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Rigga
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:30 am: | 
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opto,there is still some confusion even after your post,as in my experience the cruise portion of the fuelling was affected by the green pot...in fact when mine was found to be running excessivly weak 0.5% we adjusted the green pot to get the req 3.0% at cruise,most of the literature with the tfi refers to the green pot as the cruise adjustment?...so having pot 4 adjusted to the recomended position 7 allows the green pot to be adjusted to the req cruise setting,without the o2 sensor trying to pull fuel from the map?..if i read that right then the 4th pot is just sending a pre determined signal to the ecm to allow the tfi to overide the o2 sensor that wants to pull the added fuel from the map.... interestng |
Opto
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:54 am: |
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Yes, Rigga, you read that the same as I do. It is also confusing about the label "cruise pot" but check this link, it will explain a lot better
http://www.dobeckperformance.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=61&posts=1} |
Craigster
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 07:57 am: |
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I agree with Ian. The documentation I read early on specifically states that the beauty of the TFI unit is that it has the fourth pot to adjust and SEND a false O2 signal back to the stock ECM. Hence the ECM does not try to 'fix' the closed loop tuning based on a slightly richer mixture....it is none the wiser.
Many companies screw up their literature or fail to boldly state specific changes to product models.....ask Dynojet about the three maps held in Vance and Hines power commanders.....most of the Dynojet techs don't even know about the feature. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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So let me get this straight. The Green pod is for cruising speed and the forth pod is there to keep the ECM from pulling fuel during crusing. right? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Well, It's there to fool the ECM into NOT adjusting the Adaptive Fuel Value. This way, when you enter closed loop mode (or is it open? Anyway, the one that's used when you are in the upper RPM range or when you are at a higher throttle opening) the ECM won't deliver too much/too little fuel based on what the AFV ends up at. |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 01:55 pm: |
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Ok, so in the end just leave the RPM pod set to 7 right? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 02:15 pm: |
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Well, that's what it seems like... That's what Dobeck seems to be telling us to do, and they've done the testing.
I have another e-mail that I sent to Dobeck that asks someone to further clarify exactly what the cruise pot does. I'll post the answer when I get it. |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 03:27 pm: |
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What I find most interesting is that my xb12r is running great with the recommended (or close to it) settings, yet I have a Jardine, bare race filter, stock ECM (servo emulator circuit),cut down snorkle, and reflective material on the bottom of the stock airbox base. I think the IAT sensor is the most likely difference since you guys are running heat blankets.
xbolt12 |
Rigga
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 04:28 pm: |
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xbolt....... thats the conclusion brad and i came to,not had chance to verify though,but odie runs a blanket and was maybe going to try the iat underneath the blanket to see if anything changes |
Wheelsleaning
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:12 pm: |
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Would having the Jardine exhaust and K&N intake without the Techlusions harm my engine? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:39 pm: |
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Well, theoretically, the AFV should adjust so that it adds fuel...
The problem is that as you go higher into the rev range, the pipe MAY need even more than the AFV adjusted pulse will deliver. This would make it run lean in the closed loop mode. I think that anyone who does anything to help the engine breath easier should also take steps to make sure it's drinking properly as well. |
Wheelsleaning
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 05:59 pm: |
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I have the Techlusions box but we are riding tonight and dont have time to put it on. I will be installing it soon though... (DAYM this thing is L O U D!) |
Rigga
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:24 pm: |
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well received some more mails off george tonight,the first was the latest version of the 4th pot theory,stating that its there to fool the ecm via the o2 sensor not to pull the extra fuel in closed loop mode,i think its fair to say that the 4th pot should be left at position 7 at this point in time...... the second one is copied below
good day
i've talked with an in the field associate and he would like to help out some more if possible. i've forwarded our e-mails to him to overlook.
here is his e-mail, also i think he is running the same setup as you.
anyway have a great day and let me know how this goes because we would like have your bike running well. of course that's the ultimate goal.
dbmckesson@hotmail.com
thanks
so its fair to say dobecks tech support is good as they continue to try to help guys with set up problems,plus of course any new information is of help to them developing their products...george did ask how the tfi was working with my race ecm,wondered if it could handle riding on the street in all conditions,told him it remained totally tractable,and worked really well..... might be a race version tfi maybe in the future? |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:32 pm: |
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Lots of interesting information here.
My take on it all?...
Dyno tune it. Anything short of that is guessing for most of us.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:39 pm: |
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One other quick comment: Even if you find a published setup for your exact bike/intake/exhaust configuration it is likely that there exists enough variance in the performance of the Techlusion electronic bits that optimum settings for two bikes could easily be very different. So if you wanna be sure, you gotta Dyno tune it baybee. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:54 pm: |
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Agreed... I'll be running it up to the "mostly" local HD shop once I get my force pipe installed ... Maybe this weekend
I'll rough it in with the procedure outlined in the manual first though. |
Rigga
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:54 pm: |
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blake i agree totally.... originally after fitting the tfi with the stock ecm....test rode the bike,and it felt great,pretty sure it was an improvement over the race kit,put it on the dyno though and it was worse every where.....ive posted previously along the same lines that even two exact same bikes with exact same mods might not have the exact same tfi settings.... but a base setting might be found to limit dyno time |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 06:55 pm: |
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Oh, Also...
the problem I see with a Dyno tune is that the tech isn't really going to know any more about the techlusion box than I do, so I better make sure I know everything I can before I get there...
