| Author |
Message |
    
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 05:19 pm: | 
|
dasbuell- really nicely put. nice to hear you have a sar garand. i used to buy 'sporterized' garands and restore 'em to mil spec, when i was teen, same time i was buying triumph choppers for next to nothing, along with baskets of tossed-away stock parts, and restoring them to stock.
the garand is one of the most utilitarian weapons ever manufactured, amazing how accurate that autoloader is even without a matchgrade bbl. don't let that one go, man. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 05:28 pm: |
|
imonabuss- i wasn't there, and neither were you.
lemme ask you something.
if it was YOU,a good white fella in that treestand, getting rat-packed by a bunch of slopes, and YOU got the hell out of there quick-like while they called YOU a cracker-white roundeye piece of whatever and trained their weapons on YOUR caucasian arse, and then YOU set up nearby and started plinking them off, (and when it all comes out in the wash, those 'unarmed' hunters just might have fired on him first, neither me or you actually know), would you feel that you would deserve a 'lynching'?
'cause if i were the guy in the stand, i woulda taken out even more had they fired on me, first.
look- he could be absolutely 100% in the wrong, I don't know- problem is, neither do you, and the fact thatw e don't just run around, screaming like banshees for revenge and stringing up anyone who we have 'heard' is guilty, without checking the facts first, is what separates us from the towel-heads over in iraq, my friend. let's act like americans, and then if he's guilty, zap him. let's just make sure first. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 05:40 pm: |
|
This will be one of those deals that might take weeks to even begin to sort it out. Many of the details that have been reported in the first 24 hours will be wrong. We, the public demand tha the media tell what us happening right now and that pushed them to grab a straws.
When charges are filed we will get a much better picture of what happened. This will not tell the whole story, only the story the prosecutor wnats told however. More details will come out in court and unless you are sitting watching every minute on Court TV or in person you will not get the whole story even then.
While it is happenig reporters will attempt to distill 5 hours of testimony down to 5 minutes. Than we will complain about their accuracy and or bias.
Some justice will happen, will it be the truth? Will it be fair? Will it be equitable? Probably not but it is the best system humans have been able to work out so far.
VERY VERY SAD ABOUT THE WHOLE THING |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 05:46 pm: |
|
Tramp -- right as rain, we just don't know what happened -- lynching COULD be the right cure, but the party to be lynched is still up in the air
the furor around this is a little scarey -- |
Dasbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:12 pm: |
|
I have wanted a Garand forever!!! Back in the stone age when I was in High School ROTC... we first had M1 Garands... then later M-14s. My dad was a WWI Navy Seabee, and he carried a Garand in that war.
I bought a high quality matching re-weld a number of years ago... it looked perfect... and you really had to know where and how to look at it to see it was a reweld. I sold that rifle and hated that I did. I had a Steyr SSG, government contract sniper rifle over run... put it up for sale... and it sat for months on consignment. I finally asked the shop owner if he would take it in trade for the Garand. I got the rifle I always wanted... cash... and we were both happy... I will NEVER sell that rifle... it is the last true battle rifle ever made... and nothing will ever match it!
About the shooting in the woods... there is SOOOO much we don't know. We are doing an injustice... to ourself if we speculate who did what and who was right (or more right) or wrong... and from my near 30 years in law enforcement... we should take what is reported by the media with a grain of salt. Most of the time the pieces of the puzzle they assemble to report what happened has a good number of the pieces in the wrong place.
I will say it again... We may never know what really happened in those woods. As time goes by more of the puzzle pieces will be placed in the correct location to put together a more accurate story... but those that died... will never tell their part of what happened... without regard if they were victims or aggressors. No matter what happened... and who did what... it is the families of ALL involved that will be the victims of the incident... and the publicity surrounding the incident. I see families of victims and of defendants almost every day... and they had no part of what happened... but I see the toll it takes on them.
No matter what really happened... those that have formed their opinions will believe what they want to believe. We were not there... and we will only get a reconstructed view of the incident... from varied opinions, views, and collections of fact and speculation.
No one should have died, killed or been placed in danger over a stupid deer stand! No matter who did what!
