| Author | Message | ||
     Chuck |
Anthony, your bike is the same kind as mine; and they don't have head temp sensors. Those came out on the 2001 model, I think. . . but . . . don't feel bad; we don't need them anyway. Just use a 46 pilot jet to keep things "cool" at idle and keep your spark plugs "fresh" - - - It was 99 today; and I was stuck in traffic; but the carburetored, head temp sensor-less, non-oil coolered M2 ran just fine . . . and still kicked ass  P.S. who wants to race? | ||
| Bullitt |
Ken01 - All out performance belongs to carbs? Say what? Again, you have got to be kidding. Wooden wagon wheels have also been around for more than a hundred years, too. "Oldest" and "Best" are mutually exclusive things. JimA4 called this pretty clearly: The fastest racing motorcycles in the world are fuel injected. (GP, WSB, AMA SB, Top Fuel drag bikes,etc.) The fastest racing cars in the world are fuel injected. (F1, CART, WRC, Top Fuel, etc). It's no contest - precision fuel metering wins every time. So S + S, Patrick, Merch, et al don't use FI. No kidding. If H-D, a MUCH larger company with some pretty sharp engineers, had to turn to outside help from Delphi to get development assistance, do you really think ol' Nigel can afford to do this on his own? Finally, it doesn't matter if the engine has one cylinder or twenty - more power is the result of a good a/f ratio. | ||
| Jima4media |
Ken, A guy named Diesel invented fuel injection in the late 1800's. Look it up. It is actually older than the carburetor. OK is wasn't EFI, but it wasn't a carb either. The 1957 Corvette had fuel injection. And bracket racers are in the Special Olympics. Jim X-2.5  | ||
| Bullitt |
JB - if your M2 is an early '00 it may not have gotten the overheat sensor - it was a running production change along with the plugs and main jet. My M2 is a Y2k model and it has one. I'm sure the prod date cutoff is probably in the Knowledge Vault somewhere. If you have it, it will be a single wire sheathed in plastic coming right out from underneath the back of the rear rocker box. Then again, Chuck sez they don't exist, so mine must be a figment of my imagination. As for the debate.... I've restored lots of old bikes. My first real job was at a cycle salvage yard - trying to rescue the survivors. Bings, Amals, Strombergs - been there, done my time. Spark plugs in late model cars are harder to get at. Why? Because FI doesn't foul them anymore. It's a non-issue when they may only get changed twice over the life of the engine. You live in the Motor City and can't get 10 year old car parts? Down here, that's what everybody stocks! Those are the cars that are most likely to break and need parts.  If you prefer carbs, good on you then! But, to say that "it can't be tuned" or "it's unreliable" or "carbs make more power" is to remain uninformed. FI is the ultimate way to deliver fuel, and the reasons behind that statement could go on for pages. For sure, it's being proven in practice around the globe. The weather today is going to be gorgeous. I think I'll go ride.....once I pull the miserable choke lever and turn the fuel on!  | ||
| Blake |
How many carb related failures versus EFI related failures have we read about on this forum and others? I'm being very generous when I estimate that it's at least a twenty to one ratio with EFI related failures leading the way. Put the wrong additive in your fuel? There goes your O2 sensor. Put the wrong sealant on your header? There goes your O2 sensor. Sorry, the current system is way to delicate for my likes. Maybe the XB9R is improved in that respect. We'll see. | ||
| Blake |
Jim, Shame on you. NASCAR may race mostly ovals, but the level of skill and the danger involved should not be diminished. Those fellas earn every penny. I wouldn't run 200 mph into turn one at Fontana, would you? That's what the NASCAR leaders were doing last weekend. I appreciate just about ALL forms of racing. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
I guess the reason I originally posted the article is that HD/BUELL (and everybody else) has no choice, by 2004 probably all their bikes will have to be Fuel Injected to be sold in California. Ducati basically created the Monster 620 with fuel injection specifically for the California Market. Ironically, Buell can't sell their F.I. Firebolt in California yet. So F.I. is something that we'll have to get used to. I think Buell had the First Closed Loop (with an o2 sensor) F.I. system in a production motorcycle. I found the article very interesting in how HD developed their new system, and wondered why Buell did not adopt it, since it is an improvement over DDFI in my opinion. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
