| Author | Message | ||
     Rr_eater  |
An idea to ponder here guys, but something that so interests me, that I am considering selling back my extended warranty for it!! With the post of the Veypor unit, which gives all indications nessasary for riding information, minus oil presure and fuel level (both of which are easily synthesised with led's and a relay) and Megasquirt, a fuel management system that is already running on several different motorcycles, 2 I know of are Buells, it would leave only the question of ignition timing to be handled somehow. As I understand it now, timing is managed by the ECM, and as such, would need to managed some other way. There is a version of megasquirt that controls timing using and EDIS system, but that requires a trigger wheel mounted to the crank, and I have no want for that ugliness. What I was propsing is using the ingition management system from a NON-EFI Buell, like my 00 M2. The timing pickup is the same size, if not exact same one, so a stand alone addition of an earlier system should be no problem I think, seeing it was stand alone. Where are the holes in my thinking guys, as another point of view tends to make the scenery a bit clearer. Or am I not using the search options properly?? Thanks guys and gals Bruce | ||
| M1combat  |
You aren't using the search engine properly  . It's a topic I love though, so... I've considered this as well and I think that the Crane HE-4I or a Dyna ignition module should work for spark timing (I haven't really looked into the Dyna models). You will indeed lose something by going to a mega-squirt from the Buell ECM. Sequential injection. From what I hear the power gain w/ sequential injection is "negligible", but there is a slight benefit in fuel economy (A very important thing for racing). As I recall the MSII that is being developed will solve both of those issues along with being a faster processor. In another thread... we discussed the spark timing differences between a nine and a twelve and although we found no hard evidence, we mostly came to the conclusion (as I recall) that the ignition timing difference would be small enough (or non-existent) that it wouldn't matter. I only mention this to propose that maybe an ignition system from a tube frame Buell would work on a nine as well. Using an older Buell ignition module is an option I hadn't considered before though . Thanks. | ||
| Rr_eater |
Well, the slight benefit of fuel economy is a bit of a misnomer anyway, as the MS can be programmed with a cruise mode, leaning the bike to the safe limit when throttle inputs are minimized, such as highway cruising. Very few vehicle until lately, utilized seq FI as the programming and timing were more complicated, and benefits were at best minute. MS II is slated to deal with that, having only to know top dead center of the first cylinder per say, and programming the rest of the evolution, using math and time(rpm) to calculate the second sequence (or however many cylinders you may have), and ULTRA MS which will hopefully incorporate both ignition timing and fuel delivery, at a better rate and effeciency then MSnS (mega squirt n' spark) even can. As far as I can see from schematics, an ignition system from an earlier tuber should be an easily adapted system, as it really is stand alone other then power, and thats easy stuff. What I am truely getting at here, is that in order to upgrade ancillary things such as instrumentation, there are expansive details to cover, which is why I started this thread. I was hoping more people (opto, odie, trench) would throw out some ideas and points of view, but alas, the holidays are upon us......... M1, let me know what if anything you might find out about using an earlier ignition system, as my local stealerships are worhtless when it comes to Buell (uh, ya, I can, uh, get you that, uh, I think....let me make a phone call real quick......) Anybody else? Bruce | ||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Driving a Tacho and giving an ignition pulse to the MegaSquirt box is easily done from both the Crane and Dyna ignition modules. They have a Tach output. IIRC, a guy at the MS group on Yahoo has recently converted an M2 to FI using an MS, X1 throttle body/injectors and an aftermarket ignition such as above. Whether a Crane or a Dyna ignition will fit an XB type motor I have no idea. Other than that, it seems reasonably easily do-able. Whether a FI M2 is "better" than a M2 with a HSR42 is debatable, but hey, if you want to do it that's good enough reason to do it! Steve steve_s@ukbeg.com www.ukbeg.com | ||
| Craigster |