It is very sad!!! |
Phillyblast
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:14 pm: |
|
Tramp,
You nailed it. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:29 pm: |
|
..."can see it now, to prevent future misunderstandings concerning Trespassing, all private property will have to be fenced and posted every "X" feet. Why do I get the feeling that even that won't stop trespassers."
Down here in MO, private land is marked with purple ribbon or paint. That helps distinguish it from public land. But, when do you know you've stepped from one piece of property onto another? Not every tree is marked and not all markings are clear. You just just have to know.
I used to hunt on 800+ acres surrounded by other private land. Fortunately for me, the owner had lived on the property for about 50 years and had excellent knowledge of where his acreage stopped and another owner's acreage started. Lots of high vis markers everywhere. He also had an excellent map of his acreage and 'distinctive' deer stands and made sure that everyone who was hunting was aware of where other hunters were in that area---don't leave to hunt without letting 'Uncle John' know which stand you would be using and which area you would be hunting. Basic rules.
Oddly enough, one evening I heard movement and carefully lined up a scope to get a look...turned out to be a hunter in full camo---without the required orange vest---from adjoining property---stalking and trailing. When he came in closer I 'politely' informed him that he had 'strayed' a bit and reminded him that he should be wearing his vest...no threatening gestures or words for sure! And I made sure to tell everyone back at camp that there was a hunter out there in camo without an orange vest to make sure there were no accidental shootings!
It just sucks to be at a fixed position knowing that there are other folks in the same vicinity with high powered rifles that could very easily put a round through a wooden stand... |
Outrider
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:41 pm: |
|
Anybody else here wondering just how much effort is being expended on scouring the crime scene for bullets of Non-SKS origin in the trees?
Sounds like a really difficult task to me and that is what prompted me to ask.
I also wonder if the crime scene investigator's also checked out the firearms belonging to seven of the eight victims back at camp?
I find it hard to believe that seven people would be out in the woods during deer season without their firearms, even if they were only going out to check on a trespasser. Then again, this could easily be explained if the incident occurred either before or after hunting hours.
Just wondering out loud. |
Buells Rule!
(Dyna in disguise)
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:53 pm: |
|
My original scenario I posted matches the one Vang claims almost exactly. As I said before I work directly with 4 guys from Laos & I have seen first hand the attitudes some people give them. Racism towards them is the same as it was for the blacks down in the south with the lynchings & the cross burnings.
You shoot at me first & I guarantee I will shoot back. Whats the guy supposed to think other than "they are going to kill me"?
And no other guns? Thats real hard to believe. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 06:54 pm: |
|
Hey Dasbuell, are there any Pintos left around to run over people with? The 7.62 x 39 does compare to the .308 in caliber size. The powder casing is shorter as is the bullet itself. The 30/30 winchester is also similar, but a lot longer powder casing, almost twice as long. |
Dasbuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 08:06 pm: |
|
Tom_b
Yes you are right... the projectile is measured the same diameter. 7.62mm, .308, or 30 caliber. What some might not know... the SKS round is 7.62 x 39 mm, where the .308 is 7.62 x 52mm. A larger case. The ballistics are quite different with the maximum effective range of the .308 being being considerably more. The ballistics of the SKS round is very close to the .30-30 round. I did not explain this well before!
AND... you have a point... I have not seen a Pinto in a very very long time! ...nor a Vega! |
Davegess
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2004 - 09:09 pm: |
|
Anybody else here wondering just how much effort is being expended on scouring the crime scene for bullets of Non-SKS origin in the trees?
I am sure that LEO's are going over this with fine tooth combs. The State Attorny General is going to prosecute according to a press report and I would think she has the state crime lab all over this. This will be very high profile and how well it is handled will certainly affect her reelection.
Deer hunting is a religion here in Wisconsin so this will be very important, no expense will be spared. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 02:10 am: |
|
Distinguishing a bullet fired from an SKS from a bullet fired from any other rifle is basic ballistics. Barrel twist rates are obvious as are lands and groove depth. Bullet weights are different; an SKS shooting factory 7.62x39 is typically loaded with 125gr bullets with velocities ranging from approximately 2300fps to just over 2500fps maximum velocity. Other bullet weights are available, most typically 110gr and 130gr moving at maximum velocity between 2200fps to just over 2500fps(Lyman 47th Reloading Handbook). Standard bullet diameter for this particular cartridge is typically .311 but bullets available for handloading are typically .308.