On the racing thing, believe me unless the rules outlawed F.I. EVERYBODY would have it, it's much faster to make changes, just plug in, program and go. With all the wireless technology, it won't surprise me if some F1 or CART teams can reprogram the F.I. while the car is in a pit stop or on the track! | ||
| Shot_Gun |
right on Blake!  SG | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Thanks Blake, As for the Head temp sensor i just took a real long good look at 2, 2002 M2 cyclones and no head temp sensor  And as for thoes parts for vehical 10 years and over go to a Ford dealer and try to get a Shift cable linkage for a 87 Merc. Cougar It took a lot of phone calls to find that part and it was used. But until one of these "miriacle" FI systems come out that are fool proof Wireless and have failsafe sensors then we will talk. | ||
| Sarodude |
Blake- That's a very interesting point. I believe PART of it is simply fear (who said fear was a result of a lack of knowledge?) of FI vs familiarity with carbs. The delicate thing issue... Is it truely something being delicate or people not knowing everything about what's going on? As an example, I fried a couple of high strung 2 strokers 'cause I simply ran 'only' 100-ish octane fuel. Did that make an otherwise bulletproof Honda delicate? FI may not yet be right for the enthusiast masses. I simply have a hard time understanding why it's been so slow to be adopted when (as someone previously mentioned) we don't even have toilets that don't have electronics. "Perhaps you need more fiber in your diet. Flush twice to automatically add Metamucil to your shopping cart." -Saro | ||
| Rempss |
Regarding DDFI, I have heard of no failures though many problems. Most of these once sorted out seem to be: 1) first generation mapping 2) failure to follow TPS reset rules 3) user induced; silicone contamination - O2, pulling wires out of sensors - head temp, moving from correct location - AIT in airbox, running out of gas Yes, carbs may be easier to tune once, but over time FI is an easier method to dictate precise metering of fuel over the full RPM range of an engine. This is not neccesarily true with DDFI, just FI in general, I would like to tune my ignition also, I can with my car just not my bike. Right now, still need to get that ECM apart. As far as replacement parts go, injectors have a 150,000 mile design life, all sensors except the O2 which destroys itself over time are pretty rock solid items. Most sensors are a simple 5v reference to ground, always have been, why would that change in the future? How long should items be available for obsolete vehicles? What was the design life of an 87' Cougar? Try to get on for a 1992 Cougar if 10 years old is your parameter. Perhaps fear is the biggest factor with Buell DDFI, but we must remember that this cross section of Buell owners is fairly small and tends to tinker all the time. Some just ride, never tinker, never rebuild, never have problems, never tell what problems they may have. I, for 1, have had absolutly no problems with my DDFI that I did not cause & fix. None kept me down for longer than a few hours, but I learned and will not do those things again. Seems to me that most problems on all vehicles are still mechanical systems, water pumps, starters, alternators, bearings etc. Maybe if the same technology was put into those versus new generations of FI, we may see reliable cars as daily driver for 15-20 years? Jeff | ||
| Johnnybravo |
My expectancy is not 10 years. That is the big 3s standard. My 87 is a drag car wich need some OEM parts cause they arn't made through aftermarkey companies yet, Like cabels and few other parts. And back in the 80s they were making cars to last now it is a throw awat generation As soon as you are done paying for you car WHOOPS time for a new one. Daily drivers that last for over 12 years HA my 94 cougar is starting to get its 100,000 mile problems finnaly, and after care that is worthy of a show car it is finnally starting to crap out, But hell i'm done arguing with you fellas it is like beating a dead horse, just trying to shoe the importance a carb does make for siplicity in design But hell what do i know i'm just a grease monkey  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Add one more item: 4. Many Buell engines leave the factory with the ignition timing set incorrectly........ I don't know if this is still true. | ||
| Rempss |
