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S1lightning


Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Uh, Richie, what are you and your brother smokin anyways???

Just kiddin, hey let it snow!!!!!!!!!
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S2scott
Posted on Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Where will the meeting be this time? some posts say Shawnee but at the top of this page it says Gails? I cant figure out where I should go, maybe I just aint smart enough.
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Richieg150


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 12:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tripper quote: program interrupt:

Dennis; we can't meet at gails until the new charter is approved. paperwork has been sent in, but our first meeting at gails will be in Jan.

resume program
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Richie...

FIRST: If you are going to answer a question... don't just half answer it. Please be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

SECOND: If you are trying to embarrass me by posting quotes... don't bother. Ain't gonna work!!! I said what I said... and still have to be shown there are changes in the place, before my total impression changes. A few of my concerns were candidly voiced during the meeting Saturday. I was at a meeting that you were not... and unlike others... along with my strong opinions... I have an open mind. Give it a try in all aspects of this.

THIRD: At some point we will have elections again. At that point there can be a movement to vote me out of office.

FORTH... Be sure and read what you post to rattle the cages of others... here is one of your postings...

RICHIE POSTED "Quote from Tripper-} Please, just cool your jets cause things are happening in the background already. It is going to be a fun year, if you don't •••• off each other and our new sponsor."

You might follow your own advise (as given by quoting Tripper)

Resume thinking!! ...or at least give it a try.


********************
Scott... I made the same mistake.

Our last meeting before Officially becoming...
Gail's American Heartland Club

aka

Gail's American Heartland BRAG

Will be at the old location at
Casa de Hernandez
or whatever the correct name is for the Mexican restaurant out by Central HD, we have been using. THIS THURSDAY DECEMBER 16th.


********************
Sam...

Remember who paid dues...and bring some cash from club funds to refund the dues correction.


********************
CLUB OFFICERS...

See me at the meeting or call me if you can't attend. We need to meet sometime late this week to discuss club business.


********************
ANYONE... ANYONE... BUELLER...

Does anyone have one of those neat cool projector thingie-bobs that you hook up to a laptop computer and project on a screen what is on the computer screen? If so... call me. 816-935-1836


********************
EVERYPEOPLE...

Our club dues have been reduced to $15.00. If you already paid... see Sam for a refund of $5.00, I understand he collected $20.00 from some members. The membership dues were changed Saturday after a meeting with the liason at Gail's Saturday.

Hey... first day on the job... and I reduced taxes. Next... a chicken in every pot, and a race kit on every bike!!


REMEMBER... ALL THAT ATTEND (up to 24 attendees), EVEN IF SANTA DOES NOT THINK YOU WERE GOOD THIS YEAR... WILL GET A NICE ELECTRONIC TIRE PRESSURE GAUGE.

we now resume pot stirring and crap throwing!

(Message edited by dasbuell on December 13, 2004)
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Court
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

>>>Please be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

P-R-E-C-I-S-E-L-Y

You guys are on to something great and all the elements are present for a great Buell group.

Look...I spent 11 years waiting for the day the Kansas City area would even HAVE a Buell dealer...go with the positive things you have an MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL.

The news about you guys kicking Tripper out and luring him to St. Louis under the guise of a waiting job and appointing a leader who carries a weapon speaks highly for your group.

The cooperation and willingness to help from the staff at Gail's gives you all you need.

No...go get'em.

I am trying to find an excuse to make a future meeting. You're off to a great start and I could use a meal in KC~!

All the best,
Court
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Humor me Buelligans...

Attend the December meeting and get the scoop on what can be coming attractions...

here are some teasers....

>...Buell demo truck...

>...construction of a riding range...

>...exploring the possiblity of Erik's band at Gail's...

>...Battletrax (when the riding range is completed...)

>...purchaser of Buells given membership into our BRAG with the first years dues paid by the dealership directly to our club...

...like they say before the evening news...

"end of the world in five minutes... film at eleven!!!"

PLEASE come to the meeting Thursday... there is much to hear... you might just hear something you like!

NON-BRAG members... are also invited to this meeting... ya just might hear something you would like... and become a member!


********************
Court... I'll save you a chair at any of the meetings!!!

(Message edited by dasbuell on December 13, 2004)
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Gravedigger


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Will you have dancing girls at the meeting? If so, I might be convinced to make the 3 1/2 hour trip over! Dumpster diving and a tire gauge just aren't quite enticing enough!

Then again, any chance to catch up and BS with Das Furor is well worth the trip!
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Digger...

Funny you should bring that up... I was about to amend the post for the third time and add that teaser. There was a couple of dancers who said they would come for a very cheap price... what does "in drag" mean??? Are they racers??? They said they knew a guy known as digger... would that be you!!??


beside that...

Vee haf vays of making you join!!!