Typical 30-30 Winchester ammunition used in tubular magazines is flat nosed or blunt nosed for obvious safety considerations. Ammunition dimensions are listed as 7.62x51 with a bullet diameter of .308. Bullet weights will range from 110gr round nosed for plinking and varmint applications to 150gr and 170gr for larger game. Velocities for the 110gr bullet will typically range from approximately 2000fps up to 2800fps at maximum velocity. The 150gr bullets will run from 1900fps up to approximately 2500fps. The 170gr bullets will range from a modest 1900fps up to a pounding 2300fps. That is a stout load in a lever gun!!
The Winchester .308 (7.62 NATO--7.62x54) will shoot bullet weights ranging from the 110gr up to 190gr with most velocities ranging from 2500fps up to 3200fps for light weight bullets; the midweight bullets hover around 2400fps up to a sizzling 3100fps with heavier bullets ranging from 2200fps up to 2500fps. The 130gr bullet can be pushed up to approximately 3100fps, an excellent choice for deer sized game!
The Winchester 30-06 is typically 7.62x63. Ballistics are nearly identical to the Winchester .308x54 (.308 NATO) for all bullet weights. It's ballistic superiority is achieved with higher speeds---200-300fps faster than the .308 NATO round.
Interestingly, there has been no mention of the firearms collected from the hunters...
Fresh bullet marks on trees are sometimes very easy to identify, especially for a trained technician.
Like everyone is pointing out, a lot of information is missing. A whole lot. One thing for sure, not to sound crass or heartless, those hunters messed with the wrong Hmong.
Does anyone else here that hunts ever go into the woods without a sidearm? My .45 Long Colt Ruger Blackhawk, Magna-ported and actioned is ALWAYS at my side in the woods. I could die from being shot, but I damn sure won't die because I ran out of ammunition or guns...have we heard that before? |
Rek
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 08:43 am: |
|
I can't beleive how closely related this thread is the another on this site and both scare me to death. Don't get me wrong, I love to hunt (esp. those elusive grouse), I have guns the whole nine yards. But to go out into woods that are filled uninformed, apparently semi-homicidal, hunters is insanity. Is that what hunting is really like back east (of Montana)? No wonder folks are happy to plunk down $2K for three days of hunting on our ranch. And here I thought they were just too rich to know any better.
Rob |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 09:29 am: |
|
And now Vang is being considered in another shooting a few years ago.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/278124.asp?format=print
This is going to get messy on many levels. |
Dasbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
|
Not that it matters... but I was doubting my memory (old age sucks!) as 7.62 x 52 that I posted did not look correct... but I was too lazy to look it up... as I thought I remembered. When Kevyn posted 7.62x54... that looked less correct... (not intended to criticize)
So... I looked it up, what I should have done the first time instead of being lazy.
So... to correct postings. The .308 Winchester round, aka 7.62 NATO round is actually 7.62 x 51 mm. Not that it changes anything... just that for the anal (like me) I had to fix the error.
Some what changing direction... refering back to "a stout load for a lever action" If you want a stout load for a lever action... try .450 Marlin caliber. It is rated between a .45-70 and a .458 Win-Mag. Out of a carbine that is not much more than a yard long. One word can describe it. OUCH! But I love the gun!
What I want... is a lever action in .454 Casull. Winchesters come apart... not a strong enough action. Sole Italian makers have tried... I have no confidence in their strength... and Marlin has not shown any interest.