Johhny, I'm not arguing with you, just trying to offer another side of a discussion that has several distinct points of view. I don't think one needs to be either a grease monkey or a computer geek. I'm both, I do all of my own automotive / bike work myself. This includes carberator modifications I used to do, now sensor testing and mapping of computer devices used in todays cars / bikes. I think FI is a better system based on the same reasons you think carberators are better. I see simplicity in a different way, with an air/fuel gauge and a mappable system you can write a map that runs very well by the numbers at idle, cruise and WOT. No jets or tools needed when you add an air filter, pipe or 47cc to the motor to tune, just some electronics. Again, the part you bring to the table is a cable, how does this relate to the reliability or quantity of electronics in a FI system. This is an item that should have seen all the possible technological improvements to make it never need service, but it's the problem, not a sensor or electronic device. I have put 280,000 miles on 2 cars in the last 8 years, I have replaced 1 coolant temperature sensor. In the same time several water pumps, aleternators and 1 starter. Seems as though the electronics are rock solid. Not an argument, just my point of view.  Jeff Do we need a beating a dead horse icon? | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Yes we do need that icon, sorry it is just i see to many electroinc faliures that cause so much havic with diff. systems , bike and other. My buddies TP sesor re calibrated itself after a shop pinched the fuel vent line, i was able to re jet the carb and advance the timing a smidge just to make it to homecomming. I would hate to imagine what would have happened with FI, when we were on the side of the road with no Palm Pilot. An there are not to many buell shops around if your FI system "breaks down"  close enough | ||
| Gcpoland |
2002 Cyclones head temp sensor: Rear head, right above the intake manifold, you will see a wire disappear under the rocker box. This goes to engine temp sensor. All Cyclone '02s have it. Gary | ||
| Chuck |
Saro . . . dude ! ! ! you've got an electric toilet I must still be living in the dark ages. | ||
| Xgecko |
Jose, I've seen F1 cars re-map in a pit stop. it took about 10sec vs 8sec for a normal stop (they still changed the tires and added gas while they were doing it. Though the computer and the car were connected by cable. Wireless right now leads to too many connectivity problems with RF and such when it's in the open and IR doesn't work around engines that well. It was wild to watch though. | ||
| Rempss |
My intent is not to insult, it is to inform, please stop here if you do want to know. You definetly need to research the TPS "recalibrating itself", something else happened. Most likely: 1) TPS was not reset correctly the last time, or never reset upon the necessary conditions - Do you know those? Does the tech? 2) Fuel line was pinched, bike thought it ran out of gas - Do you know why not to let this happen? Does the tech? 3) Ran like crap, Adaptive Fuel never reset in the field - Do you know how to do this? Does the tech? 4) Take bike to the shop, reset TPS & AFV - Was it done right this time? 5) Bike runs great - Good. 6) Tech come up with flimsy excuse because he is just as unsure of what happened as you are - Do you want to know why? Does the tech? 7) You badmouth DDFI here because see 6 above - This is the breakdown on most dealers part with Buells, they don't understand or care. 8) People hear this, are ignorant to how it actually works and are afraid of "All of the DDFI failures" posted here - Have you sen that posted recently? Why? 9) I get damn angry because I keep my mouth shut when I don't know or open it to ask a question like others should - Try it, you'll like it. The fuel line being pinched did not recalibrate the TPS. This is more mis-information that causes people to give DFI a bad name. Please stop accusing before knowing the real cause. The TPS setting in the ECM is a "flashed" memory setting, it cannot be reset without the Scanalyzer. An old joke - Sherlock Holmes asked Watson while camping "tell me Watson look up what do you see? Watson responds "a very clear night sky, the North Star, a full moon" etc., to which Sherlock retorts "no someone has stolen out tent!" Look for the obvious first, then take wild guesses. Jeff | ||
| Djkaplan |
