| Author | Message | ||
     Bartimus  |
Blake, the cylinders were re-plated once. but the pistons were lost as stated above, and took over a month to be sent to the shop. The shop, not realizing the cylinders were now the wrong color, installed the pistons, cylinders, etc. They then called me and informed me the bike was ready for pick-up. When I showed up, and was getting ready to load the bike for the trip back to Phoenix, I noticed the cylinders we no longer black. I brought this to Murrae's attention. He offered to paint them black for me, but I would like to have the powder coated cylinders as I think they looked very good. I don't mean to bag on the product. I don't think I ever said Millenium makes a bad product. I can't really say anything good or bad about the Millenium cylinders, and that is not what I was trying to express. The cylinder lining went bad, that is ok, there is a warranty to cover that. What is upsetting me is the length of time that it is taking to get the bike back together. I don't have the dates that the service manager contacted Millenium, nor do I have a list of all the phone calls he placed to them. I admit I was really ripped that the pistons were lost and resulted in a longer downtime, but I was really enraged to see the silver cylinders, when I knew the originals were black. It has been three weeks now, and I'm told by Josh at Santa Fe, that Millenium has told them for two weeks now, they will ship the cylinders. Will ship? Why not, Have shipped? I don't know. I just want what I purchased, a Nallin 1250, stage 2 kit. It came with the black cylinders, why should I settle for anything less? This is Warranty work. It should have been taken care of quickly. I hope this clears the air, sorry if I was misunderstood. | ||
| Blake |
Then later...
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| Blake |
Art, Looks like we cross posted. You've cleared up the above discrepancy by restating in detail that you first noticed the unpainted cylinders when you went to retrieve your S2, a Buell motorcycle, a really cool Buell motorcycle. Wish I had one. I'd be upset about not being able to ride it too.  I also appreciate you clarifying that that your cylinders were only replated the one time. I hope your Thunderbolt is back on the road real soon. If you are serious when you state that "I don't mean to bag on the product. I don't think I ever said Millenium makes a bad product. I can't really say anything good or bad about the Millenium cylinders, and that is not what I was trying to express.", would you please edit your opening post accordingly? You know the part where you mention "those crappy cylinders that keep losing their linings"? Thanks, Blake (Message edited by blake on February 18, 2005) | ||
| Vr1203  |
quote Aaron ..."The cylinders are powder coated, not painted." They better not be powder coated!!!! Do you know how that stuff holds heat in? They are a flat black high temp. paint. My cylinders came with one having a defect in it. Millenium exchanged it no problem. I did not buy the 1250 kit from them but they helped me when I was told they were the persons I would have to go to . | ||
| Aaron |
What Blake apparently doesn't have the integrity to admit is that he had a financial interest in attacking Art and Murrae. | ||
| Sportyeric |
I usually stay out of these tiffs but..."cylinders keep losing their linings" sounds like it is a repetitive problem and could be considered slander, IMHO, if its not the actual situation. Art has clarified that it only happened the once (to him, at least), therefore Blake is correct to ask for the post to be corrected. OTOH, Millenium should be dealing with Art's extended downtime by giving same-day air-express shipping if they don't want to get slammed for poor custumer service after two foul-ups. (The lining problem, then the colour problem.) | ||
| Blake |
"What Blake apparently doesn't have the integrity to admit is that he had a financial interest in attacking Art and Murrae."  That just isn't true, and I'm sorry to see you post such an accusation Aaron. That is not the type of public accusation I'd expect from one who I consider a good and honest friend. Something else seems to be afoot here. You may perceive my comments as an attack, but an attack was in no way my intent. My only intention was to express my opinion on the issue. It's troubling to me that you seem to be publicly attacking me, the only reason being that I do not agree with your extremely dim and yes bitter view of your competition at Millennium/Revolution Performance. It's even more troubling given that I was entirely up front and did indeed inform you in writing via email that I had opened the door for Millennium/Revolution Performance to come on board as a sponsor. At your own personal request that door had for the past year been closed to Millennium/Revolution Performance purely out of my friendship and respect for you. But that was my poor judgement and my mistake. It certainly wasn't fair to Millennium/Revolution Performance. You even offered to pay to