| Author | Message | ||
     Newfie_buell  |
Speaking of Crossing Threads, Watch it or it may get deleted!!!! "Greg the Cross-Threadder" Now thats funny!!!!!! | ||
| M2me  |
Oops, that was a typo on my part. Yeah, I think it was a 20 round clip. That is a "little uncommon" for deer hunting. Even with a 5 round clip you're dreaming. One shot, maybe two. After that you're shooting trees, not deer. Or you're shooting people. | ||
| M2me |
Sorry, but I have to correct my own correction. I just saw on the news that it was a ten round clip. It's estimated that twenty rounds had been fired. The local news is reporting that this guy has a history with domestic violence involving guns, etc. It's a developing story and we'll have to see where it ends up. | ||
| Captainkirk  |
I just got back from hunting north of Madison and this is the first thing I see when I log in on the web.....Sheesh! FYI: I've known several guys who hunt with sporterized SKS carbines. The 7.62X39 is basically a NATO .308 which makes a fine deer cartridge. The rifle is a semi-auto, which is also not unusual.(Although I've never known anyone to hunt with a 20 rd. magazine). What IS unusual is a) five guys rushing out to a tree (without a rope) to remove an individual, b) only one of them is armed(?) c) a guy trespassing on private property, trespassing in somebody's personal stand gets removed, starts to leave, and opens fire. Somethin's just not right. I'm sure we'll hear more as time goes on. I also found it unusual that charges are still "pending".... | ||
| Dasbuell  |
Assault rifle = fully automatic by actual definition. Assault rifle = machinegun M16 or a M4 rifle used by the military is an assault rifle. An AR-15 though very similar IS NOT an assault rifle. AK47 is an assault rifle. The AKs sold to civilian and SKS rifles are not assault rifles. A Ruger Mini 14 is not an assault rifle. A Mini 14 does not raise an eyebrow to many... though it is patterned off a M14 assault rifle. At the end of WWII when many of the battle rifles were sold to civilians in the 60s... many 03A3 US rifles and Mausers (bolt action battle rifles)were sold to sportsmen. Later even some M1 Garands (semi-auto battle rifle in 30.06) found their way into the hands of hunters when soft point ammo was available. All three were battle rifles! AND... good medium to long range hunting rifles. SKS is a semi-auto. I think the most it will hold is ten rounds. SKS has a fixed magazine and the 7.62x39 cartridge does not compare to the .308 or as the military calls it... 7.62 mm. The SKS round is actually closer to a lever action 30-30 Winchester round.. and with the right ammo (soft point/hollow point) is actually a good hunting round for short to medium ranges) The guy could have done the exact thing with a typical bolt action scoped "hunting rifle". Which when you compare that to a military rifle could be called a "sniper's rifle". The point is not the rifle used... the point is the intent of the user. So a guy who runs over a crowd of people in a fit of road rage driving an Hummer or H2 used a more evil vehicle because it is based on a military Humvee... it would have been more acceptable if he would have done it in his Pinto? Not until there is human interaction... does anything to do with the item matter. The evil is in the person... not the item. Had he used a hunting knife... would he have been even more evil if in its place he used a bayonet? rant over!!! | ||
| Vegasbueller  |
"Dont bet on that, a full grown buck will kick your •••. They are fragile looking but very strong animals. " Speaking of that, did anyone here ever see the video of the gomer that covered himself in doe scent and then got his butt pummled by the pizzed off buck that showed up looking for some love action? Man that was a classic! The guys wife kept filming it the whole time this huge buck is just kicking the siht out of this dummy. Gene pool cleansing at it's best.  Sorry.. I know off topic somewhat from the thread, but that just caught me kind of funnny | ||
| Kevyn  |
Just for the record, last time I was checking in at the 'station' a good sized buck in full rut was taken by a lady shooting a 'short' SKS. Excellent shot through the neck with the bullet lodged just under the skin on the exit side. Haven't used it yet, but I have a Ruger Mini-30 that I intend to hand load with soft points. Should be a tad less brutal than the .356 Winchester or the .44 Mag or the .45 Colt--although the .45 Colt round with 240gr soft points from a Winchester Trapper lever gun is one of the best 'brush' guns short of the .444 Marlin's. Long time ago, one of my hunting compatriots who was going through a rather nasty divorce just after mine suggested that we could all go hunting and see who comes back...I politely declined and have changed hunting partners since. Bruce Springsteen has a nice ballad about racial tension between Vietnamese immigrants and locals in Galveston...turned out way better than WI... | ||
| Reepicheep  |
You can buy an M1 Garand today, right off the arsenal shelves. (http://www.odcmp.com/). They are very cool, mine was built (AFAIK) 3 months before D-Day, and may have seen action in either Europe or the pacific, perhaps Korea. It is an amazing piece of history to actually hold and operate. You can get an interesting russian bolt action battle rifle from around 1946 for under $100 (www.aimsurplus.com). The sweedish mausers, built in 1906, have some of the smoothest bolt actions I have ever felt, and I got mine at a sporting goods store for $79. None are legal for deer hunting in Ohio though... | ||
