| Author | Message | ||
     Captainkirk |
Having trouble downshifting my last ride...could it be the nefarious evil little e-clip on the shift drum star wheel yet again? It has all the symptoms. Last time around I thought the new steel star wheel would be the fix but... Of course, the only way to tell is to pull the primary and clutch pack and have a peek. Have there been any creative fixes since my last dance? | ||
| Captainkirk |
Yes. Again. Anybody else seen this issue or is it just me? I've contacted several HD service departments. They've never heard of this issue before. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
That's bull that HD service departments haven't heard of the issue. Even if it's not a constant thing on all bikes, we've seen plenty of people on the forum complain about it, how could they work on that many sportsters and never see it happening? I've heard of people wedging 2 clips on there just to hold it really well, but honestly when I replaced my detent and had a 2nd clip, I tried wedging it on and wasn't even close to being able to get a 2nd on. I'd wonder if there's any kind of snap ring you could fit in that groove that would wrap far enough around that it wouldn't pop out. You'd probably need a thin washer under there to make sure there was proper tension on the detent plate. Only other thing I can think of is the fix I mentioned in the other thread. Do you know have anyone with a lathe? If you're already down to the shifter/detent, it's really not much work to pull the whole shift drum. Might be time to try and have it drilled & tapped just to be done with it. | ||
| _buelligan_ |
If no one in the service department has heard or run into this its because they don't have anyone that's been turning wrenches long enough or at least been working on Harley's long enough, remember, it's been 17 years since that transmission has been in production. Out of 11 techs we have only 3 who have ever touched a Buell and only one knows anything about them. Whenever one does come in on trade or what not, the engineering still blows most of the techs minds. You can drill a hole and put a washer or flange bolt in or Baker sells an upgraded shift drum and shift star for it, pretty pricey though. | ||
| 89rs1200 |
As noted elsewhere in BadWeb, the updated Harley-Davidson shift star is nearly identical as the Baker one. Costs about $5.00. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Actually, for the price, the Baker shift kit mod sounds like a smart investment. Not only do you get a brand new shift drum and detent plate, but easier shifting as well. Either way you look at it whether you mod your present drum for a tapped bolt or throw in the Baker kit, you're gonna have to yank the trans,Under $300.00 seems like a fair price for peace of mind. Because if I slap it back together for the 4th time, I'm sure there will be a fifth. Last time it failed I was a mile from the house, but had just completed a hundred mile ride. I'm definitely considering it. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
I agree. The 6 speed transmission looks amazing, but costs more than my entire bike did. The smooth shift kit seems pretty reasonable though, especially considering the trouble you've been going through. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Oh, and I should mention...the Baker detent plate is attached with a threaded screw. No cheesy spring clip. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
As nice as the Baker shift drum looks, here's a cheap option. Maybe a little red Loctite just to hold it on for sure. http://xlforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=198227& page=3 | ||
| Captainkirk |
You know, I actually thought about doing that but wasn't sure about the following things: 1) Can the shaft be threaded in situ (installed in place)or must it be removed from the bike and/or tranny? 2) Is a standard die tough enough to thread the hardened steel shaft? 3) I was unsure of the clearance issues between detent plate face and clutch basket. Now I know. If threading it requires removal of the trans and drum, it might be worth the money to install the Baker shaft as it reportedly helps make shifting easier (compared to my Jap bikes the Buell is horrendous) BTW, I love your S1 in your profile! Thanks for the help! | ||
| Captainkirk |
Also, it's unclear if the Baker detent plate is steel or aluminum, as it's described in the product description as "billet". Could be billet steel or billet aluminum. I'm assuming the former as the original Harley parts were aluminum and a disaster. I have an inquiry in to Baker and will report my findings. | ||
| Captainkirk |
It's billet steel. | ||
| Upthemaiden |
I think you could thread it in place, if there's enough clearance for your tap wrench, but, I'd be hesitant to put that twisting force on it, worried I'd bend something in the transmission. Could also end up with shavings in the transmission. Honestly, by the time you get that far into the engine, you're only a couple minutes from pulling the transmission and removing the shift drum. Can't say if a normal tap would cut it or not. | ||
| Captainkirk |
"Honestly, by the time you get that far into the engine, you're only a couple minutes from pulling the transmission and removing the shift drum." Yeah, I thought about that as well. The right time to loosen the final drive sprocket nut would be with the primary in place and the lock tool between the sprockets...so I guess I would have to partially reassemble? I don't currently have an impact socket big enough for the drive sprocket nut...anyone happen to know the correct size? And I believe that nut is LH thread... | ||
| Captainkirk |