Sequential EFI is only good for emissions testing. It can also help with smoothing idle, but a good tuner can work around that. At 7000 rpm, your engine is spinning 116.66 revs per second. That means each revolution takes 8.57 milliseconds. A 256 deg cam yields 6.09 ms of valve open time. Your sequentialy injected Buell is using more like 11 msec at WOT, Max rpm, and quick throttle roll-on (accell enrichment). Look at the above numbers and see that the required pulse duration is longer than a single rev. let alone valve 'open' time. Not a big deal though as a 4 stroke will allow 2 revs worth of time for 100% squirting duration. The fuel-air mix has almost no dead time (5 milliseconds). The fuel isn't going to fall out of the air in that time...If it did, carbs wouldn't work now would they? What do you think happens to the the air-fuel mix when the intake valve slaps shut on the in rushing charge? Only at low revs and low throttle position and accel demands does sequential even have a chance of squirting fuel in at the same time the intake valve is open. Even so, can anyone here guarrantee that there is no reversion through the intake at ANY point in time? Think about it for a moment....If it ever happens, then sequential injection must be programmed not to fire with valve timing, but with actual intake flow. Nearly impossible and pretty useless. Since it doesn't matter, the point is mute. If you need to pass EPA tests at the factory, best go sequential. Also if you have a totally undeveloped engine and you absolutely need to be sure that the injection events are occuring at the same time for each cylinder (as not to mess up your testing) go sequential....otherwise..it really does not matter. | ||
| Craigster |
Forgot to add... MSII is not currently supporting sequential injection. The processor and code will support this in the future but as a true MSII, it is just a daughter board to MS and and has no hardware to supprot sequential EFI. The improvements are 12x12 tables, Dual table code standard (VE and AFR-for the O2 correction guys), fuel control to 1 usec (rather than 100 usec), stepper Idle air valve control (no use on Buells) and ignition control (no MS&Extra code required - MS&Extra does not support odd fire code so this was also a mute point for guys with V-twins) The processor will be used in UMS and will have the hardware to support sequential injection at that point in time. 9 Beta units went out to test End of November and I believe five more were shipped this week. MSII will allow for small step idle to part throttle adjustment as well as 50% more user selectable rpm steps for VE tables. That and the finer PW resolution will be the immediate benefits to MC guys. The 68HC908 processor could handle 16,000 rpm so there is no necessary improvement for Buell guys. Steve is correct in that the Dyna Ignition RPM output is already a near-perfect time averaged square wave ....Great for MS input (so odd fire code is not required when using MS) it also has a separate tach output for Sportsters and Buells. | ||
| M1combat |
I agree that sequential injection is mostly useful. I was pointing out the fact that if you go to a mega squirt you will indeed lose it. It's worth it IMO too. | ||
| Craigster |
What benefit do you see in sequential injection? | ||
| Opto |
Rr_eater, I can't see any reason why you can't fit another ignition system and run something like MS to handle fuel. I was thinking along the lines of a Daytona TwinTec or an S&S "intelligent spark system" with its built-in knock sensor and self-programming abilities for ignition. You may have to fit a different trigger rotor. If you take out the ecm completely you will lose 5 volt sensor power to the TPS, cam position sensor, vehicle speed sensor and bank angle sensor. This could be supplied by MS or by a simple 5V power supply. You also lose the tacho output, fuel pump output, fan control, and the idiot CE light. MS can handle the fuel pump but the fan control would be an interesting project. I finally installed an MS to my bike today (started the project in March) but it's not finished. It works and the engine idles, right now it's not tuned yet but that will progress soon. I have a switch that toggles the injectors between the ecm and the MS, and dummy loads for the injectors to keep the ecm check engine light off. I'm using the tacho output from the ecm to drive the MS, which shares all sensors with the ecm. If I can get the MS to perform then the next step is another ignition. It's a lot of work but it's OK if that's your hobby/interest/whatever. | ||
| Craigster |
