| Author | Message | ||
     Bearly |
I have hydro form micron pipes for my Uly, Now just he pipes are hydro formed Stainless. The Muffler as you all know is welded can. Now this whole thing cost the better part of 900 dollars including shipping from my prospective. I can only image what it would cost if the muffler had the shape of the on the 1125 with all the internal chambers and be of sufficient strength to support the bike as a jacking point. I would imagine it would double the price. I'm not too bright, but that seems like a large percentage of the current list price of the bike. Having a small manufacturing background, I know that you can engineer a product for ever. You can always make it better. Improvements don't always cost more but most of the time they do. As your development increases so does your cost. So you have the get the money back in so many ship sets. And extended period of refinement may price the final product out of the range of your intended customers. Back seat quarter backs always have the advantage. But during the process of development someone has to say, "Ok, that's it. Freeze it, build it". I think if the new 1125R was going to cost me 15k, I would be looking at the 1098 (if I wasn't so damn nationalistic). My hats are off to BMC. I really appreciate the apparent level of quality (I haven't seen mine yet) and engineering that went into the new bike. I think it's a great balance of Price VS Performance. People will change parts on anything to suite their own options on how something should be or to just make it look unique. But hey, that's what AmericanSportBike.com is for. | ||
| Jaimec |
In case you haven't noticed, EVERY exhaust system in the American Sport Bike catalog says "For off road or competition use only." That is unacceptable. | ||
| Ratbuell |
"That is unacceptable" No...that is what you get when you buy an aftermarket exhaust that has not been through EPA emissions and noise testing and certification. | ||
| Trojan |
A lot of aftermarket exhausts (and other parts) will have 'not for road use' or 'competition use only' on them, and this is to cover the manufacturer against any claims from customers in the event of damage etc. In the USA there doesn't seem to be any way of marking an exhaust to show it is road legal, and just about every state has different requirements. However there are now more and more aftermarket pipes appearing on the market that are fully road legal in Europe and are marked as conforming to European noise and pollution requirements. These are referred to as 'E marked' and will invariably have removable baffles in the tail pipe in order to achieve the 96db standard for Euro rating. Pure 'race cans' are now in the minority over here and are getting rarer all the time. Spiderman, I think you are splitting hairs now. You said that you couldn't hydroform stainless steel, now you say that Micron doesn't count because it has rivets in it! The Micron can has rivets in it to enable the user to repack it when required. If they wanted to build a more traditional 'baffled' muffler they could still hydroform it and not use rivets. Take a look at the Remus Revolution Buell exhaust, not a rivet in sight. Obviously making a stock motorcycle exhaust has far more design restrictions placed upon it because it has to pass laws in every country, last a reasonable time (ahem!) and be relatively cheap to mass produce, so a stock pipe will very seldom be as light or even as well made as the best aftermarket cans available. However, even though the factory has to take all of the extra parameters into account, I still think that it is unacceptable to sell a new bike in 2008 with a mild steel exhaust. Regardless of what it is coated in on the outside it will still rust from the inside. | ||
| Spiderman |
now your splitting hairs. I never said you could not hydro form stainless. I did say you could not hydroform stainless to the spec/shape/price Buell needed/wanted. If they wanted to build a more traditional 'baffled' muffler they could still hydroform it and not use rivets OK lets see it... | ||
| Jaimec |
Ratbuell, unfortunately every exhaust in the American Sport Bike catalog is significantly louder than stock. The only place you can buy a "quiet" aftermarket exhaust appears to be from Europe (where they have "E" certified mufflers for street use). Although these are legally NOT acceptable for street use in the USA, you are not likely to get pulled over and checked because these exhausts are QUIET and don't call attention to the owner. Unfortunately, ordering these exhausts from Europe is VERY expensive (and problematic thanks to Homeland Security). Since no American supplier seems to feel there is a market for these exhausts, there is no easy way to get them either. I know Matt sells them, and ships to the States, but remember what I said about costs and hassles (I've ordered direct from European companies before and it's more trouble than it's worth). I am sure envious of our European brethren for their wider choice of accessories, though. | ||