cover the additional sponsor fee; I of course refused to accept it. Money is obviously not very important to me. Aaron, I have been forthright, up front, entirely open and honest with you on this issue; I informed you of the situatio with Millennium/Revolution Performance because I am honest and value my integrity; I certainly wasn't trying to hide anything. I never would have imagined that anyone could think that I would compromise my integrity over a mere $50/mo. To see you now take my forthrightness and honesty and twist it around in order to malign me publicly is a shock beyond belief. I am truly devastated. Please reconsider your accusation. It is horribly untrue. You may have just been trying to keep me honest, and if that is so, then I thank you. I do need at all times to avoid any possible appearances of impropriety. Lord knows there are unscrupulous people who are inclined to fill the gossip mill with malevolent lies when given just the slightest support to do so. But please let me address what I think you are hinting at. The likelyhood that Millenium/Revolution Performance may come on board as a BadWeB sponsor had ZERO effect upon my handling of the issue in question. Zero. You think I'd compromise my integrity for a lousy $500? Or is it your contention that Millenium phoned me up and told me they'd sponsor if only I'd address Art's inflamatory post attacking them? Maybe you missed the part where I commented that... "Millenium should have done better, much, much better." Hey, now there's a way to win sponsors.  Aaron, as with all BadWeB proceeds, any funding will go not into my hands as booty but towards the further support, improvement, and efforts of this site to support all things Buell. This site, BadWeB, a little corner of the web where a few of us Buell enthusiasts can hang out and learn a thing or two and even make new friends. I hope you'll reconsider your accusation. Money has never ever meant much to me. Friends and family do. One other thing I've come to learn, hatred will ruin a man. You've been a real blessing in my life Aaron. I hope you'll continue to be one for a long long time. Your friend, Blake | ||
| Aaron |
Blake, I'd be glad to retract the accusation if you'll spell out what's untrue about it. What you hadn't told any of us when you levied your attack on Art and Murrae was that you had already closed the deal with Millennium. They had signed up as a sponsor days before. You had a financial relationship with them and therefore an interest in protecting them, no? Whether or not it influenced what you did is open for debate. The financial tie to Millennium is fact. A very material fact for those of us trying to understand your attack. Arguing that it didn't matter because it wasn't a factor in your actions is, IMO, displaying a real lack of integrity. | ||
| Pammy |
So challenging Arts statements, which were broad in relation to his experience, is levying an attack? What was the motivation in MY challenging Arts statements? I am concerned about Art being without his bike for 6 months while the buck is being passed. I am sure Art could really care less about who is to blame for what. His main and ultimate goal is to get his bike back in an appropriate time frame(running properly, of course). Nobody here wants to make Art unhappy. Sounds like there was a series of mistakes/mishaps and all SOME people want to do is use Arts misfortune to grind their own axes. Maligning Blake and his integrity is extremely petty. I removed the offending word at Blakes request. I for one still have respect for the man . (Message edited by pammy on February 21, 2005) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Aaaackkk!  Dear Poster who's posting has been removed from above... this is bad enough without you stirring things up! Blake and Aaron have a sincere disagreement with substantial emotional stakes, and are trying to deal with it... or not... it's none of my business (though it makes me sad). Unfortunately, the original issue was public, so perhaps the clarifications should be public, but the longer this thread lingers, the more I wonder. The last sentence in particular was a personal attack, and there is enough damage here. I moved the post, *please* accept my humble apologies. You had valid points in there, but the rest of it will only make a bigger mess. Thanks for looking out for the board Bill. I've asked Pammy to edit her post accordingly. (Message edited by blake on February 21, 2005) | ||
| Tripp |
i thought it was a little odd that blake was so upset at art saying "those crappy cylinders", i don't know how many times i've called my bike a piece of crap or similar when i was pissed cause it was down. although that's not really the case it really is an awesome bike, sometimes you just say things when your mad, i don't know about the rest of you folks, but when i read "those crappy cylinders" i did'nt think anything of it, i didn't think he was bashing milleniums' product, i knew he was just upset with the poor service (and sh*t happens even at the best companies). now that there is a known relationship there between badweb and millenium it makes more sense why the "those crappy cylinders" statement would've triggered such a strong reaction from blake, and there is nothing wrong with looking out for your best interests. i think that aaron just meant to "keep me (blake) honest". | ||