BTW... I guess I can't ride my BMW to meetings and such any more!

April there is club officer training a few hours riding from here over a couple of days or three... you think I can go for three days with only one change of skivies? Cause until they make a sport touring Buell... a pair of skivies is about all the room I have in my tank bag after the other stuff I carry on the XB. I just can't see riding my BMW... the smell of urine on the ride back from the other attendees using my "porta pottie" might be too much!

I will consider you at the meeting in "spirit"... and I will try to hang onto a tire gauge for you. You can have the "estranged membership fee" a nice bottle of vanilla vodka... and it can even be the cheap stuff. But don't tell my family doctor, my cardiologist, or Sharon! ...or anyone on the BadWeb!!!

There is also no need to be formal... a simple Your Majesty will be fine, knave! Today BRAG... tomorrow the world!!!!!!

...and for those who are wondering... yes, I am immature... and no, I don't take much "heart attack" serious! I tried that once... my doctors tell me it is killing me!
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Tripper


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I think ya' all just suck. I miss my home! Where's a damn straight road around here...
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Tripper


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Greeting earthlings. I bring you news from downtown St. Louis...


Well Dennis let most of the cat out of the bag, which is something I was holding in for the following reason... if any one of those things does not happen someone is bound to climb up on this soapbox and complain that our {hosting dealer/Director/Previous Director/Pick any one of these} did'nt do anything for ME! Just think if any ONE of these happens, what an exciting event it would be. As I said earlier, there are many things happening behind the scenes, pitch in and help make it happen! Start by attending a meeting. Hey, I even saw a club member buying accessories at Gail's last weekend. What a turnaround that is! Life ain't perfect, but it's better than the alternative.

Fuscat, where are you? It's happening!

You guys are going to have BIG fun.
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

DasBuell posted... "get the scoop on what can be coming attractions..."

As is if all jells... everything in life is if all works out past the can we and planning stage. ...come to the meeting and get more than a teaser... Looks promising... work is needed to make it happen... from both sides. We will do our part... let's all make it happen!!!

This is what we... as in club and sponsor... see as possible club evolution. No one looked at us like we were nuts... (well maybe at me... but not as it relates to BRAG) when this was discussed... there was not even a blink or a raised eye brow at any of this... more like a yeah, cool, that sounds good... when this all was discussed.

I see that as promising... and I have no doubt... that if we do our part... much of that could happen.

But... we just can't lean back in our chairs and wait and see. Stir the pot... pi-zz each other off... trash things club related... etc. Opportunity seems to be knocking... we have to get off the sofa and answer the door! THEN work together on this.

I have made the decision... that for MY schedule through out this winter... try and make it to the dealership every Saturday... learn... talk... politic... shake hands... be recognized by those who make this stuff real. I would like other club officers to join me when possible... so we are as well known and as well represented as HOG officers.

He-ll... I even got a call from New York City this morning (NEW YORK CITY!!!) offering assistance in the Erik's band idea... and whatever other help is needed (with in the limits of what one person can do)!

I think the big key in this all... is us as a club showing we WANT to be a club... and show up at events and rides... show up at meetings... work to make it happen... to show we are worth the trouble and expense to do all this stuff on the table. If we don't put together and support BRAG activities... the blame for stuff not happening could be directed by us... back at us!

This is all going to be what WE make it, we have to take advantage of the opportunity.





(* Editorial note... I feel like I am giving John Belushi's speech - Bluto - in Animal House!)

Bluto:What?! Over? Did you say over? NOTHING is over until WE decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? HELL, NO!

Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the going gets tough . . . the tough get going. Who's with me? Let's Go! Come on! AAAAEEEEEGGGHHHH!!


Otter: Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons. But that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I hear voices...

a collective...

"There is something wrong with that boy!!!
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Gowindward


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

And so, my fellow Buell Riders, ask not what your BRAG Club can do for you; ask what you can do for your BRAG Club.
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Richieg150


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dennis,Kcmobb,or whoever:
FIRST:When the news of Gails being our new sponsor was announced,I was all Positive,saying lets give it a chance and see what happens.....thats not part of the problem,thats part of the SOLUTION.
SECOND:I'm not try to embarrass you or anyone else,by stating quotes,I wont have the problem of others taking what I have said out of contex,because I wasnt the one saying it..And yes I have strong opinions,if I'm right-I will stick to my guns until the end,but if im wrong-I will say so and take my lumps.You were at the meeting and yes,I was not.I think I have had an open mind all along by trying to say Gails may be a GOOD thing,and lets just see what happens.
THIRD: Dennis,Im sure you will do fine as director,never said you wouldnt.
FOURTH:I know EXACTLY what I posted-and why,Dave posted that when everybody was hammering GAILS,talking only about all the negative stuff that HAD been done in the PAST!The only cages that may be rattled is if the Gail went to the archives and read all the stuff that was said about GAILS,weeks ago.I am thinking,I was supportive of GAILS long before anyone else here was,reguardless of how she runs HER business.
FIFTH:youre the one that seemed to speak the loudest about all the negativity,associated with Gails.To see you saying ANYTHING positive about the situation was very interesting to me,if no one else.I understand all the concerns about this whole deal,all I can do is walk toward the light at the end of the tunnel and just hope its not a freight train heading my way.
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

