| Author | Message | ||
     Aesquire |
Don't forget, Rocket has an Italian Bike in the UK, where they drive on the "wrong" side of the road ( sorry, but us Yanks, p,o'ed at the mother country, did it "Wrong" just to P#$% the Brits off ) I'm sure that explains it.  Like I said when this counter steer argument began, "Counter steering is absolutely vital to understand. I run into riders that insist they "lean the bike" with body english. I'm amazed they are alive." Since we all agree that yanking the bars in one fashion or another leads to the bike turning, and no one left here believes that all motion results from toe pressure on the inside peg, or other nonsense, lets move on. If a ford drops a muffler in front of us, both I and Rocket will pull or push on the bars to avoid it. Good enough for me. | ||
| Court |
I conducted an accidental experiment this week....I dropped the torsion bar and steering link from the bottom of a Ford F-250HD on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway to see what the motorcyclists behind me did. All of them pushed the bar on the side they wanted to go to.   Really happened but as luck would have it, it failed as I turned in the drive. Silly, yeah I suppose. But no sillier than arguing something on the internet that physics explained (so did Steve Anderson) years ago. Court | ||
| Road_thing |
Yeah, those flimsy Ford front ends don't stand up very well to curb-jumping and screaming u-turns in Gotham traffic. Probably no more than 200,000 miles on the clock, too. Tsk, tsk. rt | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
This may sound a stoopid iggnerrant question, but has any of this discussion helped anyone go round corners any better. I can't fault the entertainment value though, Look out! Here they come again!  | ||
| M1combat |
Well, I'm trying to get back to lines... That should help plenty of people. | ||
| Rocketman |
M1, in your above statement you'd be swimming. Let me ask you a question M1. What does throttle control have do with your chicane scenario? But no sillier than arguing something on the internet that physics explained (so did Steve Anderson) years ago. Then why are you Court? So what qualifies Steve Anderson the expert to write about steering? Like you sometimes, he's a journalist isn't he? Which means he knows what? How to tell a good lie or write a good yarn? What are his credentials that dare you to put up his name in this discussion? Please tell, chapter and verse. Hell, anyone can write a book. Would I too be considered an expert if I wrote a similar book to Steve Anderson's? Some might think so. As for those physics experts you speak of, where are they with their conclusive findings supporting yours and others blinkered opinions? I ain't seen 'em around here, nor their conclusive findings either way. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
"What does throttle control have do with your chicane scenario? " Thae same thing it has to do with any other situation... You roll on the throttle, the bike starts to stand up and increase radius unless you allow the steering head angle to change. It transfers weight to the rear tire ond off of the front tire. Many people have said that you can settle the bike a bit by using throttle and brake at the same time. Why do you ask? | ||
| Crusty |
Lines are those white things on the mirror next to the razor blade that you don't want the cops to find. What else do you need to know? | ||
| Rocketman |
Why do you ask? I've done trying to teach you the fundamentals of cornering. If you think you can go through a chicane simply by controlling bar input then you're going slow enough to do so, in which case, when you turn the bars you will be turning them in the direction you wish to go in each corner. If you're going as fast as the chicane will allow, you will not stand the bike up by counter steering, nor will you command the bike in which way to go by counter steering. You will simply counter steer or not to keep the machine on a desired line around each or every corner. Counter steering is NOT the overriding factor in direction change. If it were you'd induce a high or low side. You FIRST need to appoint the motorcycle the direction in which to go, be it in one corner, or two corners as in a chicane, or more if so, by turning the bars the direction you are going. Only when the bike has turned that direction will you counter steer to balance out corner angle, lean angle, weight shift or whatever. Kappish? Your contact patch \ tyre shift analogy is twaddle dude. I'm done preaching to the preached. Go ride. It's Sunday. Come back when you've got through Revelations. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
If prowess on the track is any indication of knowing how a bike steers, then Sean is certainly not one to be giving lectures. As I recall he was quite the lapper at Croix.  | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Blake, that was just pointless. | ||
| Buells Rule! |
Why is it pointless? Rocket claims he is a master at lines yet obviously cant even hold his own. | ||
| Court |
Pointless? . . . here in the "Midst of MENSA" dialouge? Go figure? | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Next lap, Here we go round again, | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Blakes photo was pointless only to show that Rocket was travelling at low speed and was turning. A motorcycle turns much differently at higher speeds (usually over 20kph and this differs from bike to bike depending on rake, trail and other things) than it does at lower speeds. At lower speeds you MUST steer the bike as turn the wheel opposite to the way the bars are turned. SLOW SPEED "To turn left you push the inside of the right bar, NOW OPPOSITELY, you can pull on the outside of the left bar and get the same effect" HIGHer SPEEDs "to turn right you gently apply pressure the inside right handle bar OR gently apply pressure to the outside of the left handle bar" ITS THE OPPOSITE TO TURN IN THE OTHER DIRECTION The physics it I am not really cared about, who cares. The only thing I can figure out by this whole thread is that YOU Are all agreeing to disagree on the same concept. OK from what I see Grumpy lets get the popcorn for lap #4 | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Blakes Shot is good for low speed but for higher have a look at this one. Bike is turning right at higher speeds, notice how the front wheel is turned out to the left a little. WHY Because either there is pressure applied to the inside right handlebar or the outside left handle bar.  | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
