| Author | Message | ||
     Ducxl |
Spike..Cycleworld November '07 KLR650 feature article calls it that way.Read it. | ||
| Court |
The KLR is a tank. . . it has it's weaknesses. . . . but lack of appeal is not one of them. I'm starting a new KLR project in about 4 weeks. The KLR has just pretty much been "mostly right" for the entire however many years it's been essentially unchanged. I'd love to see the BLAST enjoy a 15 year production run. | ||
| Court |
Or need for any . . . although, as a huge KLR fan, I am aware of the MAJOR improvements that were made but never very obvious. I have two KLR frames and motors sitting here next to my desk . . . just wait.  You think I had fun with the last one.  | ||
| Doerman |
You should've mentioned the massive failure in the field of Ducati rocker arms on '96-roughly '03 4 valvers. But at least they "good will" replace them and have reduced the price per from $140 ea. to $45. ea. They acknowledge,and accept responsibility for their manufacturing defect. Maybe they learned from the voltage regulators in the 90ies that stranded many of their customers. There was the problem with the hydraulic clutch as well. Well, all manufacturers have their ghosts of the past. And Ducati has stood by their products better than many. I don't get it though, Buell is doing their darnedest on the pre-prod bike to get them as sorted as humanly possible - belts included - and it seems to me you are criticizing that. I'll have to chalk that up in the "go figure" column. Asbjorn | ||
| Jlnance |
You know, if you adjusted the size of both the front and the rear sprocket, you could use the same length belt. It might even be as simple as take a tooth off the rear for every tooth you add to the front. You might have to adjust the idler. | ||
| Ducxl |
and it seems to me you are criticizing that. Well,how many redesigns do we have to endure before they get one robust enough not to fail? I already asked that.How many consumers must suffer failure and "oh,we redesigned that and it's improved". I thought they applied "FEA". I criticize that.And of course the MASSIVE failure in the field of r model headlights with no rectification.So what is going to be the 1125r models XBr headlight type defect that BMC will deny the consumer a solution? I absolutely LOVE my Buells'(plural) but i will not write BMC a blank check to send crap into the field | ||
| Reepicheep |
I like mt KLR-250 a lot... but "perfect" ain't one of the adjectives I would use to describe it. Every time I fix some broken bit of it (and thats pretty often), I note that my Buell has a superior solution to the particular problem at hand, or better executed the same solution. What! Kawasaki has a new KLR! I hope they are going to step up to the plate and upgrade all us 1985 KLR owners they were experimenting on with these unrefined parts and designs! I'll be watching for that green semi to pull up in the driveway, Kawasaki executives and workers watch and respond to internet forums, right? ;) | ||
| Rd3501 |
I have to agree with Ducxl that the 2008 1125R will come with problems just like 2003 on the XB and Buell will just move on past everyone and go on with the next year. I would suggest that if someone was going to buy a 1125R I would wait until the 2nd year and get the newer/improved/super improved belts.. So how many updates on the belts since 1995? 8 or is it 9 different belts???? Wont even get going on headlights, side stands, stators.... | ||
| Doerman |
Gee whispers guys... You complain about Buell's past and then complain about the effort Buell has made to ensure the 1125R is the best it can be. I simply don't get it. No motor company has done what Buell has done to ensure the 1125R quality. As an aside, in my past I worked for a major software company. I and some others in the company had the bright idea that we should invite customers from across the world and different industries to test it before we released it. And oh yea, have the customers bring their own real world data to make it as realistic as possible. We did. Well, needless to say the customers found problems in the software we had never thought about. It caused a 2 month delay in the final release. However it was the most successful software release we've ever had. And the customer final testing became a norm after that. Buell has done the same thing in the journalist and customer testing (Inside Pass). It has caused Buell to delay Job One (and that, by the way is a painful decision to make!). It proves to me that the company wants to produce the best product possible for us - the consumer. This is really unprecedented. I recognize it since I've been through it myself in a different industry. I am certain Buell has done the right thing and it will pay dividends for all stakeholders: Buell owners of tomorrow, Buell employees, and investors. Asbjorn | ||
| Unibear12r |
Seems like some people have to vent no matter what to be happy. Seems to me BMC is dedicated to bringing the best product to market that they can, when they can. Seems very counterproductive to complain about rapid upgrades as the tech becomes available. Very illogical stance to take to me. Would you rather there not be upgrades at all? Yes, the R headlights suck. But with the contracts and legal actions of the manufacturing world a solution may be far, far harder than you would think. Say Court, I see you have one of the technocolor "Barbie Bikes" too.  | ||