| Ratbuell |
"Although these are legally NOT acceptable for street use in the USA, you are not likely to get pulled over and checked because these exhausts are QUIET and don't call attention to the owner. " I don't see how this is different from the American Sport Bike stuff. Not legal is not legal. Even if E code systems were available in the US, they would still have to have the same "not legal for street use" disclaimer. To date I haven't seen a "this muffler is mostly OK to use on some roads sometimes if you behave" warning on a box...they either are or they aren't. And for the record, I have yet to get stopped for a noise violation with either my Supertrapp or my SS2R. Neither of which is technically "legal"...actually, now that I think about it, neither are the S/E II slip-ons on my FLHP. No tickets there either though. <shrug> | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Jaimec... In case you didn't know, Harley does the same thing with their mufflers. It's not unacceptable, it's what they have to do in order to cover their end thanks to the EPA. I suggest that you get in good with your dealer, because THEY will be the one that will stand behind the product they install and service. | ||
| Blake |
Hydroforming is cool. I like super-plastic forming too. I bet if you invested enough into R&D, you could find a way to economically superplastically form a complete 1125R muffler, including the inner chambers, all in one shot. How cool would a superplastically formed integrally stiffened titanium alloy frame/fuel tank be? And how unbelievably lightweight could it be?  And once the tooling is complete, how cost effective (no hand welding) could it be? This might make a good subject for a mechanical engineering doctoral effort. Sure would turn the motorcycle sport bike world on its ear. If I had lots of spare funding, I'd do that kind of stuff for fun.  Need more BadWeB sponsors, a couple thousand or so should suffice.  | ||
| Jaimec |
Sometimes I think you people read only every other word of what I post, and then respond to what you THINK I said. Bonjoxb12: Show me the accesory exhaust systems for Buell FROM Buell in their catalog online? The only exhausts they sell are to licensed racers. Unless you're suggesting a set of Screaming Eagle Exhausts for a Softail Springer will just bolt right on to my XB12Ss?? Ratbuell: How is this different? Again, EVERY SINGLE EXHAUST in the American Sport Bike catalog is significantly louder than stock!! The "E" certified exhausts in Europe are as quiet if not more so than stock. | ||
| Court |
Jaime: I agree. It USED to be that the world played a tongue in cheek game of "for off road use only". Than ended a couple years ago and you will now find, in the HD catalog, a host of tiny little stop light icons signifying "legal for use on the road". The "crossed flags" (for competition use only) are still in the legend but with damn few products. We are now living in a world where if I get caught the first question is "who made it" and the manufacturer (HD has deeper pockets than I) gets drug in under the doctrine of strict liability. If you doubt this . . and I know you are aware of what I am talking about . . come to New York City (with our new noise ordinance) and test your pipes.  | ||
| Court |
Hehehehe . . . and the world's largest concentration of "black hyper-pursuit" cars . . . they are starting to get some REALLY trick new Dodge's with "significantly enhanced" performance . . . | ||
| Ccryder |
Blake: I used to play around with "super-plastic-diffusion-bonding" in the 80's. If I tell you anymore.................... someone may  . But it was fun and we could do some WILD'n CRAZY stuff with materials that were not supposed to do this, that or, the other. Hint: Some of those crazy shapes and mat'l are flying today and we don't even know it................ Later Neil S. | ||
| Jaimec |