| Mikej  |
Further news reports are saying the shooter has been in the U.S. for 20 years and that he is a U.S.Army veteran. As noted above there was more that happened out there in the woods than the initial reports are saying, but still that doesn't justify the net result. And one of the three wounded people has died making the count six deaths. I'll not comment here (restraining myself) about the news services sensationalizing the firearms aspects of the situation. | ||
| Bomber  |
while it's true that the Hmong and Montenyards (close cultural relatives) have a tenuous grip on the concept of private property, I'm betting this individual, having been in the states as long as he had, understood the concept completely -- the quote about these people coming into the area being pathetic is illuminating, I believe, but the entire story is not public, yet -- something tells me we may never know all that happened -- nonetheless, sad, disturbing, and tragic break break I've got an M1 Carbine that was built in 44 by Rockala, the juke box people ;-} -- great plinker, not legal for deer in Illinois (shotgun state, at least it used to was when I hunted), and, like reep sez, if that piece could talk, the stories you'd hear! break break while the above definition of assualt rifles is pretty much accepted, municipalities often define them differently -- in Chicago, the deciding factgor is the number of rounds you can load into the mag -- most tube fed .22s are considered asault weaps in the City of Big Shoulders | ||
| Dasbuell |
I have a new Springfield Armory M1 Garand... and the quality on it is fantastic. I want to get a DCM Garand... but I just have not got around to it. I need to before they are all gone... or destroyed. There are so many ways the shooting could have gone... as an investigator... it is WAY too early to assign blame as to how it happened or who drew first blood. It could have started from either side... and the late arrivals to the fracus might not even know who shot first... just that some guy in a tree was shooting at his buddy. There have been big LE shooting where after action interviews have been done... and all the late arriving officer knows is that everyone else was shooting... so he/she joined in. (Big shoot out kinda thing like the bank robbery a few years back in LA or the SLA firefight in the 60s, or that kinda of thing... a rare true firefight. Not the typical its over in 2 seconds incidents.) "Why did you shoot?" 'Because everyone else was shooting!" and they might have never had a clear target... just shooting towards the bad guys. When rounds start flying... it gets very confusing... survival starts taking over. It is called the fog of battle. Very complex to sort out when there are very few survivors to interview! I am waiting until the investigation is over and not making any assumptions as to who shot first, or what happened. Here is what I do know... If I was up in a tree stand (right or wrong to be in it) and some guys goes off on me and points a rifle at me or "fires a shot over my head to scare me"... OR... I walk up to "my" tree stand and some guy in the tree goes off on me and points his rifle at me... or "puts one in the dirt to scare me off"... HOUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM! I will do whatever it takes to go home safe! We may never know what fully happened! | ||
| Dasbuell |
I SHOULD ADD!!! That might be a tactical retreat... or it may be a stand and fight... it depends on what is needed to survive! | ||
| Mikej |
Yeah, that LA shootout in the streets was something. Lots of stories behind that incident as well, on many levels. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Mike, Very similar to my car but mine is green. I was out at it last night as I decided to do some long needed maintenance. This winter I will change all fluids, new battery, front wheel bearings (rest of front end components have been replaced), I want to put performance springs/struts, heavier sway bars and possibly urethane bushings. Back to the story, Its all over the news up this way as well, How did he manage to gun down that many people so quickly. Was it the Gun Used?????? and if the magazine was 10 rounds he must have been a good shot to get all or most of them on target!!! Wow - damm disturbing at any level. I actually saw the LA shoot out on TV and that was amazing as well, those guys had so much armor on. | ||
| Bomber |
Newf -- the weapon is only part of the story -- just like with motorcycle's, in which the rider is the vast majority of the equation, in this case, combat/firefight, however you refer to it, the person behind the weapon makes all the difference there is a huge difference between hunting game and shooting a person, and many folks, thanks goodness, do not cross that line, ever, no matter what (interesting statistics on how many infantrymen, independant of country of origin, do not ever actually shoot at the enemy -- much lower than one might think) in this case, without knowing the events, it's not particularly usful to guess, but the person behind the weapn makes all the difference | ||
