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Glitch
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 08:20 am: | 
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in any case this was not the subject of the thread originally.
Well since the original topic simply isn't, I guess you could say this is an open subject topic.
This is a good thread.
Yes there are whiners that get on my nerves.
Yes there are know-it-alls that get on my nerves.
Yes there are idiots that own tools.
Yes there are people that share information.
Yes there are people that help.
Yes there are smart people with tools.
Thus is life. |
Hexangler
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 05:20 pm: |
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Hehehehe.....
Hex |
Hexangler
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 05:44 pm: |
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ECMspy is a tool like any other in your arsenal. If HD provided it to the public, (which I have already asked and been told NO) it might be different. There is no rule that says you can't wrench on your own bike, change your own oil, or spark plugs. Why not reset your own TPS, and possibly learn how to tune out that nasty EPA PING that your bike came with stock? If I strip out a spark plug, I take that risk, and I don't expect warentee replacement of a head. Don't forget, there are a couple of sponsors (whom I gladly buy many things from) who offer similar software tuning tools for a modest price. I'm just grateful somebody was able to come up with a free hack. If you go to the Euro's sites, you won't find any complaints. Damb socalists, always sharin' everything. Hehehehehe.
Hex |
Starter
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 06:28 pm: |
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If someone is savvy enough to get hold of one of these cables, download ECMSpy, install drivers, reconfigure comm port settings and get the bike communicating I think they have proven themselves as capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.
For me, ECMSpy has been the biggest performance mod to my pinging XB9R since the day I bought it, and all it took was modifying 6 values in each fuel map, not rocket science but something H-D dealers have failed to acheive cause they simply didn't have the resources. In some cases all the TPS & AFV resets under the sun ain't going to fix it.
There is not a great amount of difference from installing a PCIII or Techclusion Box, your just modifying the values in the ECM not a piggyback. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:29 am: |
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ECMspy is a tool like any other in your arsenal. If HD provided it to the public, (which I have already asked and been told NO) it might be different. There is no rule that says you can't wrench on your own bike, change your own oil, or spark plugs. Why not reset your own TPS, and possibly learn how to tune out that nasty EPA PING that your bike came with stock?
+1 
HD doesn't even provide their own technicians with the level of training necessary to support out product line, much less provide us with the right tools to do it ourselves.
I downloaded the free software ECMspy. I bought the cable and plug and assembled them myself with helpful info from this site. I made some changes to enhance my riding experience. I tried some different maps from various sources. ECMspy and access to various maps and information are probably the most valuable tool I have for my Buell. It is just a tool, period.
Now before I went with ECMspy, I paid for the bike. I paid for the VDSTS software and dongle thingie. I paid for the key to unlock the ECM. I paid for a custom map from a great site sponsor.
My dues are paid in full.
I learned about all the negative feedback from fellow badwebbers regarding poor dealer service. Just like everything else, if you want it done right, you have to do it your self. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:57 am: |
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It's not the tool, or using it that is the problem.
It's using the tool to take a store bought map, and sharing it.
It's not illegal to rip CDs to your computer, it is however illegal to share the mp3s from the rip. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 09:36 am: |
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Huge difference between sharing music that is available from the music company (piracy) and maps that are not available from the motor company. If the moco offered different maps then I would agree totally. The point is the moco does not offer different maps for the customer, so we have to come up with our own. If I come up with a map on my own, I'll pretty much do with it as I please. The only reason I have not shared my map yet, is out of professional courtesy of a great site sponsor. Hell, HD charged me 185 buckaroonies just to install a stage 1 map on my softail, but if you check the HD forums they provide maps for any combination one could imagine.
Go figure. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 09:51 am: |
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So if I sell you a map I came up with on my own, you feel you could share it legally? |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:07 am: |
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After I pay 250 bucks for an ECM key, plus the cost of the map, and my investment in time to modify it to fit my specific needs, yes I do.
I know...I'm a bad person.
How much of the map would need to be changed, before I could call it mine? Who knows, who cares...The window of opportunity for technology never stays open all the time.
Ever share a recipe with someone? Ever hang out with the guys and discuss cam selection, carb and jet size, point gap and dwell angle? Same sheit, just more technical. How many cells do I have to change, before I can call the map my own. What size jets and what pressure spring do you use on the vacuum secondaries for your holley carb. Knowledgeable and respected tuners have been sharing information like this for years. Hell, back in the 80s I built a 351 roller cam motor from the specs Ernie Elliot provided to super ford magazine. Sure they keep it a secret as long as they can, but once the cat gets out of the bag that window of opportunity begins to close. Thats when you move on, build better maps, more detailed with better timing, adjustable fan temps..bla bla bla. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
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That is why I'll never sell intellectual property.