Interesting topic, not so much for the information presented but for the insight into some of the members here. I am floored by the statement that carbs are simpler and faster to adjust than FI. Perhaps on a single carb V-twin, but I can remember extremely tedious evenings making main and pilot jet changes on a bank of 4 Mikunis. Even something as simple as a needle height adjustment was a long drawn out process. It's funny; I remember when CV carbs came out, a lot of mechanics and tuners were aghast that the rider had no direct control of the carb slides. Any progress or change was always met with scorn. Mikuni must have made a fortune selling flat slide carbs during these years. I'm pretty sure Jim4Media was being sarcastic when he said NASCAR mechanics couldn't program a VCR. Most of the teams that have their own engine programs have a team of race engineers from the best colleges in the country. These guys aren't a bunch of yahoos from the sticks. Hell, even when they were a bunch of good ole' boys from the sticks, they were the finest tuners in the industry. Shame on that statement. FI is here to stay because it's better than than carburation. It meters fuel better and has more HP potential. It will only get better and more reliable. Years from now, people that resisted FI will be just like those old tuners who resisted electronic ignitions because they weren't as reliable as points. | ||
| Shot_Gun |
I got over 20k + miles on my carb and never had to reset any thing, Remapp anything ect. SG | ||
| Ken01mp |
well i made a post when i was inebriated and now am forced to defend myself. i knew the vette had fi, thats why i said "Electronic, not mechanical". so a lot of race cars use FI, think the guys that own them have money? think maybe, somewhere along the line, they need to be somewhat fuel effecient? ideally, precise fuel metering is needed for optimal power, this i know. my point was, they havent reached precise yet. EFI is still a baby compared to a carb. those race car motors with EFI were designed with FI in mind, the XL motor was not. okay, so the first hints of EFI in cars really began in the mid seventies, with computer controlled carbs, a total failure, then TBI in the 80's. my point is this, FI was brought into the car world at about the same time as catalytic converters and a little after smog pumps. EFI came around because the EPA was bitching about efficiency. not for more power, not for performance. EFI exists as we know it because it is more environmentally friendly. ill admit, i wanted the 101hp lightning, but when i heard it had a SES light, i said no way. i was a mechanic for a couple years and if the car wasnt in for general maintanence, it was a computer problem or sensor related. even more of it is a ploy by manufacturers to have more parts to cost more money to replace more often. God forbid something is cheap, reliable, AND performs well. tell me all about how all the fastest machines in the world have FI. then tell me how rich the owners are. then ill tell you im not rich, and ill tell you i dont have one of the fastest machines in the world. dollar for dollar, im getting more bang for my buck, and i know i can count on it. should it let me down, i can fix it, or try anyway. playing with fuel maps is probably fun. a top noch FI system IS going to beat a good carb every day of the week. but for my application, the carb wins. by cheap, reliable, simple, and im making damn good power for what ive done. if you have the money, and the time, and another bike, you can have your efi, but dont knock my carb, IT IS THE BEST FOR MY APPLICATION, maybe yours too Ken | ||
| Bullitt |
Jeff/Rempss Well said. Kevin | ||
| Rick_A |
I agree with the carb guys. On a streetbike...I think a carb is ideal. Get the bitch tuned and you're friggin' set. No worries about additives or sealants killing sensors...or recalibration that can only be done at a dealer. Racing...that may be a different story. My boss has an EFI truck...the incompetent service personel rely soley on their diagnostic terminal to chase problems. They end up replacing/adjusting component after component untill they finally get to the real problem. He likes being able to fix MECHANICAL problems himself, without the help of a diagnostic computer...and without having to go to a dealer. I feel the same way. | ||
| Johnnybravo |