| Newfie_buell |
The person makes the difference in all cases....no matter what topic, event, or anything else they undertake. | ||
| Mikej |
How's this one, close? Main concerns are timing and logistics. And of course in-person test drives/rides to be certain all parties are good with the deal. | ||
| Outrider  |
The rifle used in the recent hunting incident does not alarm me. What does, is why does any hunter need a fully loaded 20 round magazine? Most semiautomatic hunting rifles come with a 5 round magazine and that is more than enough to get your deer tag filled. In my never so humble opinion, anyone that needs more than that shouldn't be out hunting, they should be at the firing range learning how to shoot. | ||
| Mikej |
(edit in process) (Message edited by mikej on November 23, 2004) http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/277651.asp?format=print
Something in this part of the reported details doesn't ring true. Vang is 36 years old, making him born in 1968, and if from Laos as reported he lived there at least through the early 1970's. Reports state he's been in the U.S. for twenty years, meaning he came here when he was 16 years old around 1984. Report says he was/is a truck driver with six kids. Some reports do say some of the hunters at or arriving at the scene may have returned fire, giving pause to consider the possibility of who shot first. Wildassedspeculation might say someone shot a warning shot into a tree to scare Vang off and to let him know in no uncertain terms to never return nor tresspass again, I dare say this will be presented as a scenario in his trial by his defense attorney. I'm not trying to make excuses for Vang, just showing a possibility based on my own past encounters with various peoples in the distant past. Why would Vang stop to remove the scope from his rifle? The reports makes the situation seem too calm and quiet right before Vang started shooting. "(I) asked him to leave", hmmm, okay. Regardless, things got out of hand. Many years ago my dad was deer hunting in Washington state up in the Naches area and he shot a deer. As he approached the deer several hunters came over the top of a hill and began to yell at him. They claimed the deer was theirs. My dad knew he shot and hit it, and knew he didn't hear any other shots. So unless the other hunter shot the same deer at the exact time my dad did then they were just taking something that wasn't their's. And my dad said he offered that possibility and wanted to check the deer over for more than one bullet hole. They would have no part of that, and with four against one my dad decided it wasn't worth it and backed slowly away. Bottom line, when it comes to property and hunting rights, some people get downright sensitive to encroachments. And when you couple racism into the situation you just add fuel to the fire. I do not know what happened up there this weekend, but I can see several possibilities. One is that Vang got mad, lost his temper, and opened fire unjustifiably because he wanted to hunt on private property and didn't like being told to leave. Someone will crack and tell a different tale of what really happened. The two people Vang might have been hunting with will be found at some point to add their viewpoint if they're able to. The bottom line is that this situation will affect all of us for years to come. I simply hope the true facts become known and that justice is justly served without any plea bargains or technical SNAFU's. I'll be watching the case somewhat closely over the coming year. And until charges are finally filed we won't have a clue about the "why" of why this happened. (Message edited by mikej on November 23, 2004) | ||
| Outrider |
Mike...Don't understand the "Edit in Process" thing. However, to respond to the now lost post, I simply read it in the various news sources including the Milwaukee Urinal, er...I mean Journal. Regardless of what actually occurred, a good defense would be that the private land was not properly posted. The result would be a "do not go to jail" card and additional expenses to be incurred by all property owners with posted land. I can see it now, to prevent future misunderstandings concerning Trespassing, all private property will have to be fenced and posted every "X" feet. Why do I get the feeling that even that won't stop trespassers. | ||
| Mikej |
Bill, I'd missed the part that his rifle had a 20 round magazine, thereby making it most likely a detachable magazine, which is a very common modification to the SKS's. The edit in process was just my way of saying I'll be right back after checking a few possible facts and to correct anything I'd just blasted out. I've got a 20-round detachable magazine for a pump action 30.06, but I never load it past 10 round when target shooting because the bottom of the magazine pops off from the recoil. Not sure if I even still have that magazine, might have swapped it off for some dry flies or fishing hooks or something. Arguing "needs" is a slippery slope process. Do we really need a bike that exceeds 65mph on public roadways? Do we really need a bike with an engine bigger than 180cc's? I won't argue "needs" in this case. I will simply say the shootings should not have happened, and I fear it will affect all hunters in this and neighboring states for years to come. I'll stop here before I get political.  | ||
