was the only offer he had I believe. On the other hand there are riders such as Tommy Hill and Jonny Rea who are moving from British Superbike to World Supersport with the promise of a World Superbike ride with the same team in 2009 if they do well next year.
There are not enough decent teams in Superbikes to give everyone that deserves a ride somewhere to go, so the options for younger riders are limited. Moving to Supersport at world level is seen as a step up from national superbike competition and gets the riders experienced on the circuits and with the top teams.
I think Triumph are yet to announce their lineup for next year. |
Ebear
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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Howdy Trojan...The Superduke series sounds like a great idea ,are these series broadcast in Europe?..Unfortunately series other than the AMA sponsored ones never get much airtime here in the States! They are , just now going to air this years Sun-Moto series(All Twins,3 classes,HP limited,endurance).I would think an all Buell,Superstock style series would be a hoot to watch,but likely unless major sponsors step up , wouldn't be very saleable.But maybe soon......
Which series do you guys get on TV there?Do they air the Superbike series from other Continents over there?...Just curious.. |
Vagelis46
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:03 pm: |
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In Europe we get live in Eurosport TV....
WSBK all races
WSS all races
Superstock some races |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 01:22 pm: |
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Ah Matt, now you're confusing me. Walker's going to Superstock?
Then you say Hill and Rea are going to Supersport? Do you mean Superstock 600's as I thought Supersport was the more showroom orientated 1000's, and that's what I thought Walker was going to. Now I'm even more confused, lol.
Is it Walker, Hill, Rea, as well as Foret, Pitt and Parkes all on 600 Superstocks?
Rocket |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:16 am: |
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The 600's are Supersports, with limited tuning allowed, whereas the 1000 equivalent is Superstock.
Walker has signed to do Supersport 600 next year with Gil Motorsports Kawasaki, and will be racing against the others that you mention above, so it looks like it will be another frantic season. They call the 600 class the 'axe murderer class' in UK club racing, which gives a clue to just how close and competitive the racing is.
Over the next few years I believe 600 racing will actually replace Superbikes as the number one series, simply because Superbikes are getting more expensive, exotic and irrelevant to normal people. 600's are already the mainstay of club racing around the world, making up the majority of club racing grids.
The 250GP class looks like it will be replaced with 600's within 5 years (stock engines with prototype chasis & running gear) thanks to Honda again putting pressure on the organisers, so it will become the natural feeder class for MotoGP. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:29 am: |
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I would think an all Buell,Superstock style series would be a hoot to watch,but likely unless major sponsors step up , wouldn't be very saleable.But maybe soon......
The clever thing abot the KTM series is that it is pretty much self financing, so requires no major sponsors to make it viable. Riders have to buy the bike outright before the season starts, although they do get a discount from KTM dealers. The riders also pay their own entry fees etc, so the only hurdle in a series such as this is get one of the organisiers to include it in the programme.
Having spent a large proportion of 2005 trying to get the Thunderbike series started and accepted here in the UK, I can tell you that this is te hardest part!
Luckily the KTM series was picked up by the organisers of British Superbikes and runs as a support race over 6 rounds of the season plus a support race at the GP. I think it is televised on one of the satellite channels but I'm not sure.
Buell UK had planned a similar series in the UK when the Firebolt was first released back in 2003, but that plan fell apart when they couldn't guarantee enough bikes would be available for the start of the season. Since that time Buell UK have shown no interest at all in UK racing unfortunately.
I would think that it would be easier in the USA to organise a 1125R Superstock style series, whether at AMA level or WERA, especially given the success in the US of the Thunderbike and Pro-Thunder series over the years. |
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