Court (and any one here from the NYC Metropolitan area): The AMA District 34 organization has a dB meter from the AMA that they will lend to AMA chartered clubs for sound testing, if you are curious to see how much in compliance your current exhaust system is. A couple of years ago a local ABATE group held an event where people could get their exhaust systems checked. It was actually co-hosted by a local police department who did NOT hand out summonses if you failed, but did hand out Certificates of Appreciation if you passed. I don't think a lot of people realize yet just how serious an issue excessive exhaust noise has become until they've been pulled over and cited. A lot of these same riders are finding that their local motorcycle organizations are not as sympathetic to their plight as they have been in the past, either. | ||
| Dre99gsx |
Court, That photo of 4 PD vehicles was a "routine" stop of a motorcycle exhaust noise violation? WTF, I thought NYC was in dire need of officers due to terrorism and cime, yet they have enough time on their hands to enforce a noisy motorcycle. Crown vics had been too easy to spot from behind. Now with the influx of chargers, most of which are completely unmarked, we are in for a rude awakening. Long gone are the days of "enjoying" your ride. Everytime you look behind you for any crownvics to determine if you can twist the wrist a bit, you now have to question if that hyundai elantra behind you is an unmarked cop. Sheeshh.. I hope we can use the "It didn't look like a cop to me, so I didn't stop" excuse in court... | ||
| Reepicheep |
I saw the Green Audi's in Germany, parked along the Autobahn standing behind a Harley, with an officer holding a dB meter. The Harley guy did not look happy. The irony was that because of some loophole, US servicemen on base could ride their straight piped Harleys and get away with it somehow... it was never quite clear to me how. | ||
| Ratbuell |
"How is this different? Again, EVERY SINGLE EXHAUST in the American Sport Bike catalog is significantly louder than stock!! The "E" certified exhausts in Europe are as quiet if not more so than stock." I didn't take issue with the quietness part of the statement, I wholly believe you. What I was pointing out was your own words about the E systems: "The only place you can buy a "quiet" aftermarket exhaust appears to be from Europe (where they have "E" certified mufflers for street use). Although these are legally NOT acceptable for street use in the USA" What I focused on was not every other word, but the "legally NOT acceptable" part. Regardless of dB levels, illegal is illegal and that was my only point. I'm not a Holy Roller, either, as all my bikes (and my wifes' bike) have aftermarket exhaust systems that are "not legal" for public use. Court, et al: yes, you want to watch out for the LX cop cars (Charger/Magnum). My wife and I have the civilian version (Magnum R/T...with an aftermarket SLP Loudmouth II exhaust, go figure, LOL) and 5.7 Hemi. My wife won't let me drive it anymore. It's too damn fast for me, she says...or she said I never behave myself. Something like that. From what I understand the LEO versions have a different ECM and TCM, for better shifting, more power, and taller top end. They also have a better "fun" button - the civvy cars have "ESP Off" (traction control) but it only limits it for a little bit and then big brother steps in anyway. LEOs get a *real* OFF button for the ESP. Why should they be allowed to have all the burnout / donut fun?? Even "civilian stock" they scream - think twice before you try and duck away from one of these badboys. www.lxforums.com has a lot of info on all of them; they're nearly as rabid as us Buellers! | ||
| No_rice |
hell, i dont care what the stock exhaust is like. im putting straight pipes on it as soon as i get it anyway...  | ||
| Court |
I got an entire collection of "bike stop" pics last week. | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Jaimec.... obviously you didnt really read what I said either. Show me all the options for Harley.... out of all the different bikes they have, only 1 set of pipes will be "legal". My point was you have to consider the source. Who owns Buell? Before you complain about what they aren't doing, you should look at what they CAN do. I'm sure Harley gives some gray area to work with, but when it comes to EPA and exhausts I am confident that their leash is a very short one. I'd love to have anony dig in a little deeper on this topic if possible . | ||
| Bonjoxb12s |
Also, when looking to compare our products with the European market your comparing apples to oranges. The idea behind all products is that in order to make them, there HAS to be a demand for them. Lets face it, Buell isn't and hasn't been the most popular in the US... the tides might be changing, but that's still a fact. European's have more options simply because they have a greater demand for them. My personal opinion is that the new 1125R will radically change the market, and you'll start to see more manufactures jump on board for some aftermarket materials. | ||
