| Author |
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Josh_
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 03:43 pm: | 
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You want a guarantee Buell will not improve the bikes? Why? |
Buellnick
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 03:57 pm: |
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I want a well sorted out 1125r. I fully expect them to improve their products.
I just hope the engineering and performance of the 2008 1125r is not compromised by a need to get it out... while they are busily working on the improved version in the back room for 2009...
There is certainly room for tweaks and improvements. For starters, the forks do not reflect the latest technology. Maybe the "1125rr" model can get Ohlins and the high tech Ti metalurgy/coatings... |
Josh_
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 04:07 pm: |
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You can out-ride the stock forks? damn.
Which Inside Pass day did you make? |
Bonjoxb12s
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 04:18 pm: |
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Buellnick, Anon has already said they plan to use this new 1125R as a "platform" for future bikes. My interpretation of that would be to look for an "s" or "T" version in 2009. If your gun shy because of the change from the XB9 to the release of the XB12 in 2003, I'd wait a year and see what develops from the 1125R. It should be very interesting over the next few years to see what Buell pumps out! |
Madduck
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 05:13 pm: |
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Buellnik, don't ever buy anything from BMW. The changes and tweaks between models even built the same year will drive you nuts. The software upgrades that the service staff will do to your bike while its in for an oil change can really affect your riding pleasure, ie pushing it for a ways. Software upgrades by not to attentive service personnel will be the next huge complaint in our little world. I've bought harleys and am learning to change my own oil.
Best of luck with whatever you get tho. Luv my ULY and am thinking of a 1125R to add to my buell LSR bike collection. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 05:23 pm: |
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>>>I just hope the engineering and performance of the 2008 1125r is not compromised by a need to get it out.
I can help with that.
The answer is they were not.
With regard to the forks the only thing you could add would be marginal cost.
On the other hand, if you are that small % of street riders who need/want more, I am absolutely certain no one will refuse to sell you a set of Ohlins front forks.
There . . . that was easy. |
Mikef5000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 05:56 pm: |
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There is certainly room for tweaks and improvements. For starters, the forks do not reflect the latest technology. Maybe the "1125rr" model can get Ohlins and the high tech Ti metalurgy/coatings...
I wouldn't expect a bike at $12k to reflect "The Latest Technology" of every part. 97% of the riders will be more than satisfied with the factory forks, and wouldn't want to pay an additional 2 grand for possibly slightly better Ohlins setup.
One of the reviews of this bike by a racer said that these forks are equivalent to the low end Ohlins found on all Ohlins equiped production bikes. (I say low end Ohlins meaning the lower end that Ohlins makes not low end in general). He also said that this bike would improve with the use of a rider specific set of high end Ohlin forks... just like any other bike in production. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 05:59 pm: |
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>>>I just hope the engineering and performance of the 2008 1125r is not compromised by a need to get it out.
I can help with that.
The answer is they were not.
We may be arguing over the meaning of words, but thats like saying if they had another year they couldn't find anything to improve.
Everything I've ever worked on has been compromised by the necessity to actually ship it some day. Thats just life. |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 07:36 pm: |
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Ohlins R&T forks, as used on the Yamaha LE R1, Aprilia RSV and Ducati 1098-S, list for $2000 retail. The Showa forks on the 1125 aren't free. Figure the difference at less than $1000 because of a volume discount. Buell should be able to sell an Ohlins equipped 1125 for under $13K. It's a tough sell to convince folks that Showa is equivalent to Ohlins. One rider saying so doesn't make it true. |
Josh_
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:00 pm: |
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But the Yami LE R1 with the Ohlis was, what $5500 more than the standard one? |
S1eric
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:15 pm: |
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I think Buell is using something entirely new with the forks.
This is from Cycle World so take it for what its worth.
" The Showa engineers revealed that they had in progress a new motocross derived 47mm tube-fork and that an advanced large damping cartridge, too big for current production forks, could be used in it. This 47mm inverted fork resolved the 1125R test concerns and became the standard fitment."