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Gravedigger


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Dennis,

Hint, the Bodka is on Sam's kitchen counter. It is right next to the Ho Ho's, twinkies and baby bottles. He keeps it in his kitchen because he knows that you make it no further than the frig in his garage! If you rummage around his place a bit, I bet you can find some of the homemade bloody mary mix I sent over to him also.
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Tripper


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

No one at Gails would be surprised to read anything here. The feelings were laid out in the first discussion, and several others. They don't 100% understand them, but they know of them. They are all willing to work through that and win the business of anyone who wants to give them a chance. I tell you there are good deals on 2004 XB-12's available right now.

We talk, they talk, it gets better.

Interesting note learned last weekend: There are 2 key persons at the dealer who have bought XB's in the last few weeks. They are both getting Extreme Makeovers.... watch THE OPEN ROAD tv series for an XB build-off coming up.
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Racerboy


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tripper...Please call me...Try the orifice first...314.821.0776...Home...636.938.3788...

Frank...Please also call me...

Court...If you are going to be in KC for some BRAG and BBQ John and I will try to ride on over...

All...Congrads on what sounds like a very successful transfer of your club...We all need to get to Arkansas soonest this Spring...A deeper penetration of The Natural State is called for...Jerry, Tripper and I didn't make if south of I-40 but I recently attended a rally in Louisiana and rode border to border...There are some more great roads south of I-40 that I was led on by a native who now works for Boing here in STL...

Merry Christmas,

Bob
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S2scott
Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Tripper, Glad you made it safely to St Louis misery or how ever you spell that name, and I hope your job works out well although if it didn’t you might come back and see us again. Good luck and sorry to see you go!
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Dasbuell


Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Racerboy...

YES...

The Mob needs to do an Arkansas trip. That was one of the subjects I want the club officers to address in our meetings. It does not necessarily need to be an Official BRAG trip... but I think to get this club back into why we organized it... we NEED an Arkansas trip or two in 2005... The extended KC Mob is in this too!


Mobbers... and extended Mobbers...

Let's come up with some stuff like this to get us back into focus. Wednesday bike nights are good... but we need to do some local and beyond local rides on a regular basis.


Scott...

I'd like it if you could pass on some of the local rides you did... you found some good local roads. Any idea worth having... is worth stealing!!!


I talked to Court today... and he did not know when... but he was going to get out in this neck of the woods before too long.
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S2scott
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 09:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I am willing to plan a ride a month like I did last year, You wont even have to steal them! I would like to get some feedback on the rides I did, Bill his wife and I rode the last one alone so Bill I would like to know what you thought if that route. Some feedback always helps, Longer, shorter more stops or what you would like?
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Dasbuell


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

One of the "rules" we were given is that all "BRAG" rides have to start at Gail's. This is not to say we can't have unofficial rides... but for it to count to them as a club activity ride... it has to start at Gail's.

The thought was given... that it would be nice to have a ride of some sort every other week. An official ride... it can be a Scott special (and the one I made was great) or just a ride to breakfast, lunch, some place we want to check out (landmark, museum, bike show).

The idea is that if someone buys a new Buell, there is no more than two weeks before there is a ride they can participate in. Remember... Gail's is paying our club dues (and national dues) for that person who just became a Bueller. So besides us having rides more often... we get new members to meet more often, and more frequent rides.

There were complaints... and rightfully so, that most of the time we just kicked tires on Wednesdays... so a Saturday or Sunday ride every two weeks gets us on the road... and get any new Buellers to meet us and on the road with us.

SOOOOO..

Scott, I hope you make the Thursday meeting... I want to talk to you about rides... I see no reason why non club members can't join us at Gail's and make the ride... I will talk more to you about this at the meeting, or in person sometime.

Mobbers...

Any idea for local rides... to see something you think is cool... let me know. I don't expect every suggestion to come with the route and such... but anyone can toss in an idea. It can be a great restaurant... a twisty... or some bike event.

IF SOMEONE WANTS TO VOLUNTEER TO BE THE DESIGNATED RIDE IDEA CATCHER... SEE ME AT THE MEETING

Let's ride this year. Between the rain... personal stuff... etc. We did not ride much this past year. I know my health factored in. I still haven't wore the knubs off my rear tire after replacing the flat!!! Let's change this... no matter what is up with all the club changes!

