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Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 07:12 am: | 
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Diablo1: My K1200LT also has a stainless steel exhaust system with a catalyst (a BIG catalyst) inside. The bike has 113,000 miles on the ORIGINAL exhaust system and it still looks shiny and rust free. Go figure! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 07:14 am: |
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Al: I think in Europe it took legislation to FORCE the aftermarket pipes to be compliant. That's probably what it will take in this country. Funny how I can buy a fully compliant, non-OEM exhaust system for my car from Midas or Meineke (and not have to pay dealer prices), but I can't buy a legal pipe for my bike from anyone BUT the dealer. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 09:43 am: |
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Well Jaimec let's see pics of your thin wall, hydro formed OE exhaust? |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:31 am: |
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What is the obsession with "Thin walled hydro formed??" If you can't make an exhaust from stainless steel in that manner, then build it DIFFERENTLY.
As my manager would say: Don't tell me what CAN'T be done, tell me how you're going to FIX the problem! |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 10:38 am: |
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Oh so your Muffler supports the weight of the bike as a jack point too, cool! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 12:14 pm: |
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Spiderman, you keep moving the goal posts here. Jaimec never said his exhaust was thin walled stainless steel, nor did he say it had to support the bike as a jacking point. What he said was that it has a CAT inside and has lasted 113,000 miles without any rust.
Personally I agree with him 100%. I don't care if the exhaust is hydroformed, plasti-formed or hacked from solid billet provided it is stainless steel and won't rust at the very first sign of a wet UK winter. Almost every stock Buell XB exhaust (including ceramic coated race kit items) that I see over here has rusted to varying degrees, even on bikes that are not used over the winter period. Ask any UK dealer how many mufflers they have replaced under warranty because of rust issues.
Take a look at the new KTM RC8/Venom and you'll see that they manage to produce a full stainless underbelly exhaust including CAT that still looks good in production form.
If Buell is committed to customer care and feedback as Anony says ( and I believe they are) then surely a weatherproof muffler isn't too much to ask? |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 01:02 pm: |
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Right, Matt. I don't know how my climate compares to yours, but I live on an island surrounded by salt water, we get snow and our roads are salted to remove the snow. I ride all year round, and up to this past May, my bikes have been stored OUTSIDE under a canvas and nylon bike cover.
As of May we've moved and the two bikes now have the luxury of a garage. But as I pointed out, the BMW has been mine and mine alone since the summer of 1999 when I took delivery of it from the dealer. Eight years later, other than the headers burnishing from the heat, the exhaust looks as shiny as it did that day I picked it up. No polishing, no grinding, no sanding required; just an occasional spray and hose down with S100 bike cleaner.
And you did point out one other thing that I forgot to mention. Even if Buell covers that mild steel with a new, bulletproof coating to prevent rust, what's to keep the interior of that exhaust from rotting out?
I had that problem with my 1993 Yamaha Venture Royale. There was an exhaust collector at the lowest point of the bike where the four header pipes fed into it, and from there into the two mufflers. It was chrome plated mild steel, and it always looked great until the interior rust rotted it from the inside out and blew a hole clean through the thin chrome plating. That was at only 30,000 miles. I sold the bike at 40,000 miles and it wasn't long before the new owner had the same issue with the replacement collector. I don't know if Yamaha ever corrected the problem with the new Venture, but it's certainly made me leary of buying another Yamaha product. |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 05:00 pm: |
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Moved the goal posts? Were not even on the same field let, hell we're not even playing the same sport!
You guys are trying to compare exhausts with one hydro formed cap, rivits, on bikes that MSRP at 20k!
There are tons of variables that I don't even know that could have influnced the decision to go with Steel vs Stainless. But I can tell you this, I know one of the major factors was price. The price of the pipe would have raised the price of the bike even more. Which you already said is high.
The 1125's muffler is a multi task unit that is unlike any other manufatures muffler.
It has to pass EPA nois and emmisions standards.
Has to hold up the weight of the 1125
Has to have a CAT in it
Has to use up all the available space TO accomplish all of the above. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 05:32 am: |
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The 1125's muffler is a multi task unit that is unlike any other manufatures muffler.
It is only unlike others because Buell designed it that way. Give me a good reason why it HAS to be different to all the others?
It has to pass EPA noise and emmisions standards.
As does every other manufacturer.
Has to hold up the weight of the 1125
Why is this absolutely necessary? There are plenty of ways to lift a bike other than using the muffler as a lifting point. Paddock stands for one. If Buell are so concerned about owner maintenance and practicality they would have fitted a proper centre stand and be done with it.