Opto, Do you know what sensors can be eliminated and still allow the stock ecm to perform spark function? i.e. Have MS share as few sensors as possible to ease the wire harness adapter cable. | ||
| Trenchtractor  |
The idiot light: Dump it. Idiot lights are there for idiots. You'd need temp and oil pressure gauges... I think you could get a dual gauge to do it in 2". Sensors would be the next question... You'd proly just use aftermarket sensors mounted in the OEM locations... I haven't looked into this. Tacho/Speedo: Aftermarket system like the Veypor would be good, all the idications of the stock ones, but more acurate and all the dyno and data logging features you need to help tune the EFI bar the A/F ratio. Spark: Like Opto said, aftermarket like the Daytona system. It's stand alone... Bank Angle Sensor: Store it in the round file... Seriously, this thing's only gonna do anything if the bike falls over, and even then it'll proly shut down by itself... It's a safety last pollicy I have adopted...  But I really don't see a reason to make an effort to keep it. Engine Critical sensors: Like TPS and cam angle, like Opto said, slave them off the 5v supply if the MS. Fuel Pump: MS controlled Relay. Fan Control: Most aftermarket EFI computers have an Aux facilty for the control of a thermo fan. If the MS had this you could simply use a turbo timer to run the fan at shutdown. Alternatively, the temp sensor output connected to a 'voltage comparitor' to run a relay for the fan control... You just need to figure out what the temp sensor voltage is when the fan comes on with the stock ECM... Supply power to it via a turbo timer so it gets power after the ignition is turned off... | ||
| Blake |
Your bike will not be allowed on the track without a tip sensor/safety switch, what you call a "bank angle sensor." To say that there is little advantage to individually timing fuel injection pulses raises a big red flag with me. | ||
| Craigster |
Actually I don't need info on how to run my Buell on MS as mine is already running on MS. ;^) My real question is if anyone knows if the stock ECM's spark will fire with only cam position as a trigger or is the advance curve Throttle Position and temperature dependant. My EFI Buell uses a Dyna ignition with a VOES so I have not needed to attempt to get a spark out of a factory ECM yet. Opto has shared his research on the stock ECM with me and I hope to push my Buell ECM test bench a little further over the weekend. Still need a good reference for RPM as generated by the DC motor I'm using as a trigger for the cam sensor. If I can make this work on the bench then I'll procede to firing up an X1 on MS. If any one is interested, both of my MS projects are listed under success stories at msefi.com Blake: Are you refering to my oposition to sequential producing more power than batch? | ||
| M1combat |
The Buell manual calls it a "Bank Angle Sensor" as I recall. As far as sequential injection... The benefits to a manufacturer are good enough to do it. Slight increase in fuel efficiency and a negligable power increase (so says the Mega squirt website anyway). I don't see enough of an advantage for someone just building a bike though... The statement above should have read I agree that sequential injection is mostly useless. I was pointing out the fact that if you go to a mega squirt you will indeed lose it. It's worth loosing it to gain the advatages of the MS IMO. Sorry for the typo (or string of typos ). | ||
| Jprovo  |
Blake, Are you sure about the "Bank angle sensor?" I don't remember any race organization requiring them. Then again, my Buell was the first bike I've owned that's had one. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Well, that being the case, should be relatively easy enough to rig it in using a relay on the MS power supply, it is just a switch after all... Is it only the FI bikes that are required to have the bank angle sensor for 'the track'?? Does this rule mean you would have to fit a bank angle sensor to a carbied bike prior to a track day?? What levels of racing/track days does this rule apply to in the USA?? I've seen race bikes tip over on the track and the riders have picked the bike up still running I have seen this at a wet MotoGP round and in local Aussie domestic supersport/superbike rounds... Perhaps it's a local track day thing?? Does the same track make you modify your road bike to have oil catch cans instead of breathers and lock wire the sump plug?? I'm just wondering the level of competition Vs the level of scrutineering... | ||
| Craigster |
M1, Gotcha....I make typos all the time. | ||
| Craigster |