Thank you Rick And by the way that TP sesor was on a BLAST so there really isn't a module to reset that was our theroy and a pretty damn good one on the side of the road Especially sience i talked to Eric who along with the Tech who i helped fix the bike with had no damn idea how the TP recalibrated itself, so you have three well educated men right there confused on ONE LITTLE SENSOR that almost ket me and my bro from going to home comming. Dont get me Wrong FI is great, I loved the FI i had on my drag car, But that was a V8 now a little v-twin that has one carb i'll take any day. like i mentioned before I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE FI ON A BIKE I WOULD ONLY CRUSE ON other that that carb is the way to go it is just like the belt vs chain drive theroy a whole can of worms each has its own advantages and disadvantages it is all based on what you want, need, feel better with etc. for all you computer geeks hell more power to you i would rather have Tubes in my guitar amp cause it makes it sound better than that digial crap same with records has a better sound that CDs but it is all about cost and preferance just like it is easier to go to track 3 ona cd than it is to move a nedle over same with FI it is easy for some to punch a few keys than to rip apart a carb, the way our society works now it is on convenc than old fasion hard work , in the imortal word of Dennis Miller, "Thats just my opinion I could be wrong!?!" so i have said my peice now it is for you to decide you hackers and monkeys alike have fun! | ||
| Dust_Storm |
2001 AMA Superbike 600 winner - Kawasaki, the only manufacturer of the big 4 to still use carbs in all it's race bikes, and still the champion. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of it had to do with the rider (Go Bos, go!), but it's still impressive that in the day and age of the computer, some of the most powerful engines around are still being run with carbs... My $.02 [Ds] | ||
| Rempss |
Johnny, You have a problem with a Blast sensor and use it as an example of why you don't want FI on a bike?  If you had a DDFI Buell the TPS sensor would not have done anything with a pinched fuel line, simple enough? If the fuel line pinched off, and the TPS sensor recalibrated iteself and there is no module to reset when this happens, do you throw the bike away after this kind of failure? All others, Like I stated before, my dealing with FI and related sensors has been a feeling of simplicity, measure the known sensor outputs, don't use silicone near the O2 sensor; still the only real problem that has been stated in protest of FI; and follow the path down the line until you find the offending item. You remember to keep fire away from gas, how hard can it be to remember to keep silicone away from the O2 sensor? The Buell DDFI (as well as most others) can be tested in the field for faults, it's in the service manual. It will tell you what sensor is at fault, you can see if it was an intermitent or a steady fault. But agian they don't go bad with any regularity, sensors have a very long design life, they just measure resistance and voltage. If FI is just a ploy to sell more expensive items, please explain why the most common problems with vehicles are still the old mechanical parts like I have stated before? I agree with the FI guys and the carb guys who can relate why. I really enjoy a good discussion. Could Kawasaki be better with a good FI system? Hard to know beacuase it hasn't been tried, all we have is speculation. Most things have more than one side, very few have a definite right and wrong. Jeff  | ||
| Aaron |
The TPS on a Blast is used in lieu of a VOES. It provides a signal to the ignition module that the ignition module uses, along with rpm, to determine how much advance to apply. It's adjustment is purely a mechanical one. The book describes adjusting it until a specific voltage is achieved at a specific throttle position. There is no electronic calibration as with the DDFI, where the ECM is taught what voltage to expect from the sensor when the throttle is closed. IMO, they should've done the DDFI's TPS like the Blast's ... then we could all do that adjustment ourselves, instead of needing an expensive instrument. Anyhoo, a pinched fuel line did not misadjust it. There's no electronic learning involved, it's mechanical. | ||
| Jima4media |
 OK you got me. I was just kidding about the NASCAR statements. Just seeing who would take the bait. And I do actually watch a couple of NASCAR races myself, Sears Point, because Jeff Gordon is from Vallejo, and Daytona, because, well, its Daytona. I also watch the Indy 500, although I dislike the IRL series, in favor of CART. I'm not one to defend Buell's DDFI program, but mine is finally dialed in pretty well, and is working reliably. After riding the Firebolt, I think that Buell has finally gotten EFI right, and future is so bright you gotta wear shades. I would like to see some user adjustability in the the future though, and without the need for a Scanalyzer.  Jim X-2.5 |