| Spatten1 |
BMC keeps redesigning their belts...Why? Anony, you should understand why a contingent of loyal Buellers are skeptical. It is not exactly irrational after 4 or so re-designs just since the XB came out. | ||
| Spatten1 |
One big weakness for the big KLR: Really long wheelies starve the oil supply and burn up the engine. Be careful. Still a solid bike and very reliable when not having too much fun on the rear wheel. | ||
| Smoke |
never having had an xb bike i am unfamiliar with their problems. i do have a number of tubers, one with chain drive. even with multiple tire changes, multiple crashes, many track days, gravel road riding i have not had a belt failure. i have 3 different size front and 2 size rear pulleys for gearing changes but prefer the 29/61 in most cases. i have no interest in influencing anyone into buying or not buying any particular product, but i will buy what i want and then deal with it. y'all have fun and i will too. tim | ||
| Slaughter |
My idea of a "Killer" KLR: Hayes' M1030M1 - runs on Diesel/JP8  They're being made just an hour from here and they're now road-testing CA-legal versions (not ready for prime time with emissions, etc) I'd love to have one... I'd be the only kid on my block. (Message edited by slaughter on October 28, 2007) | ||
| Doerman |
Spatten says: Anony, you should understand why a contingent of loyal Buellers are skeptical. It is not exactly irrational after 4 or so re-designs just since the XB came out. You see Scott, this is where I lose it logically speaking. The first XB came out in 2002 so that's 5 years ago. In that timeframe, there's been technological advances in belt design. Why should not Buell take advantage of that? The way I see it is they took the bull by the horns and reacted to what was available from subcontractors to improve the product. That is staying ahead of the curve and confidence inspiring to me. Asbjorn | ||
| Spatten1 |
The first XB came out in 2002 so that's 5 years ago. In that timeframe, there's been technological advances in belt design. Why should not Buell take advantage of that? I wish that were the reason for the re-designs. I believe the redesigns were necessary due to underperforming product. Four belts in five years is not due to the rapid advance in belt technology, it is due to product failures. | ||
| Imonabuss |
I am amazed at the attacks Buell gets for doing continuously improving technology. Perhaps it's because a lot of Buell riders come from H-D and want everything to stay the same? Despite the few who have had issues, the XB series has a great reputation for reliability, and most who own them rarely have things break. Underperformance is a constant way of thinking for modern companies who believe in quality. In short, every component is constantly being considered for improvement, because you cannot wait for complaints. A high quality company has to constantly challenge itself on everything it does. Maybe Buell should not keep refining designs, but should throw the whole design out every three years like the Japanese. I mean no one can complain that the parts in the new CB1105 should habe been on their CB1072, because they won't fit and the whole old bike is obsolete. Perhaps that is one of the reasons the Japanese do this. It kills resale but it shuts up complaints. BTW, I think Buell is the first outlet for Goodyear motorcycle belts, so I think the technology is new there and you would expect refinements. Also, I have heard H-D's Gates belts have been getting major changes every year for the last few years, so the technology is definitely not static. | ||
| Court |
Those are words you can take to the bank. It's fun for me, today writing a chapter on Continuous Improvement at Buell, to read this thread. Anyone want to take a crack at how many "running changes" the S2 underwent during the first year of production? Don't know? Less than 50 or more? The amazing part of it is that nearly everyone was initiated by Buell, several in conjunction between Buell and Buell owners. Unlike MOST companies, Buell involves EVERYONE in the process. . . . anybody can say "no, not yet". Check this out . . .  . . . know what those are? See the mfg plates? That's an entire fleet of Buell S2's ridden by factory personnel. Each and every day, rain or shine, snow or rain, guess who was beating the crap out of Buells? You got it . . . the same guys who were designing them. It's cool when you have an environment where someone is able to say . .. "since I designed this in March I've found a way to do it better". One school says . . . . "I'm pissed because the folks who waited an bought next years model got xxxx?" Another school decries . . . . "If Buell found out about it in March, why did they wait until next year?" Most companies, other than cursory window dressing don't give a flying rat's ass what their customers think. Ya like it? . . great. If not, someone else will. Buell (regardless of your personal feelings about ISO) was getting ISO9000 certified long before most folks knew what it was. . . continuous improvement was a method, not a buzz word. The entire idea, like Buell has done with the 1125r, in taking out pre-prodcution units and saying "here, ride, partake and let us know what you like and what you don't" is so foreign I don't expect to see it from other firms for at least 5 years. At least when Buell did the corporate website automakers and other motorcycles companies followed suite in a year or so . . . There's a price associated with being a leader. How do you think BMW's final drive belts would have fared absent Buells body of knowledge. . . . being on the cutting edge has a price. Folks, other firms, now employing the underslung muffler will be spared a lot of the costs associated. . . Cool stuff. | ||