COME TO THE MEETING FOR EVEN MORE OF THIS INFO!!!
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S2scott
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

The only problem with always starting from the same place is it puts a lot of plain old (same) highway miles in front of the ride. The reason I like to start from different places is so we can enjoy a wide variety of routes. In my quest for fun routes I have looked at that area of the city (Belton area) and have not found a lot of fun roads to ride on. When you head south the roads seem to be straight and boring, West and North you go into the city, if you go east you can find some roads but it takes a while to get there. So in the past I have tried to start a ride in Independence then one in Jo Co, then one in west MO and so on, this also makes it nicer for people that live in different parts of the city to get involved. I am also open to people recommending great roads I can combine into a route.
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S2scott
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Hey I also wonder I have always tried to end the ride at a place we all could eat at and sit together and talk but alot of the time most leave and go home instead of stoping to eat and chat, do you guys want to or not want to stop to eat at the end. Please let me know, you can post here or email me at scott@trible.us
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Tripper


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Think Blue River Road.



Two Basic rules that they will have for BRAG rides...
1. Starts at the dealership.
2. Ends when the kickstands go down at the destination.

You want to go onto another destination, drink beer, commit stupid acts of violence, your free to do so.

I think starting at the dealer is a pretty reasonable request for all the promotion they are putting up. Gives them a chance to lift your wallet. : )
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S2scott
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

I have thought about Blue river road but usually going south to Belton and ran out of good road from there. I know it is not a totally unreasonable request and the reasoning behind it. You have to consider all of the rides I plan are Sunday afternoon starts and they will not even be open then. Does that go to say the want all rides to start when they are open? Just a question to find the answer to, I worked hard last year to plan rides and spent some cold nights after work riding to find great roads so as you can see I will work hard like I did last year to plan some fun rides.

(Message edited by s2scott on December 14, 2004)
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S2scott
Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

As I sit here thinking I have been on alot of Hog rides because I used to own one and when I bought my Buell in 1994 they did not have anything but HOG rides and they did not all start from the dealer, most did but not all and they were all club rides. Just thinking out loud!

(Message edited by s2scott on December 14, 2004)
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Racerboy


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Why don't you guys plan on two rides a month...One, say a First Saturday Ride, starting at the dealership...And another, say a Third Sunday Ride, starting where ever?...The thing about having a ride on a Saturday and Sunday is the Saturday ride can be attended by those who save Sunday for church and family and the Sunday ride can be attended by those in the moto biz who have to work on Saturday...I located Gail's on my mapping software and was surprised at how far south in the metro area it is...That is going to be a problem for those living north...So maybe you could start the Sat ride from Gail's in the south and the Sunday ride from another location more convenient to the others...Your group has always had a bit of a different focus than ours here in STL...Ours is pretty much about riding...I can't get much interest here in dealerships, bike shows and the like...But the best attended event we ever had was an ice skating party last winter...We had almost forty people show up for that and we'll do it again...

Dennis...Get a copy of this book "Arkansas Riders Guide" by Mario Caruso...He lives in Hot Springs National Park, AR and can be reached at 501.622.0987 to order the book and have it signed by the author...Mario is a great guy and knows AR about as well as anyone...

I spoke with Tripper today and we're going to try to get together tomorrow evening...

Bob
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Gowindward


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

How many miles would a typical club ride be on a weekend day?
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Racerboy


Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only) Ban Poster IP (Custodian/Admin only)

Loren...This past Sunday's ride was 238.2 s'miles...We started at a restaurant for breakfast in Washington MO and ended at a restaurant in St Clair MO for their homemade pies...With ice cream, of course...Here's the route...

Cowans Cafe to The Lewis Cafe
Mileage...238.2
Miles
From Cowans Cafe
onto Elm
L onto 3rd
L onto 47
L onto 94
L onto 19
R onto 100 Hermann MO 37.2
R onto C 73.1
L onto A
R onto 50 89.8
L onto 63
R onto 133 95.7
L onto P
R onto T
L onto AA
R onto 63
L onto 42
L onto 28
R onto EE Owensville MO 159
S onto F
S onto CC
L onto C
S onto Pine Bourbon MO 191.6
R onto N
L onto 185
R onto K
S onto Parkway St Clair MO
R onto Main
STOP at The Lewis Cafe on LEFT

R = Right turn
L = Left turn
S = Straight

As you can see we got fairly far west, almost to Jefferson City...But you can tailor the s'miles to the groups desires or you might make the Saturday ride 100 or so and the Sunday ride 250 or so to accommodate as many as possible...The meal stops seem to be a key for our group...Or maybe it's just me...

Bob

(Message edited by racerboy on December 14, 2004)
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