| Mikej |
I'm still curious about Millenium cylinders and the use of hard chrome plated rings. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3842&post=388567#POST 388567 (other posts deleted to avoid fanning flames) (trying to stay on the right side of the fine line) (Message edited by mikej on February 21, 2005) | ||
| Tripp |
indeed, i would think racing use and street applications are two different beasts as far as the rings are concerned no? (imo, i'm just a tinkerer not a professional engine anything) | ||
| Blake |
"... those crappy cylinders that keep losing their linings." Yeah, Blake has never been known to be overzealous in protecting the integrity of this forum. LOL!!! Hey, I'm working on it! With help from my friends! If you will reread my first response to Art's 1st post, maybe you will re-evaluate my intentions. Aaron, Do you have a financial and personal stake in supporting or defending an attack against Millenium? (Message edited by blake on February 21, 2005) | ||
| Tripp |
true, true  i was hopeing to help to diffuse the situation incase you were unsure of my intentions  (Message edited by tripp on February 21, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
SD, If you only knew how many times I've looked at that bike!!! Every time I do I think to myself, "there is no-one who matches up with that bike better than Mr. James Witt." Course, I've only seen you in pictures and spoken briefly to you on the phone. I wish I had a place for it and the spare funds to buy it, cause it would be first on my list. I hope someone who truly appreciates that bike will purchase it and continue to share it with the rest of us Buell enthusiasts. Someday I plan on showing up at your doorstep and demanding shelter. Let me know when your mountain chalet is complete. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) | ||
| Blake |
Art, Do you know what kind of rings (chrome plated?) that were installed into your troubled cylinders? Any resolution to the problem yet? Aaron, Further to your request concerning my "financial incentive"... asked and answered. I receive no personal financial incentive. The sponsorship fees support the board, not me. We'll be spending upwards of $6,000 to keep the board running this year. At $600 per sponsor per year, that takes no less than ten full sponsorships. We have other expenses. Unfortunately it looks like an attorney might be one of them. With all the activity and money and sponsors passing through BadWeB, I'm at significant personal risk. Not that I have much of anything to lose, but I like my '97 Cyclone and would hate to see it auctioned to pay off some bogus lawsuit. The truth is that overall, I'm in the red when it comes to BadWeB. There were times a few years back where the board was growing so quickly and using so much bandwidth that I had to fund it out of my own pocket. You are welcome. I was happy to do it. Look to the light my friend. We're mostly all pulling for you. I know I am. | ||
| Mikej |
So I guess no followup on the hard chrome plated rings vs the Millenium cylinders then. Alrightey then. bye. (Maybe I'll go ask in an aviation forum where lots of Millenium cylinders get used.) | ||
| Murraebueller |
Folks- Some clarification is needed here. We did in fact talk to Millennium on a regular basis. They had the cylinders for quite a long period of time-several months. When we received them, they were given to the tech for installation. Since they had been out for such a long period of time and due to the volume of bikes that we work on, the tech installed the parts without recognizing the color issue- many Buells have silver cylinders and black heads and he had not seen the bike for some time. By the way, he is a certified Buell tech who rides an X1 with 93,000 miles on the odo. We also received the wrong rings from Millennium. Chris at Nallin sent us the correct ones- They have been excellent with their customer service to the point of paying the labor for the initial repair of the oil consumption problem. We were also billed $180.00 for the inspection, diamond hone and new rings by Millennium- a warranty issue as far as I am concerned- Bart was not charged. When we discovered the color issue, Bart was told "no problem- we made the mistake, we will correct it as soon as possible and there will be no charge." We contacted Millennium and were told that the correct color cylinders would be shipped immediately. That was on Feb. 4th. I got a email on Feb 15th while I was riding in Mexico that the parts had not been received. I emailed Millennium. Millennium sent a full kit- cylinders, pistons and rings which were installed. Bart drove from Phoenix to Santa Fe, NM and picked the bike up today. Millennium has agreed to cover the costs of replacing the cylinders and refund some of the cost from the initial work. Several key points- 1-Bart lives in Phoenix and brings the bike to Santa Fe to be worked on. We're close friends and he likes the way we take care of things, but this also adds time to the down time of the bike. 2-Aaron and Chris at Nallin have been absolutely excellent with their response to the oil consumption issue and have always turned the parts around very quickly. The new rings they sent were at no charge. 