| Dtx |
Court, Can't wait for your book to come out! I could read about this stuff all day. | ||
| Ducxl |
Yeah,i'll be looking for that book as well.I had a great ride on the X1 today.It rides HARD well. I've been acutely accustomed to applying QS-9000/ISO 9002 for many years as well.I was schooled in it's manufacturing application.I follow it EVERY day.BMC has suppliers in current non-conformance of quality procedure and risks losing certification. Oh yeah...did i mention the GREAT ride on my X1 today? Really did And i trust BMC's decision regarding the "spring loaded tensioner" | ||
| Court |
Have any other motorcycle manufactures ever received ISO certification? I think Buell was the first but when they did it things like ISO and corporate websites (Buell had one) were pretty much unheard of in the business. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I haven't had to work with ISO in over 10 years. When I was involved in ISO manufacturing it was all about process consistency. If you made a •••••• product, it was OK, if you made it exactly the same way every time, following the proper process, procedure, and testing parameters. If you made a good product, it helped ensure that you did not deviate from the manufacturing practices that produced the origninal good product. What it did not do was ensure that a product worked when it left the factory, or that the product made any sense at all. It was just about making the product the same every time. Has this changed with the newer ISO certifications? Is it about the product now, rather than the manufacturing and QC process? | ||
| Spatten1 |
BTW, I think that it does make sense for Buell to get ISO certification, more so than other manufacturers, for two reasons: 1) The large automotive OEMs in the Midwest generally requeire suppliers to be ISO certified, so Buell can leverage off of those same suppliers. 2) Buell outsources nearly everything, and it would be too onerous to do all the QC for so many outsourced parts in-house. ISO puts some of that burden on the suppliers. Smart business move for Buell. | ||
| Blake |
Someone mentioned that Buell should look into "Kaizen"? They did, about a decade or more ago. Buell knows Kaizen. What do you think drives all the continuous improvements? I'm with Asbjorn. I don't get the negativity that some seem so intent upon finding. I seriously cannot count how many owner suggestions and complaints Buell has addressed and satisfied since BadWeB came online back in 1998. The most recent upgrades being the vastly improved Thunderstorm engine with directly-driven, higher-output oil pump and beefed up crank pin. | ||
| Ducxl |
Kaaaaizen=School of thought.I'm forced to think every day how to manufacture parts with ever shorter cycle times. I had a HOOT on my X1 today,thought i'd add that as a preface to my dis may at the defects BMC allows to go into the field. The 1125r is already obsoleting belts...They haven't even reached production!! That tells me they do not know what the belt needs | ||
| Doerman |
That tells me they do not know what the belt needs Tells me that they care to make sure the absolute best solution goes into the production bikes. The idea that improving on a product gives the public consternations and suspicion is just so foreign to me.I can not grasp it. But it has become one of these:  And yeah, I had a fantastic ride on my XB9 today too. I wonder how, it has one of the inferior belts on it. How can that be? It has already given me 20K miles of great service. The belt is simply something I don't give any though while riding. Asbjorn | ||
| Blake |
A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future. Sidney J. Harris Cynics are sucky. Blake | ||
| Reepicheep |
If this Kaizen guy can wheelie a KLR-250 at all... much less long enough to starve it of oil, he must be one heck of a rider ;) | ||
| Anonymous |
The new ISO9000 system is completely different than the earlier consistency-based version. ISO is now based on customer satisfaction, and as such Buell is seen as a poster child by the ISO inspectors. They see our processes and how they are driven, and tell us we are industry leading. And yes, we are discarding early development belts because we have new ones that perform better. Even though these belts already showed improvement over current belts. I guess it would be preferable that we pretend that didn't happen and just ship the early belts?! | ||
| Ratbuell |
I fail to see where the old belts are automatically "bad". Just because a new something is "better", doesn't require the previous version to be "bad". Just...not *as* good. They didn't necessarily find a problem with an older version...just a better way to do something in the new product. Keep improving the breed, Buell. And thank you for taking the time to do so. |