A look inside  | ||
| Captainkirk |
As you can see in above photo, beveled end of shaft is starting to show battle damage, as is the edge of the detent bearing roller. | ||
| _buelligan_ |
You don't need to remove the main shaft sprocket to pull the transmission unless you want to change out bearings while you're that far into it. | ||
| Captainkirk |
"You don't need to remove the main shaft sprocket to pull the transmission unless you want to change out bearings while you're that far into it." No? Never had the trans out before. How does it come apart? (Message edited by Captainkirk on April 26, 2020) | ||
| Captainkirk |
I've ordered the Baker Smooth Shift Kit P/N 271-5. Enough is enough. The standard shift drum and detent plate is a Mickey Mouse affair and has no business being installed in a performance motorcycle. Not to mention the fact that the standard config shifts like a Mack truck to begin with. Yeah, it's a lot of cabbage, but ripping into my primary every couple years has gotten really old, not to mention the uneasiness of riding a ticking time bomb, never knowing when it's gonna blow. I'll try to document the replacement as best I can for those of you considering this. BTW, Dennis Kirk has at least one of these kits left for $30.00 off list and free shipping. Just sayin'. | ||
| Ocbueller |
Pay extra attention to the detent plate when you install the Baker. I used what was supposed to be an updated Buell detent and still have trouble with neutral when hot. I believe with a little filing on the detent it could be cured. Like you I don't feel like going back in again. SteveH | ||
| Captainkirk |
Steve, why did you choose not to use the Baker detent plate? | ||
| Captainkirk |
Yes. It's true. 5 bolts and 5 minutes! 5 BOLTS  5 MINUTES  I had questions, but rolling up my sleeves and digging in got me the answers I needed. Q: Do you need to loosen the rear axle and tension on the drive belt to allow the tranny to slide out? A: No. I used a rearset stand to allow the rear wheel to rotate freely. Trans popped right out. Q: Can you check the needle bearings in the case with the trans removed? A: Yes. Mine all look good but if there were broken or rusty needle rollers you could tell by looking and rotating them with your fingertip. Q: Can you rotate the 5th gear/belt drive sprocket and check for wobble/noise/end play? A: Yes. as long as the rear wheel is elevated and you can rotate it. | ||
| Captainkirk |
Lots of empty space here. Very, very clean as well. No metal shavings found.  So far, so good! | ||
| Upthemaiden |
Glad to hear you went for it. It's a bit of money to throw at something just because of rough shifting, but if I had those clips falling off, I'd definitely have the cost justified in my head... Add in new clips, oil, primary gasket, shipping, special tools you need to make, and all the time, it really doesn't pay to keep going in there, and the benefit of smooth shifting would be a huge plus. Shifting is definitely the biggest downside of my bike. I've adjusted the clutch cable, tried every shifter you can get for the S1, and the only answer to getting a good shift is still for me to really lay my foot into the shifter and be very conscious of it when I do. Post some pictures of the process and please let us know how much of a different you feel once you've got it in there. | ||
| Captainkirk |
I'll do that. I'll post more pix than Carter's has little pills...as for shifting, I had pretty much resigned myself in the past to only riding the Buell with steel toed engineer boots. Even if it improves marginally it will be a good thing! BTW, looking at the geometry of how the parts move, it's easy to see how and why the e clips keep breaking. Every time the shift pawl pulls up on the shift drum pins, it also moves outward, putting a rocking motion on the spring clip. Due to the design of the clip, after hundreds or thousands of flex cycles, its bound to fracture and that's why it does, right in the center. Both halves drop off and there you go. It's a good thing the drain plug is magnetic. No telling what kind of mischief the clip halves could do in the trans... | ||
| Captainkirk |
Another pic of the tranny  View of the needle bearings and bearing cups  Detent roller arm and spring. New Baker drum comes with a lighter spring.  | ||
| Upthemaiden |
There's a noticeable difference in shifting if I use my sidi riding boots thanks to the stiff sole and shift pad on top. I pretty much only use the bike to commute at this point though, so the riding boots get old after a while, so I typically just ride in doc martens that I can wear all day. Shifting isn't as nice, but it works. | ||
| Ocbueller |
I believe at the time the hot setup was H/D #33656-90A for 91 and later XL's. Did this more than a decade ago. SteveH | ||
| Captainkirk |
Baker just arrived. It's pretty apparent as to why they call it a "smooth shift kit", lighter spring notwithstanding. Look at the difference in profile between the Baker and the roached-up HD part I removed: The old HD part...  ...versus the new Baker drum and detent plate.  How could it NOT shift smoother? IIRC, this is much more similar in profile to the old Harley part originally installed. I will certainly have a lot more confidence in the screw than THIS:  | ||
| Upthemaiden |
That's what always confused me. We upgrade our detent plates to the new one for better shifting, but if you want to pay for the smooth shift kit from Baker, you end up with a detent plate that looks just like the old one we all replaced... I assume the majority of the change comes from the shift drum though. I've even heard of people getting really good results from polishing the channels on the stock shift drum. |