To much risk from too many people that think it's ok. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 01:11 pm: |
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Didn't mean to offend anyone, or encourage software piracy in any way, shape or form.
Bulletin Board Sharing/Internet Piracy- Albacea et al (2005) states that this infringement occurs when System Operators share (by electronic transfer) copyrighted materials on bulletin boards or the internet for users to download.
What was I thinking? 
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1. Be aware that everything you see or read on the Site is copyrighted unless otherwise stated and may not be used except as provided in these Terms and Conditions without a written permission from the Author.
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3. You use the Site at your risk. the Author is not liable for any damage arising from your access to the Site. Without limiting the foregoing, everything on the Site is provided to you "as is" without warranty or condition of any kind, either expressed or implied, including non-infringement.
The Author shall not be liable for any damage to or viruses that may infect your computer or other property on account of your access to, or your downloading of any kind of data from the Site.
4. Images of people or places displayed on the Site are either the property of, or used with permission by the Author. The use of these images by you is prohibited unless specifically authorized by these Terms and Conditions. Any unauthorized use of such images may violate privacy and publicity laws.
5. The Author has not reviewed all of the sites linked to the Site and is not responsible for the contents of any of them. Your linking to any other off-site pages or other sites is at your own risk.
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Slaughter
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 02:39 pm: |
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What Treadmarks posted above is CORRECT and has held up in court - remember the file sharing issues with music? The owner of the site was held responsible as enabling copyright violations... Napster, remember?
People copying and pasting copyrighted materials into a BBS are making the board operators vulnerable. EVEN if just "sharing" - doesn't matter if they're asking for money or not.
Not saying anything one way or another, it's just the way it is.
I can't for example copy and paste a good article here from Roadracing World. I can post a link however.
Like it or not, it's just the way it is. |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 06:25 pm: |
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If you want people to invest in better software or better ECM maps then you'll want to follow the copyright laws.
Remember, it's us honest people that have to pay for the jerk who is shoplifting!!!
Capitalism ROCKS!!! |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 08:36 am: |
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Didn't mean to offend anyone, or encourage software piracy in any way, shape or form.
Why would I be offended, when you were only proving my point? |
Gemini
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 09:10 am: |
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i've haven't read all the posts about this yet but, i don't think the ecmspy program has a copy right on it. it shows nothing on the website about copyright or trademark. with that being said, i don't think one person giving another thier personal map would cross the law either IF you are using ecmspy. now if you use a map from Al from americansports bike or if you pay someone to make you a map and then give it away, you would be crossing that line. now, i am not a lawyer and nothing that i said will hold up in court but that is my 2 cents. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 10:41 am: |
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If you pay someone to develop a map specifically for you, and by that I mean they beat up YOUR bike on the dyno for several hours and you paid them in full for their time, you own that map. Do what you want with it, you bought it. It isn't cheap.
If you pay a small fraction of the cost of map development by buying a canned map, such as the ones that we sell, you do NOT own it, and you have no right to give it away, sell it, or do anything other than use it on your bike.
It gets a little gray when you buy such a map, and then spend a lot of your time and money on changing that map. It is hard to say when it becomes yours. We start with Buell's map when we first put a bike on a dyno, but by the time it is ready for sale, it isn't the same at all. Which is not to say there aren't a bunch of unchanged cells in the tables, there certainly are. There are a bunch of cells that don't even represent real operating conditions, and we never even operate the bike there. Those cells don't get changed.
The time that we've invested in developing, refining, and supporting the customers that get them has to have financial reward or we just won't do it. With the advent of ECM spy and the reading of threads here, I'm rapidly reaching the point of turning my attentions elsewhere. Buell motorcycle parts and such is not my hobby, it puts the food on my table. If the stuff I'm spending a lot of my time on isn't making money, then I'll work on something else. If the open source community development picks up the slack, the Buell community is OK. If it doesn't, then we all suffer a bit from it.
Remember the golden rule, follow your conscience.