| Mikej |
Side note: out west I used to gather firewood to heat the house I was living in. The area I collected and cut firewood in was checker boarded with state/public/private lands. My permit allowed me to gather wood on non-private lands. With all the mining claims out there I was very carefull to know exactly where I was when I had the chainsaw running. And I know that if I hunt here in Wisconsin I'll have to be just as carefull to know where I am, and now even more so. Sucks as I was planning on doing some hunting in 2005, maybe get the dog trained in the process, and dogs don't read maps too well. | ||
| Mikej |
If this is accurate in the eyes of the state prosecutor then I expect charges will be filed today for at least one of the shootings, with further charges coming later as more evidence is gathered. I suspect one count of 1st degree murder, two counts of 2nd degree murder, three counts of either 2nd degree murder or aggravated assault with intent to kill, and two counts of aggravated assault with intent to kill, felony flight, evading arrest, tresspassing, and at least one illegal weapons configuration charge due to the probable magazine capacity. from: http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/277904.asp  | ||
| Mikej |
http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/277915.asp?format=print
Now charges can be filed. Imagelink from story of the hunting site: http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/huntJ3112204.jpg  (Message edited by mikej on November 23, 2004) | ||
| Tramp  |
as i've said, i've hunted since i was a tyke, bagged my first buck at 9. only targets i've fired at w/autoloaders (incl. ak/sks/ series) have involved the inanimate (such as paper) and the kind that fire back. (although i did use a nice M1Carb. for whitetails in brush as a teen) i use a mod. 94 30-30 w/iron sights, or my moss. pump or my franchi-zoli o/u .20 fer bird. if i can't make the shot with one round, i don't take the shot. anyone who needs an autoloader for deer really needs to spend more time at the range and less time jerking off to the cabela's catalogue. i also don't shoot my deer from stands, but that's another issue, and like the former, that's my thing. | ||
| Mikej |
I'm not much on stands either, but they're the big ticket in this region with both firearm and bow hunters. Still a few people around who can track and trail though. | ||
| Bomber |
I don't hunt anymore ( the joy of walkinng round the woods with a long arm kinda faded after my post grad work), but I call many hunters friends, and am very supportive of sportsmen-related issues -- the incidence of folks getting shot due to idoits in the woods does seem to be on the upswing, and this incident can only make things worse, on a number of fronts . . . the best we can hoep for, in this case, is a clear cut case of guilt on the part of one party or the other -- sumpin tells me we won't be that lucky | ||
| Dasbuell |
An SKS in it's original form DOES NOT have a 20 round magazine. Though a large number have been modified to use AK47 magazines (30 rounds)... I will stay with my original statement of a ten round magazine... one that can be loaded quickly. Many years ago a cop stopped a revolver shooter on the way back from a pistol match... he asked the guy why he shot an old fashion revolver when an auto was faster. The shooter offered and did show up at a range to show him why. He could shoot and reload so fast... he out shot the officer with his hi cap auto pistol. It's not the gun... the shooter! An SKS rifle has a 10 round fixed (non-detachable) magazine. Less can be loaded into the fixed magazine to meet hunting regulations. Just like the enbloc clip of a M1 Garand which normally holds 8 rounds have been modified to limit the number of rounds to meet hunting regulations. I have also see people who can load and shoot a Remington bolt action rifle... accurately so fast you would almost think they were shooting a semi-auto. As said above... it is not the rifle... it is the rifleman! You may be limited to the number of rounds in the weapon to meet hunting regs... but that does not mean that you can'r have a whole bunch of ammo in your pocket! Gotta run!!! | ||
| Mikej |
"State of Wisconsin, Circuit Court, Sawyer County Probable Cause Statement and Judicial Determination" http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/nov04/statement112304edits01.pdf | ||
| Imonabuss |
This guy was unquestionably determined to murder these folks. It wouldn't have mattered how many rounds he had in his clip. He chased down and murdered unarmed people. The death penalty is the only right thing here, and it ought to happen fast. A lynching this week would be clean and simple and right. Of course it won't happen, the trial will drag out for five years, with claims of mental distress, and temporary insanity. And lots of mad political scrambling and posturing will happen around semi-automatic weapons. Why? All the lawyers out there need employment. What a mess we have these days. At least we didn't elect two of them as Pres and VP! |