Sounds to me like Buell has really done a lot of R&D here.
Maybe we could get Court or Annony to chime in on the subject.
Also sounds to me like Showa has stepped up with a new set of forks just for the 1125R.
S1Eric
(Message edited by S1Eric on November 06, 2007) |
Sheridan_bueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 08:26 pm: |
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""With regard to the forks the only thing you could add would be marginal cost""
Sounds to me Court already did. But that's just me. I surely don't want to have to pay more for 'marginal'. |
Diablo1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
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"But the Yami LE R1 with the Ohlis was, what $5500 more than the standard one?
That's because they also added an Ohlins rear shock and a pair of forged Marchesini wheels.} |
Buellnick
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2007 - 10:20 pm: |
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Good banter...
So is it better than Aprilia? I think so but my only experience is with a 2004 Factory. The ROTAX comparo will continue ad infinatum...
FYI...I'm buying one. The money has been put forth and the dealer expects it to arrive in about two-three weeks. ...and my XB is my current fun bike!
w/r to never buying a BMW because...too late - already have one. |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 06:27 am: |
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>>>Buell should be able to sell an Ohlins equipped 1125 for under $13K.
People buy price not parts and it's a huge challenge.
In addition there are logistics problems. IF I were even considering something like Ohlins I'd start with these questions.
- Do it provide ANY better performance?
- What if I need 800 sets a month and Ohlins can only provide 600?
- What is the "Elasticity of Demand"? How many units sold do I loose for each $100 of price increase?
There are folks much smarter than I who are platting MSRP vs. forecast sales. For each dollar added there is an impact on sales.
Would you buy an 1125r that achieved a score of 94 on some imaginary scale for $12,000?
Would you buy one that ace hived a 96 if it cost $14,500?
I paid $17,500 for my 1990 Buell and was thrilled. In today's dollars that would be akin to paying about $36,000. I'd suggest that at that price making a bike or two a week will meet demand and Erik's kids would be paying their own way through college.
I'm not suggesting there is any "right" answer. But there are an entire team of people who do tons of research, study the market, the economy, the propensity to consume, how it's impacted by the national economy (oil hit $98 a barrel yesterday so I know one Bueller who will be buying!) and the behavior of the buying public. Frankly there are times where actually increasing a price makes something more attractive. . . anyone ever paid over $10K for a watch?
People are funny and in the USA motorcycles are luxury items, not utility.
Compare the sales of the $30,000 XBRR and the $11,295 1125r. When the XBRR came out there were a lot of folks who liked them but not a lot of folks heading the the bank to get money.
The XBRR has Ohlins suspension.
Showa, by the way, is really top drawer stuff and has gone to great lengths to work with Buell to make some astounding products.
(Message edited by court on November 07, 2007) |
Smoke
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 07:17 am: |
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damn Court,
that was a nice market analysis. the difference in the payments of an xbrr and 1125R on 4years isn't too bad(x3), but my banker said she would have some issues loaning out on a purpose equipped non street legal race bike. no questions at all on the 1125R, just how much, how long and who does she make the check out to.
counting the days!!
tim |
Brad1445
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:03 am: |
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as an option its nice. When I bought my 999 I test rode the S with Ohlins suspension, its worth EVERY penny, if you can afford it. Making it mandatory would not be wise, but what a GREAT option! |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 09:23 am: |
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>>>>if you can afford it.
There's the rub. Everyone here who would be willing to pay $2,500 + the $500 labor (pure guess . . I suspect the forks are more the labor a bit less) . . raise you hand.
It will be interesting to see how many folks, since these Ohlins forks are readily available, make the change.
Frankly, confessing my own personal weakness here . . I'd consider doing it JUST for the looks. The same reason folks pop $8,840 for PCCB or $640 for solid red taillight lens. . . Try explaining to your wife that you spent thousands to get teh cool red calipers.