Al |
Ccryder
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
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Al:
You do define, very nicely, the difference between owning and just being able to use the map. But, as you said: "We start with Buell's map when we first put a bike on a dyno, but by the time it is ready for sale, it isn't the same at all." This truly is the gray area, how much has to be changed before it does not belong to the previous owner/ creator (I’m sure that the mega $ software houses have already waged this battle and determined the %’s)?
Personally, I will not run a map that was not developed by a reliable source, like American Sport Bike, on my M/C. I just won't take the chance destroying my engine (been there done that, with my S2, and it is NO FUN and $2000+ for the rebuild!).
My purpose (I can't speak for anyone else) of having the cable and s-ware is to be able to do a proper TPS reset, when I deem it necessary, and diagnostics if I am having problems.
Unless we are going to employ legal help to track down and prosecute people who copy and distribute these maps, our obligation is to warn riders that they could be doing something that could damage their engine and, performing an illegal act by distributing the intellectual property.
The service that American Sport Bike delivers to our community is very valuable both by the hardware that they develop and supply, as well as the software that they develop and supply. Please tread carefully on this resource, they are few and far between.
Neil S. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 11:20 am: |
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If you pay a small fraction of the cost of map development by buying a canned map, such as the ones that we sell, you do NOT own it, and you have no right to give it away, sell it, or do anything other than use it on your bike.
Well stated Al!  |
Hisxb
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 01:34 pm: |
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We are all adults here. People know right from wrong. If you want to be a Hero and share your experience and knowledge, then hats off to you. We desperately need all the sharing we can get these days when it takes two people working to pay the bills. Who has money for toys? Just remember though Al has a family too and if he needs some money to give us more goodies for our toys lets not abuse him. Someone who has more than enough money to build their BRAND LOYALTY (And you know are) should step in and help out us hobbyist. If we want too take it on ourselves to tune our bikes and risk blowing em up, give us the tools or make them affordable. I think if you compare our bikes to the Hot Rodding world you will get a real eye opening experience. I see some people on this site wanting almost $5000 dollars for a hopped up motor that only gives marginal increases (103hp/84ftlbs to 120hp/98ft/lbs). Someone will step up one day and make all this fun affordable and THEY will be the ones to get RICH. Someone else who sponsors this site quoted me $400 worth of dyno time PLUS the expense of getting all the keys and other hardware needed just to make my bike run its best. This is why we see all kinds of eye candy at the Buell gatherings but we all tremble at the thought of putting our bikes on the "Race Dyno Trucks" like the one coming to STONE MOUNTAIN unless we have money rolling out of our ars or no other responsibilities like a mortgage. The plain truth is it cost way toooo damn much to HOT ROD our bikes. My hat goes off to people like Otie who make things affordable, there just aren’t enough of people like him though. Everyone else wants to get rich off of selling a few parts and RAPING the few people out there who buy these American bikes. Just to keep it level: Don't want your "intellectual" property pirated - Sell it reasonably. You want more people developing after market goodies - pay them. My dream is to see about fifty more sponsors on this site |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 03:32 pm: |
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If someone put time and resources into developing a custom map, I have no problem paying for it. I just don't want to pay $250 for a key to access MY ECM. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 03:47 pm: |
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People know right from wrong
I beg to differ. If that were true, this thread would stop with the first post reminding people about Intellectual Property.
The fact that somebody thinks that somebody else charges "too much" for a PROVEN fuel injection and timing map DOES NOT give that person the "right" to copy and distribute it.
By the same measure, if I were to develop a set of maps on my own after a couple days on the dyno - and decide to distribute it and charge nothing for it, that's MY BUSINESS, MY DECISION. |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 04:57 pm: |
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If you don't want to pay $250 for an ECM key then you are welcome to design one all by yourself...
You can legally reverse engineer a product that is copywritten as long as you obtained all the information without going into the original copywritten unit.
This has been done by the computer you are working with now -- the BIOS chip was copywritten by IBM, but a number of other mfg's designed their own BIOS chip by inputting signals in the IBM and seeing the output. So they designed a chip to do the same thing as IBM's, without ever knowing how IBM did it. There are examples of the same being done with MS Windows as well!
Now you can do the same!!! Have fun... let us know how you are getting along with your new project... |
Tpoppa
| | Posted on Thursday, November 01, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
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If you don't want to pay $250 for an ECM key then you are welcome to design one all by yourself...
You can legally reverse engineer a product that is copywritten as long as you obtained all the information without going into the original copywritten unit.