Has to have a CAT in it
As does every other manufacturer.
Has to use up all the available space TO accomplish all of the above
It doesn't HAVE to use up all the space, but it does.
Comparing the exhaust on the 1125 to the KTM Venom is valid in my view. The Venom will cost only £500 more in the UK than the 1125 and will sell to exactly the same group of customers. Other bikes in the same ball park are the KTM Superduke, new Ducati Monster range, Triumph Speed Triple and Morini. All of which have stainless exhausts as standard and cost around the same or less than the 1125 will in the UK. |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 06:57 am: |
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As I see it, Erik's bikes are what they are because so many parts serve multiple purposes. The mufflers are one of those. You could make do with a separate muffler, a lifting point or centerstand and a little add-on Cat for you poor badwords in Europe and California, but then you lose the 360lb kerb weight. Or maybe you drop the need for a lift point by sticking a padeye on the frame a pick it up with a chainfall. Padeyes are light.
Also of note, American Sport Bike's shoot-out has dyno runs on a bunch of systems. One system topped out around 85hp, most fell around 90 and one was up around 95. Not much gained, performance-wise. Guess if you want every pony you can muster, go with a Micron. If you want the loudest and don't care about losing 4 or 5 hp, go with the D&D.
Real point is, BMC offered two mufflers for the XBs, either one being a good choice at a good price unless you're bent on stainless.
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass if it's hydro-formed SS or not. BMC's race muffler was just fine on my XB, although it did have a little surface rust on it.
Make it perform well.
Make it sound good
Make it last 10+ years in New or Old England
If it's ugly, hide it in a chin fairing
Z |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:12 am: |
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It doesn't HAVE to use up all the space, but it does.
If it doesn't, it doesn't pass EPA, Euro II, ETC...
BUt I am sure you have a rebuttle for that too. You win I give up, I bow to your super engineering smartness! |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:28 am: |
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Spiderman, I am not trying to score points here. What I want to know is why it HAS to fill all the space to pass EPA, Euro III etc. There are many ways of doing that without building an ugly mild steel muffler surely?
Having a muffler that doubles as a jacking point is all very well but no good at the side the road unless you carry a jack in your pocket. A separate centre stand would address that problem and releae the muffler to do just the job it is designed for.
We are very much aware of the Euro III noise regs here in Europe, but there are other manufacturers making mufflers out of stainless that pass all the current and future regs whilst still making stainless mufflers with Cats in place and without sacrificing looks or weight.
Remus already make the XB header pipes for Buell I believe, maybe they should have been given the job of designing the muffler as well? |
Rwven
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:36 am: |
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If you prefer the Venom, buy the Venom. If the 1125R isn't different why bother building it? Buell's particular design philosophy drives what Buell sells. If you don't get it or don't like it there are other choices. Viva La Difference! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 08:49 am: |
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I find it hard to believe that the talented engineer Elves in Wisconsin find it so difficult to deal with a problem as mundane as rust. It's not like ferrous metals just started developing a corrosion problem a couple of years ago... |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 09:07 am: |
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I know, I mean really, I am surprised the auto companies haven't caught on either I mean really A car that rusts! I will not stand for their insolence!
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Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 09:41 am: |
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None of my Subarus have rusted. I had a 1988 GL Turbo wagon for 13 years, and my 2001 Outback is still rust free as well. So someone HAS figured it out.
Oh, my cars get far less attention than my motorcycles. They also get driven in the WORST weather (snow, ice, rain storms, etc) because if the weather is even half way decent, I'm on a bike. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:46 am: |
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Man,you guys would argue over whether water was wet.
Go ride or work on a bike. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 02:00 pm: |
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I'm with you, Firemanjim. It's better to burn out, rust never sleeps anyhow! Hey, hey, my, my. Just rock that bitch down the road and quit whining! |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 03:30 pm: |
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I don't know about you guys but I have an S-2 with the shock off getting serviced,an S-1 with forks getting the same and in need of getting started after years of sitting, and there is this beast of a Bonneville bike that is finally taking shape but still needs hours and hours of labor to get it fired the first time--got a sexy billet throttle body in my hands putting sensors and linkage on right now.
And then the 4 vintage bikes in the restoration process.
Oh, and did I mention it is going to be in the mid 70's all week----
No time to spend arguing minutiae. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 07:56 pm: |
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It's better to burn out, rust never sleeps anyhow! Hey, hey, my, my. Just rock that bitch down the road and quit whining!
Neil Young and whining do seem to go together... |
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