Buell, to make the business model work, must sell to the folks who you and I know in the Buell world . . students, soldiers and real people.
Price, regardless of what our "dream bike" may be matters and a great deal of effort, time and $$ are put into finding really good stuff at a reasonable price. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2007 - 01:09 pm: |
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You are assuming that when you get the bike with it's magical Ohlins suspension, that you are done. It's just the beginning.
I was talking to one of the control riders at the Mid Ohio inside pass event. This was *not* a Buell guy, and while he thought the 1125r was a great bike, it was not going to get him to switch from his current brand. I asked him about suspension...
His comment was that the whole package felt as good as some of the factory Ohlins packages like that come on the Ducati's. My response was "thats great, it will make them more affordable to race". His response suprised me... he said "not really... neither suspension is up to serious race use... the Ohlins on the Ducatti are only good because you can take them off and sell them to a non racer for a lot of money, then put on the *really* good Ohlins that have been custom built for your exact weight and riding style. Expect to spend a few thousand dollars before you are done no matter what you start with."
I had to laugh, but it makes sense. A set of fully adjustable Showas custom configured for your weight, style, and preferences are going to be a far better suspension then *anything* you could get on a "production" bike, Ohlins or not. |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 02:00 pm: |
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Don't forget, but you guys are missing the point that most bikes equipped with Ohlins come with both forks and shocks. So the shock would add even more to the cost. A nitride coating on the forks might be nice as it would aid in reducing stiction as the fork legs are even larger diameter now (which should increase friction at the seals). However, I did not notice any stiction at all on the 1125R I rode at Streets of Willow, so they must have a pretty good seal and bushing design to work so well with such a large diameter.
My guess is that a set of dialed in/revalved stock Showas on the 1125R will pretty much rival anything else available, especially with the added rigidity of the 47mm tubes. Heck, I would lay money that Ohlins will even develop an internals kit for the fork, just like on the big four bikes (although I would think a dialed in stocker by a good suspension company would be superior). The bike may or may not benefit from a rear shock replacement (I thought the stock was fine), but most racers will probably change to an Ohlins or Penske rear to get ride height adjustment (at least I believe the stock shock lacks that feature). |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 02:11 pm: |
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Another feature that you pay for is forged wheels and upgraded brakes on the R1 LE and S and R model Ducatis.
The 1125R brakes are on a par with the dual radial Brembos on my Ducati 749R from my seat of the pants experience-perhaps even a little better as the feel is very progressive. As for the wheels, one major advantage Buell has is that all the wheels are the same. They are already very light, way cheaper than anything else, available in a myriad of cool colors, and you can even upgrade to a set of mag wheels from the RR if you want the absolute lightest (but those are probably not DOT approved for highway). This means that a trackday addict or racer can get a spare set of wheels for under $750. Try that with a rice rocket, or even worse, the R1 LE/Ducati S or R model. Forged Marchesinis cost a freaking fortune (hence I don't have the spare wheels I really need and I have to compromise safety by running DOT race tires on the street).
I would say however, that the idea of a limited edition 1125RR for example is very appealing, especially if it was still street legal. Hopefully anonymous is listening--maybe next year after sales take off? Ah, what am I thinking, Buell is going to be way too busy expanding and engineering sport touring and naked bikes based on the 1125R platform in my opinion...
Buell rocks!
(Message edited by XBolt12 on November 10, 2007) |
Doughnut
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 02:38 pm: |
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I will say yes to the original question. |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:35 am: |
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I have an XB 12 with Ohlins forks, rear shock and steering damper.
So I was very interested to compare the suspension on the 1125R with my bike, in the context of a rider who rides in the middle of the intermediate pack at most track days.
I was EXTREMELY impressed with the handling of the 1125R. The handling was much better than I recall that my stock XB was.