3- When Aaron agreed to pay for the labor on the rebuild, I discounted the parts and labor down to cost. My only concern was getting the bike fixed quickly and getting my tech paid for his time, since the issue had nothing to do with him. The Millennium charges and the shipping costs were charged off to shop policy- My department absorbed the costs. 4- Millennium has an excellent product with an excellent performance reputation. I was disappointed with their customer service response time, but they did come through, and since we're all human, mistakes get made. I also could have caught the problem with the cylinder color, but did not, so I bear some responsibility there 5- The bottom line- both issues were corrected with no cost to Bart. It sometimes requires a lot to coordinate warranty issues between several suppliers located in different parts of the country. Small manufacturers many times require inspecting and having the option of correcting issues rather than just blindly sending out parts under warranty. I hope this puts some of this issue to rest. What caused the original oil consumption? We're not really sure. Nallin reworked the heads and Millennium provided new pistons, rings and cylinders. This is the first time I have had any issues with the products from either company. The matter will be completely resolved when I hear from Bart confirming that the bike has made it through he break-in, has been dyno'd, and runs like crazy. Sorry for the long post. Hope to see you all in April at the ride Bart is putting together in Arizona. Murrae | ||
| Aaron |
Murrae, thanks for weighing in. The issues you mention ... defective product, long delays to correct issues, being told something shipped when it hadn't, being billed for things that were clearly warranty, getting the wrong color, etc ... are all very familiar to us. Those things make customers angry and make us look like the bad guy, because they forced us to break commitments to customers. And you can see first hand the cost to me both financially and in reputation. I'm very sorry you had to deal with this crap, but I really had no choice in the matter. And I'm very sorry you were made out to be the bad guy here. Rest assured that some of us knew better. Be thankful you didn't have to deal with the porosity issues. A little porosity doesn't hurt anything, but for awhile there it was more than a little, and we got caught in the middle, with pressure on us on one side to send crap to customers and pacify them, and dissatisfied customers on the other side. Some customers took their case directly to them and got satisfaction, for which I'm glad, but to this day those customers blame us. I just don't have the time or patience to deal with companies like that. There's a whole lot more, but I'll hold my tongue for now. Bottom line, we switched suppliers and are now much happier with both the quality of the product and the quality of the service. FYI, I went through Bart's heads and there was nothing wrong with them. We flowed them again and they're an excellent set of heads. Hopefully these issues are resolved, but if not, you have my number. (Message edited by aaron on February 27, 2005) | ||
| Glitch |
Thanks Aaron and Murrae, hopefully the next thing we hear will be how Bart is having a hard time getting his helmet off because of the grin on his face. | ||
| Murraebueller |
Aaron & Glitch- Thanks for the comments. I go out of my way to assure that customers are happy with their bikes and the work we do here. There is never a question about standing behind the work. I will charge things to policy that I believe the customer should not pay for even if it means that I loose money on the job. I want customers like Bart for life, so customer satisfaction has top priority. It's one of the reasons that Bart brings his bike 600 miles for work. In cases where suppliers refuse to cooperate we still step up to the plate. Since my wife, two of my sons and I all ride Buells, I'm especially sensitive to the problems Buell owners have had with dealers in the past. We have two Buell certified techs here and we go out of our way to insure all Buell owners are treated with care and respect. Aaron, I have nothing but great comments for you and Chris and the products you sell. You have always stood behind the products and been excellent with customer and dealer service. Ride safe-hope to see you on the road soon. Murrae | ||
| Blake |
Thanks for the clarifications Murrae. Aaron, maybe you missed what Murrae said about his experience with Millenium. I'll quote it for you.