| Diablo1 |
Here's a different bike with a stainless steel exhaust with catalytic converter. Gee, how is this possible?  | ||
| Joee |
Servicemen can get away with that because all their bikes and cars are plated and inspected under a relaxed standard of the German Tuv inspection, therefore they carry american plates. However, the old american status of forces agreement is going away and now american service members will be plated in the nearest city under the same standards as the average german citizen. | ||
| Anonymous |
Diablo, care to tell us WHERE the CAT is located? And I wouldn't exactly call that muffler mass centralized, would you? | ||
| Diablo1 |
"Diablo, care to tell us WHERE the CAT is located? And I wouldn't exactly call that muffler mass centralized, would you?" I don't know where the CAT is located, and no it's not centralized, but centralized has nothing to do with making the muffler out of stainless steel. The whole point is this is a SS stock muffler on a new 2008 model that meets all the EPA and safety rules for the US and Europe. Would you admit it kind of looks good too?} | ||
| Anonymous |
Diablo, yer killin me! Uncle, I give up! Yow win, you are the holy grail of motorcycle engineering. I bow to thee. Please have mercy on me...you know more about motorcycle designs than all the elves in ET combined. (how's that for sarcasm?) Let's get on with our meager lives and talk about something else, since you are are steadfast in your belief that the Buell execution is flawed. It is what it is. We always will, and forever will, endeavor to deliver the product that we believe will delight our customers with excitement and sound engineering execution at a competitive price. Honestly, we can't please every soul on this wonderful road to motorcycle nirvana! ROCK ON!  | ||
| Imonabuss |
Actually, Diablo 1, I think it looks pretty hideous, like something welded together out of a junkyard on one of those old shows where you had to build something out of what you could find. And then the bodywork was made out of pieces of cardboard. I'll take my 1125 when it comes, and gladly pay more than whatever that thing costs!!! | ||
| Al_lighton |
"...that is what you get when you buy an aftermarket exhaust that has not been through EPA emissions and noise testing and certification." Yup. Dat's da facts, jack. Add the legalities associated with selling non-approved for use on the street, and it is a no brainer why they must be marketed that way. Fact is, I'd love to offer some quieter alternatives from Europe or elsewhere. But until they are available and distributed in the US by one of the bigger distributors with their import shipments subsidized by the profit generated by selling to the big 4, it isn't likely to happen. The market doesn't well support it. Shipping large orders of expensive, heavy, and physically large exhaust systems doesn't play out well unless you're getting some pretty serious price breaks on them, and that only happens with big quantity orders. Exhaust systems are expensive, large, and heavy. They tie up a lot of capital, take a lot of warehouse space, and frankly, doing business across the pond can be a royal pain in the ass. The few products I do bring in from across the pond often take more of my time and effort than they are worth. If the demand was there, it'd work, but it isn't at this time. Buell does a damn fine job of making an exhaust pipe that is both quiet and doesn't decimate the power band. Folks that want that tend to leave it stock. The folks that want more power and/or more noise drive the market at this time. Maybe that will change, but until it does, there is no financial incentive to bring those type of exhaust systems in. It is relatively easy to make power with no noise constraints. It is relatively easy to make power at specific places in the power band while sacrificing it somewhere else in the power band. It is incredibly difficult to make power across the entire band and do it while meeting EPA drive by noise test requirements, or even close to them. It takes a lot of R&D and $$ to get there. The 1125R muffler may not be a thing of great aesthetic beauty, but it IS and engineering masterpiece if you ask me. Besting it will NOT be easy. I'd love to see it in stainless, but I'm not sure the market would support the extra $$ it would add to the bottom line of each bike sold. I can't wait to see what Kevin and Micron come up with, though. | ||
| Killakella |
I totally agree with you Al, my guess is that most people will go aftermarket for looks and sound rather than outright power. | ||
| Smoke |
i like the way it looks, it just needs to be coated RED!! tim |