The only advantage I would give to the Ohlins was that it was a bit smoother over the bumps going into some corners, but it was no big deal.
It was clear that Buell and Showa made some big improvements in the development of the TT, and that progress appears to continue on the 1125R. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 10:22 am: |
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Jon:
Assuming . . . you are "interested" in an 1125r at the sub-$12K price. . . how would your interest be affected if it had Ohlins front and rear and sold for $16K?
Court |
Warbler
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 10:25 am: |
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The question was: "Is the 1125R better than Aprilia"?
Are there any Aprilia owners out there who have also ridden the 1125 who can give an objective opinion?
I'm curious too. |
Garrett2
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
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even if an apprila owner rode the 1125 it wouldnt matter - its all opinion. |
Warbler
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 12:44 pm: |
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Though they obviously don't exist on THIS forum, I am quite confident there are some people who can be relatively unbiased. Professional riders, perhaps? |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 03:58 pm: |
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From Apriliaforum.com:
http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php? t=130394
Well, the new 1125R is pretty darn nice , I got a full 20 minute session at Mid Ohio on it.
+'s:
-Gobs of grunt, very linear, the power is deceptive, at Mid O, it would easily power wheelie on the straights when you would get on it hard.
-Very well balanced, I was very comfortable on it within a lap or so.
-When they say "Quiet Zone", they are correct, the rider is encapsulated in a nice bubble, no buffeting,
-Sweet gearbox, but you would expect that from Rotax
-ZTL2 Rocks, massive brakes, with good feedback (I don't like the ZTL on my Firebolt, very little feedback)
-Different vibe than our V60's, the V72 has more of a pulse like V90's
-Fit and Finish looked good, but these are still all pre-production bikes, they have not rolled their first production bike yet, they said the end of this month.
-Suspension seems well sorted, front feels more planted than my Firebolt, most likely due to the larger Showas
-'s:
-Vague feeling when downshifting into corners, whether it was the slipper clutch, I do not know. Virtually no engine braking, like a 2-smoke, I came in hot to the Esses, dropped a gear, and expected a little engine braking, nope----all of us (STT Coaches) had this same comment.
-Looks, yes it is as fugly as in the pics, but we can't all be married to models (It would look much better with a full lower, then you wouldn't notice the bosooms, that shroud the radiators because they would be incorporated into the lower)
-Edit: Needs a pipe...........can we say whisper, let that damn Rotax Boom
That is it, I really liked it. Now would I pay 12k, no, but I have never paid anywhere near that much for a bike. Do I think Erik now has a platform to race |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 04:55 pm: |
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Another Aprilia rider, this one a Tuono owner:
http://www.bikerplanet.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7 194
Garry I Love that bike.. The Buell 1125.. Great ergos,power out the ass and handles like a true sportbike. I was actually riding it harder and faster than the Tuono. It is very forgiving and smooth. The tranny has excellent shifting and the motor just keeps making power. I tried to bing the rev limiter on the back straight but no luck. Or I scared myself .
The brakes are truly 1 finger, stop now.The instrument panel is very easy to see ,they had the speedo taped over you could only see the tach.The real experts liked the bike too.The pedals are adjustable and although I was a little cramped on the bike the footpegs were set for the average guy.Not a fatman.
They had groups that would ride with the corresponding classes for the rest of the people doing track day. beginner ,intermediate and advanced/expert. The Buell guys would let the others go out first then take to the track. 1 rule only,don't pass the Buell leader. Fat chance of that,he was quick,I mean fast quick.
It was a delight to ride these pre production bikes and be able to talk with the riders and engineers from Buell. They had a continental breakfast and free lunch for the Buell demo riders. Got a free T-shirt and knee pucks with Buell advertising on them. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 09:14 pm: |
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Whoever thought of the Inside Pass thing should get a Nobel Prize in marketing. |
Warbler
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 09:41 pm: |
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Thanks Steve_a, That's exactly what I was looking for! |
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