And contrary to your assertion, no one including me was trying to make Murrae into "the bad guy." My point was that he was possibly a bit less than worthy of sainthood as Art's initial posts had portrayed him. Gee, does that coincide at all with the doubts I raised in my 2nd post in this thread? It's pretty much dead straight on with what I asserted and for which I was then indignantly lambasted by you for "attacking (your) customer." Aaron, please do not continue to engage in a personal campaign of smear against Millenium or any other person or business venture here on BadWeB. Such tactics inevitably only reflect poorly upon the complainer. Look to the light. Shun the negative. I am still left wondering, if the kit including cylinders was purchased from NRHS, why did an NRHS customer have to deal with Millenium at all? It seems to me that Millenium, though it took them a while to do so, did what NRHS should have done from the start. They sent an entire new 1250 kit and covered the cost of the warranty repair effort. Why did Millenium have to do that, when NRHS was the seller of record? Is NRHS just a reseller or do they stand behind every product they sell? I always thought it was the latter. I think you are letting personal issues cloud your business judgement. Please think twice about that. It is a no-win scenario. The truth is that you did have a choice in the matter; you chose to pass the buck. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but in this case it is the simple truth. And because of this issue, you justified withdrawing your sponsorship of this site. No matter how I try to reconcile your extreme reaction to this discussion I find that it makes absolutely ZERO sense to me. It is saddening and very disappointing. Suggest you get off the warpath and onto the high road. | ||
| Aaron |
I related my personal experience working with them, which happens to closely parallel Murrae's. Whether you want to believe it or not, those problems were commonplace. That's a fact. Unlike you, I commented with direct knowledge of the situation and I said things I know to be true. If it was me trying to get service out of Millennium instead of Murrae, we'd still be waiting. I paid for the repair. Get your facts straight. Or, make up a good story and start assigning blame to people like the service manager when you don't have a clue what's going on. And then throw a fit when the actual facts come out. Either way. You owe Murrae a huge apology. | ||
| Blake |
There is one person here assigning blame to others. It ain't me passing the buck. If I'm ever out of line or wrong, I can always rely on you to set me straight. Suggest you consider accepting the same favor in return once in a while. Who is paying for the tear-down and reassembly involving the unpainted cylinders? Why didn't you just send Murrae/Art a new set of cylinders? I don't get what the big deal is. Why not simply get your customer a new set of cylinders forthwith? NRHS has done similarly for customers before, why not now? If you couldn't get Milleniums for whatever reason, then why not send him a set of Axtell cylinders? Face facts Aaron. Because of your unwillingness to set things right with YOUR customer, YOUR customer has been without his bike for over half a year. If that is what is considered "bending over backwards" well, I'd have to disagree. You didn't make Art's problem YOUR problem. You made it someone else's problem. What puzzles me is that such behavior is wholly uncharacteristic of what we all know is the top notch customer service of NRHS. You've obviously adopted a very hostile adversarial stance concerning Millenium. That is your prerogative, but don't kid yourself into thinking that doing so provided any benefit to your customers. If anyone here owes anyone an apology I'd say it's you that owe's Art and Murrae an apology for passing off what should have been your problem with predictable consequences. If your experience with Millenium led you to expect problems in delivery and parts configuration foul ups, why would you pass that heartache onto your customer? That makes absolutely no sense. You are not that kind of man. But some malevolent force is leading you to that uncharacteristic behavior. I'd say shun whatever that malevolent influence is without hesitation. Get it behind thee. Would you please stop claiming that I "attacked" Art or Murrae. I did