Trenchtractor, Back when I used to roadrace, I was in the tech inspection line behind a guy who didn't have his throttle cables hooked up. They twisted his throttle and not only did it fail to return, it had zero resistance! Yes, he failed and was sent back to his pit to fix it. I think that made it easier for me to pass with a six inch long safety wire lead to my oil drain. They checked it, pointed it out to me and said something like, 'we shouldn't let that pass, it's not really very good but the reast of the bike is clean and we have alot more guys with missing parts to check out. Fix it by next race weekend or we'll send you back. Based on that, I have no idea how on earth they would find a missing tip over switch short of making you fire up the fuel pump and having you lay the bike on its side. Can't see my local track day yahoos performing that detailed an inspection. I think your right with the quick interface to MS. Just tie the sensor into the fuel pump relay's 12 volt line. Drop bike = kill fuel. No fuel = no revs so MS shuts down for a nap. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Yeah, my thoughts exactly... Hey, the only reason I found mine was when I was fitting up the 'R' tail section... The bike runs fine without it, just has an idiot light warning... | ||
| Rr_eater |
So, with all this being said, and a minor issue of fan, (which is not an issue either, just use an adjustable thermister stand alone always powered set to the required temp on and off), you could say this set-up might work, IE 3 stand alone systems, all fully adjustable in their own right, could be done. Ms stands alone, sensor and inputs are easy there. Verify the Dyna system will fit, or look into an older carbed buell system application. Veypor stand alone system, using ignition system input for tach sound doable? Bruce | ||
| Craigster |
I guess I don't understand why one would need the Veypor if they still have their stock instruments. | ||
| Rr_eater |
Craig, Because the instruments are run by the ECM. If you remove the ECM (not much point to keep it with MS doing all the work). Plus to make what I thought might be a really sano install, I will need the room in the tail/seat bucket area for the MS. I can then fabricate a custom dash panel, with the Veypor unit, A/F meter, and ancillary switches, all fitting behind the factory screen. Or am I just wacko and missing something? Can you use the gauges without the ECM? Are they self contained, can/do they draw their own inputs, not from the ECM? Bruce | ||
| Opto |
Rr, if you supply 5V and a ground to the vehicle speed sensor then the speedo will work (after removal of ecm), but the tacho will require a tacho output from an ignition system, or some sort of electronic interface between the coil and the tacho. Otherwise a custom dash with Veypor unit etc sounds pretty cool... | ||
| Trenchtractor |
I only mentioned the veypor since you'll need a tuning tool or plenty of dyno time... The veypor will give you all the speed and tach indications you need, plus the power, torque and 1/4 mile readings... Would save a lot of dyno work initially... | ||
| Craigster |
Ok, so you're saying throw out the ECM completely. Use MS, aftermarket ignition and Veypor....Got it. I was planning on letting the ECM run the ignition, thus no need to lose stock instruments. | ||
| Rr_eater |
Well Craig the reason I am interested in throwing away the ECM, is like Trench said, on board dyno plus instrumentation for tuning, and while the factory dash is sharp, all the idiot lights would be on all the time, and that would get annoying (until pulled it apart and yanked them out) A digital dash would be, in my opinion, in keeping with the trend setting mentality of the bike as well (looks cool!!), something different. Opto, thanks for the heads up on the speedo sensor. So is it a magnetic pick up or a hall sensor do you know? Is the output to the factory tachometer digital or analog? If it is digital from the ECM, then there is definately no keeping it. If it were analog, then it might be pumped from the coil not through the ECM, as the dash doing the prestart test may be a self contained BIT check (swinging the needles full throw), or is it run by the ECM as well? I understand advance is controlled by the ECM, so there is a catch there, but maybe not indication?? Thanks again guys Bruce | ||
| Trenchtractor |