AND... yes... that case will be a mess... between the inability to interview most of the participants... and the crime scene in the woods... WHAT A MESS!!! |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:18 am: |
|
kevyn- often in investigations involving ballistics, projectile weight becomes an unreliable indicator, as expird projectiles will both lose fragments and even pick up new material (eg: after passing through flaky substrate). an indice which will be very useful in this investigation will be the *composition* of the projectile, as a, thankfully, our laotian suspect likely used norinco chicom ammo for his carbine, and it has a different ration/blend/form of lead than the likely R-P or Win. ammo the cauacasoid hunters were firing. x39 ammo. typically used by american hunters, esp. the thrifty ones, (such as hmong et al.) will be chicom with the variant lead comp. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:24 am: |
|
Hunting on public land is inherently dangerous; lots of hunters going into the woods on opening day. Some of those hunters have spent months ahead of time scouting locations or already know an area and are hurrying to get there before someone else does. Many opportunities for heated confrontations over a hunting location or when bullets come whizzing too near! And that may be some of the logic used in Illinois for using shotguns only during the deer season...a slugs energy is well spent after 200 yards whereas the typical rifle bullet still has considerable velocity well beyond 300 yards and in the case of the .308 caliber bullets, well out to 1000 yards or beyond depending on the rifle caliber used.
The public hunting areas here in MO are surrounded by private property. Usually, the public lands are fenced but that's not always the case and it's way too easy to wander onto someone's property. Usually, private property is clearly posted as such but not always.
What do you do if you shoot an animal on public land only to have it cross over a boundary onto private property? MO law says you must contact a game warden and track the wounded animal...realistically, that's not always the best scenario, especially with a trophy animal. If a land owner finds a dead animal on his property he can do several things: he can wait to see if someone is nearby and tracking the animal to where it's fallen; he can contact a game warden after marking the location; he can claim the animal on a land owners tag; he can leave it for scavenger animals or he can take it back to camp and let someone else claim it on an open tag; depending on his ethics, he can take the antlers and leave the rest. Most of the local game wardens know local residents and know pretty well where private property is located and the surrounding terrains. However, there are only a few game wardens available to take care of what seems like huge tracts of land with many hunters.
What's it like in WI?
A guided hunt on private lands in the western U.S. is pretty neat! Considering many 'ranches' encompass thousands of acres over challenging terrains, hunting with someone who has intimate knowledge of the area and the animals is a blessing. Throw in comfortable accommodations and some good food and the scales are tipped. However, not all of us can afford the $$ or take the time to travel or can take the time off or even want to travel when we can hunt locally and still get the satisfaction 'hunting' provides.
The WI shooting is very sad. Its brought unwelcome and negative attention to a cherished tradition. Its brought negative attention to firearms. Its also brought to surface some ugly racial prejudice. Not to mention a tragic loss of lives that reaches far beyond the people killed into the lives of their families, friends and communities. |
Henrik
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
|
My dad had to stay an additional 2 weeks in the army when they received the new (to them) Garand rifles - needed to be trained in the new weapon. 30 years later I did my boot camp training with a Garand rifle. Very accurate and nice to shoot. The loud "Pling" when the clip was empty and ejected, announcing to the world you were out of ammo, seemed counter productive though 
Henrik |
Newfie_buell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 10:39 am: |
|
Well up here you can go for hours and not see another hunter!!!!
We have a lot of hunting & fishing camps in the interior of the island as well as Labrador.
Those that have been here can speak of our wilderness areas.
We also cater to a lot of hunters from the US these days too. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 11:14 am: |
|
Dasbuell, I use a .356 Winchester lever rifle handloaded with 180gr flat-SP. I've also used a 220gr flat-SP. Both rounds are pretty devastating on impact. Actually, accuracy is best and consistent with 158gr flat-SP bullets intended for hand guns. Much easier to shoot well with the reduced recoil! Should work just fine on deer sized animals.
I've always wanted a .375 Winchester but unless I want to take on game larger than Whitetails, it's a bit much. I've always thought of the .450 and larger guns as 'bear stoppers' for close call situations and not necessarily as an all around shooter. The .454 Casull pressures are indeed too intense for lever actions but if there was a market it could do well in a bolt action like the TC Contenders.
AS mentioned earlier, I'm working up loads for a Ruger Mini-30 (7.62x39) in a true .308 bore size. Accurized and actioned by Chief AJ with a very nice target group shot with factory 'white-box' Winchester ammo. In the dense forests here in MO, if you get one shot its got to be dead-on because you probably won't get a second unless you catch them in the open between fields. Most of the shots are well within 100 yards negating the need for high powered longer-ranged, heavier bullet type hunting typical of the western U.S. Although I know many hunters who are very happy using a .308 Winchester or the venerable 30-06. Excellent bullet selection for both rounds!