This has been done by the computer you are working with now -- the BIOS chip was copywritten by IBM, but a number of other mfg's designed their own BIOS chip by inputting signals in the IBM and seeing the output. So they designed a chip to do the same thing as IBM's, without ever knowing how IBM did it. There are examples of the same being done with MS Windows as well!
Now you can do the same!!! Have fun... let us know how you are getting along with your new project...
Thanks for the sarcasm  however I think I would just use ECM Spy and save the effort. |
Hisxb
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 05:27 pm: |
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Al, Why don't you simply settle this whole ^$%^$&^$%^&$in thing and simply sell the whole kit key and all for a reasonable $250 and everyone pay the man and let's go ride. We all just want to have fun and before you know it their wont be any goodies for the XB's, you will have to give in to the complexity of the the "NEW" buells. GOOD LUCK working on that crap. Will Somebody please ask Erik for us why poor folks can't have a XBRR motor instead of hoses and "URIKA Hand Vacs" hanging off our frames? Who the hell said we wanted the Big Block taken out of our "AC Cobra" bikes and a freekin "Audi" engine anyway. If he HATES Harleys so damn bad put in a 'Ferarri" of engines like that new Aprilia v4 or at least a V-max motor. I will stick to my Ol "LUMP" thank you very much. I still love Buell, just wished they really loved us. Rex and countless others have practically BEGGED for an S3 alternative and all we here is "ULLY' which is more like a big BMW than it ever was a actual s3. IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE ????????? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 05:41 pm: |
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Wow. |
Treadmarks
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 06:04 pm: |
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Far out man. |
Sloppy
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 06:12 pm: |
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Dude... time for a beer...
The price of an object is not based upon what it takes to make it or what an "acceptable" cost is (that's called SOCIALISM!!!). The price of an object (or service) is based upon what the economic market will take. If you want to be profitable so you can make more cool stuff then you sell it for more money than it costs to make. If you want to be "nice" and ruin your business so you can't make any more cool stuff then you sell it for the same cost as what you built it for.
Everyone does the same with their pay right? -- if you can do the same job for $10/hr or $15/hr which pay rate would you take? Even if it's the SAME job, you'd still choose to be payed $15/hr, right?
If something is too expensive then you can:
1. get a better paying job or
2. make it yourself or
3. don't buy it |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 06:29 pm: |
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I have to take my hat of to a person who puts his financial gain aside to help an individual make the most of his chosen pastime.
The fact that ECMSPY took the time to enable Joe Average to tune his machine the way he wanted for next to nix is very commendable in my book.
There should be more philanthropists like that out there. |
Steve_mackay
| | Posted on Friday, November 02, 2007 - 07:57 pm: |
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Remember the golden rule, follow your conscience.
Unfortunately, many people consciencely challenged.
If everyone really followed their conscience, we wouldn't be seeing the Buell hats, sling bags, ya know, all the Buell freebies.... in the for sale section right here on Badweb & on Ebay.<sigh> |
Id073897
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 04:43 am: |
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It seems to me you're mixing up two different things.
If you take the ECM's EEPROM content and work with that, then you're working with some other people's intellectual property. This might or might not be illegal, I don't know and I don't care. I put two to three hours work into EcmSpy every day, so I feel that's enough to tell it's my own work. We had a helping hand here and there and know much more about the ECM as is disclosed to public. This is point one and aiming to full ECM configuration.
In contrast to that a map does not show any ingenuity. Or, to quote a famous saying, a map is 1% inspiration and 99% transpiration (read: work and effort). Why? Because it's a natural law. To get the right mixture the right amount of fuel must be delivered for a given VE. One might think about it as much as one wants, the numbers will always be the same. So I find it very difficult to talk about maps "belonging" to someone. They do as much belong to someone as the ability of an apple to fall to the ground due to gravity.
That customers/clients have to pay for "transpiration" needs not to be discussed IMHO.
Last point: you get what you pay for. A friend of mine is deep in the power commander business and lot's of pc maps are floating around in the internet. Most of these are pure shite. A good map that involved several hours of work and dyno runs is always a very individual map, just for that one bike it has been made for. This makes sharing maps senseless in most cases and this exactly is the business case for most tuners.
Regards,
Gunter |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 06:40 am: |
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Gunter,
Top marks for an excellent product.
It is not often in this world that I see such an unselfish act as yours.
Thank you. |
Sgthigg
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 06:09 pm: |
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What guage is the connector? 14-16 or 16-18?
Thanks |
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