even without using the veypor, I would consider tossing the ECM completely... Using MS and a stand alone ignition is the go performance wise... If I understand correctly, the Daytona's knock sensor and learn function would aoutomatically adjust the advance curve depending on fuel, at least somewhat... Opto, help out here?? So the only thing left for the ECM to do would be to perhaps run the tacho?? Stuff that, even without the veypor, I'd use a trick programmable aftermarket unit that comes with a shift light... As for the idiot lights, dump them in favour of pressure and temp gauges so you can tell what's really going on. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Another way to think about it is, if you removed the entire loom and everything electrical besides engine sensors, what would you need to install to make the bike run... Then only fit up what is essential... You don't NEED the ECM... The ECM is just Buells answer to the questions you guys are asking... | ||
| Opto |
Rr, I'm fairly sure the needles do a BIT check from their own electronics, not the ecm. The ecm has nothing to do with the operation of the speedo except supply 5V and ground to the sensor. I know that because the white VSS wire is not connected to the ecm on Oz models. I presume (a dangerous word) that the tacho is run by a digital square wave output from the ecm because I'm using this signal to successfully drive the MS. The output from a coil primary is also digital but may not be symmetrical and is very noisy (voltage spikes) but with conditioning should be able to drive the tacho. As stated before some aftermarket ignitions have a dedicated tacho output. One difficulty is that the ecm tacho output may be 5V, but a coil output signal would be 12V, which could then be brought back down to 5V with some electronics. I really don't know what the ecm tacho output voltage is because the MS worked so I haven't needed to measure it, (yet). One significant challenge with every aftermarket ignition I've looked at is that they will only drive ignition coils of 3 ohms primary impedance, while the Buell coils are 0.5 to 0.7 ohms making them incompatible. The 3 ohm coils can be bought but will they fit? Maybe what Rr suggested, using an ignition off an older Buell might be a really good simple answer, wonder if they use same impedance coils to the XB? I am keen on the (very expensive) S&S intelligent spark system with the knock sensor and MAP sensor which should adapt to the occasional tank of low octane fuel in Oz without pinging. http://www.cyborgcycles.com/igniton.htm#SS I was put onto this system by a private HD engine builder who refuses to build an engine for a customer unless it runs this ignition, because when the customer runs the engine he knows it won't ping. If you're going to fit your own gauges I think a really important one is battery voltage, or just as good/same thing, a charge indicator. If our charging system fails we can't go very far. I really don't know why so many manufacturers leave this off so many models. | ||
| Craigster |
OK, I conceede. No reason to keep the stock ECM. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Or is that no need to argue with guy/s who won't be convinced>> | ||
| Craigster |
Trench, Exactly. If you want to do it the easiest way, keep the ecm for ignition and run stock gauges. If you want a completely custom system, no reason to ask, 'is this possible?'...because at that point ANYTHING is possible. How much work do want to do, and how much time do you want to invest are the limiting factors. So yes...toss the stock gauges, toss the ecm, toss the harness. I can't argue with those who love to build custom machinery. Look at my M2. Never was intended to run EFI, but she does. It's great to ride knowing no one else at the local watering hole will have the same set up. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
roger doger... I'm in that same bucket, but I guess it depends on what your intentions are. Personally, if you were only wanting to adjust fuel, you'd proly be better off with a TFi, then you have a fair fueling control and use the ECM for all other functions. They are cheap to buy and very quick and easy to install and set up. If you were going to the level of a completely stand alone universal FI, I think the extra time spent on installation and set-up, not to mention the head aches aren't worth the difference in performance on a stock bike, that's if the stand alone FI coupled to the OEM ECM actually yielded any performance gains... So I guess I was looking at it that way, if you're gonna go that far, why not go all the way?? On the other hand, if you were developing a plug and play fuel injection system for mass production, that was easy to install and cheap to buy, then I see the benifits... Look at Dobeck, they spent ages getting the TFi right for us... Now it seems they are selling like hot cakes!! |