Tramp, as also mentioned earlier I've seen a great buck taken with chicom 7.62 shot from a 'Paratrooper' style SKS! Just doesn't take much to penetrate deer skin or shatter their bone structures. I've also had to track wounded deer at night shot with .308 ammo that penetrated and exited cleanly! There is something to be said for heavy bullets moving at moderate speeds versus lighter bullets moving at faster speeds. Shot placement is critical in any case. |
Along4theride
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 11:45 am: |
|
when it comes to property and hunting rights, some people get downright sensitive to encroachments. And when you couple racism into the situation you just add fuel to the fire.
Totally agree!!
let me ask you-
Who goes hunting without a compass??
Maybe, and I said maybe someone who doesn't have regard for property lines? Someone who is looking for trouble? Especially if it is known that this is a sensitive subject among locals.
I grew up hunting in Colorado with my Father and Brother's. We used to hunt on public land between private land and game preserves- you HAD to have a compass. It is irresponsible hunting without one.
As well as I can remember, and it's been a long time but when I took my hunter's safety course they covered hunting etiquette. Don't they do this everywhere?
If not they should, obviously people need to be told how to be polite and respectful.
No matter how it went down or what happened it wasn't worth 6 lives.
It takes two to tango and I hate to blame the victim but they too hold some responsibility in the outcome of this situation.
If someone is trespassing ask them to leave nicely and if they don't walk away and call the cops. They are the only one's that can do anything anyways. What are you going to do??
Scare the person into Leaving? fear triggers unexpected responses which could be the case here. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 01:11 pm: |
|
"Tramp, as also mentioned earlier I've seen a great buck taken with chicom 7.62 shot from a 'Paratrooper' style SKS! Just doesn't take much to penetrate deer skin or shatter their bone structures. I've also had to track wounded deer at night shot with .308 ammo that penetrated and exited cleanly! There is something to be said for heavy bullets moving at moderate speeds versus lighter bullets moving at faster speeds. Shot placement is critical in any case."
ummmm....great- i never said anything about the usefulness or absence thereof of projectile weight in terms of kill.
personally, as i've stated ad nauseum, i don't use autoloaders for quarry that doesn't shoot back, ie: 4-legged stuff. my '94 (that's a lever action, guys who don't shoot)is fine.
i've never had to track a wounded deer that i've shot with a firearm in my 3 decades (& scores taken) of hunting deer. as i've said- if i can't take the quarry in one shot, i don't take the shot. i've taken well over 40 deer so far with rifle alone.
thank you, nonetheless, for taking the time to educate me about "shot placement"...
(Message edited by tramp on November 24, 2004) |
M2me
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 04:17 pm: |
|
What are you going to do?? Scare the person into Leaving? fear triggers unexpected responses which could be the case here.
I agree with Along4theride on this. It is interesting how this story has parallels with the other gun thread. I don't know what happened in the WI woods that day but I do know this: those who are looking for trouble usually find it. |
Mikej
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 04:19 pm: |
|
Lack of tolerance usually gets the same in return.
YMMV.
The outcome sucks just the same. |
Kevyn
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 02:00 am: |
|
Tramp, you've learned a lesson well, congratulations. With a .44 mag, .45 Long Colt and the .356 Winchester, I haven't had to track much myself. Any experience with handguns for hunting 4-legged creatures? Traditional black powder hunting? Bow 'n' arrow? Compound? Recurve? Long bow? The last few years, I've had to work and missed too much hunting and way too much riding! |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, November 25, 2004 - 10:25 am: |
|
yup- bow all my life, recurve (bear kodiak hunter 40#, bear grizzly 50#), some longbows, no compound. and with bow i've had to blood-track many, many deer.
only time i use a handgun for sporting purposes is for boar, as backup, along with a nice blade.
in europe it's my cz85, in the states it's whatever i gotz.... |
|