no such thing. I raised some poigniant questions and expressed some doubts. That's it. Trust me, I have my facts straight, probably a lot more than you realize. Murrae, Since Aaron deems it appropriate, and if I offended you, then I am truly sorry. My statements do sometimes deliver an inadvertently bitter pill. That was not my intent. My intent was to separate fact from emotionally charged mischaracterization of the issue. I sure appreciate your candor. I just didn't feel it was proper to lay the whole fiasco on the head of Millenium, and I very much appreciate you acknowledging that as well. It is obvious that you are a stand-up guy. I hope you'll look in on us more often. We rely on experts such as yourself to help separate fact from fiction. Thanks again for your candor. | ||
| Court |
>>>You've obviously adopted a very hostile adversarial stance concerning Millenium. Duh? | ||
| Aaron |
Passing the buck? Exactly who made the defective product? Who took their time in replacing it? Who lost the pistons? Who lied and said they shipped when they hadn't? Who sent the wrong color? Who tried to charge for the replacement? I sent parts and money, knowing I had no chance of recovering either from the party that's really responsible, and I advised Murrae on what I thought would be the most expeditious path to a resolution. It didn't work out well, and for that I've apologized to Murrae. Should I have instead sent even more parts and money that I had no chance of recovering? Maybe, but it's hindsight at this point. Hostile and adversarial stance towards Millennium? You bet. If you had been through what I've been through, you would too. | ||
| CJXB |
Suggest you get off the warpath and onto the high road. You could both do that and stop bickering over this, trying to prove the other wrong !! Is being right really worth losing a good and real friendship, are they a dime a dozen to you !?? CJ  | ||
| Blake |
It ain't about being right or wrong. Aaron, Not to be overly critical, which is hard for me sometimes as you know... I'm sure you expected and hoped for the best possible resolution for Art and were just as frustrated when the confusion became evident. I have no doubt in that. I don't think it is helpful to characterize people who probably just made a mistake as "liars." Now THAT is an attack.  On the adversarial thing. Good grief no. I have too much to live for and too many blessings in my life to let any kind of hostile adversarial battles run me down. That is the kind of motivation that feed groups like al qaeda and their ilk. Truthfully, THE single most empowering thing I can do is to forgive those who have wronged me or wronged those I love. When I do, the troublsome painful issue is gone forever, and in its place blooms an uplifted positive outlook; I then feel better about myself, and others, versus harboring ill will and hatred for others. The choice, and make NO mistake, it is a choice whether we harbor ill will and/or negative emotions, is a no brainer for me. Being the better man and the successful entrepreneur is by bar the best revenge. Wouldn't you say? So how about you tell us about your latest CNC adventures or give some hints as to what you have planned for Bonneville this year. And hey, I know of a cool calendar that you'd probably enjoy having hanging on your wall. (hint) I don't harbor any hard feelings at all. I'm still disappointed and saddened, but I'm not angry or upset. If anyone is reading that into my words, they are mistaken. Some of the cheerleaders around here are trying to make this issue into something monumental between you and I; they even corrupted what was intended to be a purely uplifting and positive discussion and show of appreciation for you and NRHS. Apparently that doesn't suit some people's agendas. Boy, now that type of behavior does upset me. That is just plain evil, damn gossiping instigators. If anything, you won't have to worry about being harangued for... what the heck was it Rocket said... oh yeah... "hijacking the board" LOL!!! Man when I heard that I about tore a muscle laughing. I wish more people would hijack the board like you used to do, posting dynos and advice and photos of machines spinning and chips flying... Anyway, I could ramble on, but need to call Dave Gess. Can we please consider this issue dead? Deal? | ||
| Bigj |
Does Millenium make big bore kits for R259 Beemers?  |