I wish I had my own dyno damnit... |
Ortegakid
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 09:50 pm: |
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Rigga,(or anyone else that needs it), thats me; ortegakid, that george gave you the e-mail address for, let me know if'n I can help in any way, mine works %$#$#&@%!@outstanding! |
Xbolt12
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 09:57 pm: |
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Hey Ortega,
Any idea if those cool swingarm spools you thought up , Al worked on, and Dark Horse? was going to make are ever going to be produced?
I want em!
xbolt12 |
Ortegakid
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 12:43 am: |
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xb,
Ask al, not sure where they stand,if not let me know, will hand make you some, no prob! |
Cataract2
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 07:16 am: |
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#$&@%$*$*$#&%#@%@!#~ Gotta go bang my head on the wall for a bit. I was looking over my settings and what do I notice. the RPM pod is set to 6 and not 7. The red was on 4 and not 5. Oops. I know that the RPM pod being set off was probably messing up my Green pod. I fixed it and took it for a test ride. Seems the stumbling is gone. I'll play with it more when I'm off from work tomorrow. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 09:09 am: |
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For those that don't have one yet, or are getting one, or haven't tried this yet....
I mounted mine on what's left of my 12 air box top. Rode around for hours last night with the cover off. Sure made it a lot faster to adjust.
Almost got mine dialed in. The change is amazing!
Well worth the money, time, and effort.
As soon as I feel I've got it as close as I can by my S.O.P. dyno, I'll take it over to have it dynoed again. I've already done one before the TFI, so I'll have some good charts to post later on.
Thanks to all ya'll for such good information.
Ya'll made my decision to get the TFI easier, and tuning has been made easier also, just by reading this one thread.
Odie, thanks for the phone call the night of the install, removing the right side cover, instead of the fuel line, made the install much nicer, thanks for all the advise. |
Odie
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 09:22 am: |
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That's what friends are for.....Odie |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 09:49 am: |
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Other than the Rev limit, is there any reason to use the race ECM with the tfi, rather than the stock ECM? Is the timing more aggressive? Has anyone done a back to back, with dialed-in settings for both? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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The timing is more aggressive. There is NO change to the rev limit. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
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I did back to back runs with the race and stock ECM for a 9sx (different then the old race ECM's) on a very young engine. Cut airbox, K&N, stock exhaust. No techlusion.
I picked up about 1.3 horsepower (just barely over the noise threshold) and came up with a richer fuel mix pretty much across the board. Picked up a little power (maybe 1 HP) between 2k and 4k RPM as well. |
Ingemar
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 03:33 pm: |
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I'm not sure but I don't think you notice a 1 or 2 hp difference, do you? |
Newxb9er
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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Got the TFI installed, plugged up. Wasn't too hard. I put it in the "trunk". Wish the wires were just a bit longer. I wanted it there so I could adjust it without taking the airbox or seat off. Being I'm going to paint the bike, the less I remove large items, the less chance of something happening that will make me cry. I've got the D&D on, and I still have to cut the airbox for the K&N. I cut holes in the airbox cover(Will post pics soon). Started her up, and I LOVE the sound. My GF said my bike isn't supposed to sound like that, she doesn't understand! She said it's supposed to sound like a "crotch rocket" not a chopper! Can't wait to open her up and really hear it!! Excitement to say the least. Now it's time to paint, tune, and then dyno tune. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 12:50 am: |
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Question from me to Dobeck Tech support -
I'm curious... If you set the green/yellow and the red to an "improper" realtionship, would you see a fairly abrupt AF ratio change at a certain RPM on a dyno?
If you set the cruise pot too low or too high, would the Adaptive Fuel Value in the ECM creep up or down until it reached it's limit and then throw an engine code?
From George Levings at Dobeck -
"each circuit has a range of additional milliseconds of pulse width to the injector staying open. green being the smallest range. yellow and red generally have the same range. lets say you put green at 6:00 and yellow at 6:00, now you have the equivalent of 9:00 on the red. so if you had red set at 4:00 you would see a change in Carbon Monoxide(CO). but you would also have a hard time making the bike run very well.
since we use five gas analyzers to look at combustion, we don't see a consistent comparison to A/F graphs on dyno's. Most all of the dyno's out there have only an 02 sensor in the sniffer and there is an equation used to determine the amount of fuel. Since this process leaves so much room for error, we decided to monitor CO among other gases. there are dyno's with multiple gas sniffing capabilities but the sampling rates are far too slow to have real world numbers. also here's something to think about,... if you have optimum combustion there should hardly be any oxygen left and trying to register that hardly traceable amount usually results in the graph showing a rich condition.
and yes the ECM would throw a code, but this is an easy test for you to see the results with.
" |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 08:45 am: |
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Ingmar, I think I noticed it, but nothing dramatic. It just felt a little "crisper". And it was only noticable down low, going from 20 to 21 horsepower was a 5% gain there. Up top, it's all background noise or dyno error.
I wanted to document all the process before I got the race exhaust, I was not expecting much of a change going from the non race ecm to the race ecm. It's a long story how I ended up with it, were I doing it again I would go with techlusion and stock ECM. |
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