You get the popcorn I'll get the hotdogs, | ||
| Buells Rule! |
Bike is turning right at higher speeds, notice how the front wheel is turned out to the left a little. WHY Because either there is pressure applied to the inside right handlebar or the outside left handle bar. Or the rear brake is locked up..notice the smoke in the pic. Doubt highly if that guy is backing it into the corner there. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Why don't you ask the Motorcycle Online Test guys from where that pic was taken? If you enlarge the shot there is absolutely no sign of rubber, skid or any other kind of smoke. | ||
| Rocketman |
This thread proves one thing if nothing else, Blake and Court. There's a chink in your armour. The only reason you two are posting in this thread is to try and make me look stupid. Just goes to show your BadweB rules and etiquette only apply to the minions eh. Let me tell you something. You're both pis5ed if you think you initiate turning a motorcycle by steering in the opposite direction to the corner. It's that simple. If you can push the bar with your inside arm, more power to ya. I can't on my 916 and that's a fact I've reported here. It's also my belief that most everyone here riding on two wheels is under some strange illusion they push the inside bar rather than pull the outside one. If you feel the need to try ridicule me because of my beliefs, I don't have a problem with that. As far as I'm concerned I've got the balls to argue my beliefs here. If you feel my argument is worth your vain efforts at trying to ridicule me then you're just a couple of sad bastards who need to get a life. By god dare anyone ever say anything that you two don't believe in, no matter what the fcuking subject. As for my track riding skills, I didn't like Croix. It's a technical track with not one nice flowing corner. That pic was taken the first time I'd ever laid eyes upon the place. The kitty litter corner is up hill and unsighted to the right and very much off camber over the crest. I tried too hard. Big deal. Still, no one any good ever ended up in the kitty litter eh. Grow up and smell what you're shoveling. Your reference does show how low you're prepared to stoop in your efforts against me though doesn't it. You know, I'm done trying to keep on your nice side. I suggest you contribute to this thread when you've got something constructive to add, otherwise go ride your bike and prove me wrong, or better still, fcuk off. Rocket | ||
| M1combat |
You keep getting little details mixed up. "You're both pis5ed if you think you initiate turning a motorcycle by steering in the opposite direction to the corner. " You initiate LEAN by steering to the outside, then the lean begins to pull the bars back towards the inside (and ultimately actually TO the inside) due to the caster/rake. At this point you turn, but maintain counter steer pressure to maintain lean angle. Because you turn by leaning, one must initiate lean to turn. Therefor, you turn to the outside first to initiate lean and then turn... Anyway... There's really no point in this thread anymore. Ride however you would like to Rocket (or anyone else for that matter). Just ride. | ||
| Biknut |
i think you have to counter steer but hey what do i know. i never won a road race, but i haven't fallen down in the last thirty years of riding. that one time a few years ago doesn't count because there was a log on the ground and my leg was between it and the bike. i was just resting. | ||
| Blake |
And M1 you stating the same over-generalization... not all bikes require constant steering effort to maintain their track through a turn. Mine doesn't. Neither do most repliracers. Once in a turn, I can let go of the bars and continue tracking the turn just fine. My steering is neutral. I've raised my front forks just 1/4" (6mm) and wow, what a difference it made in the steering. I've ridden some bikes that required a constant effort on the bars acting to steer into the turn in order to keep them tracking through the turn. That trait, the steering effort required to hold a bike on track through a turn, can vary from bike to bike and depends on the geometry and suspension of the bike. Sean, You are acting like some kind of omnipotent authority, all the experts (Keith Code, Tony Foale, etc...) be damned. Here's an experiment that might teach you something. With your bike supported by a rear wheel stand, sit on it in normal riding position. Now, without changing position or forward lean or anything else, quickly pick your left hand up off the grip. What happens? The handlebars turn hard left. Why? Because you were pushing on the right grip. Case closed. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
This is the way I look at it, I don't care that I haven't worn off all the little rubber bits on the edge of the tyre, I don't care that I haven't got knee sliders ground down to zilch. I don't need to think about what I'm doing as it takes my mind off other things like traffic, My bike goes round corners very well, I'm not really bothered whether I'm pushing or pulling or leaning or whatever, Does this make me any less of a person? I think not! I have nothing to prove to anyone, If I'm riding with friends and they get ahead of me because they go round corners faster than I do, so what, they'll wait for me to catch up later. Enjoy your riding don't get too wound up in the technicalities of it. Y'all have a nice day now y'heah | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Actually if you had to put that much thought into turning you'd be out in the ditch. Whats the difference in pulling on the outside opposite bar or pushing on the inside? IT HAS THE SAME EFFECT. Personally I like pulling on the bar - been doing it for years !!!!!! Hey Grumpy, I got that CD of the photos burned sitting on my desk with another that you left in the changer from my car. I will get that in the post over the next week or so. Rocket, I have not forgotten about your shirt your looking for either.....the local Harley/Suzuki shop got me pissed with them over parts I wanted ordered for my DR650 a while back and I really have not been back there. It appears that unless your looking for Harley parts they can't supply anything else without a lot of effort. Now everyone chill out, have a cold beer. Does anyone have any diagrams to back up their theories? Can we say Round 5 Starting? | ||
| Bomber |
me, I'm saying that my bike is msarter than I am, and gets itself round corners pretty nicely, as long I don't do anything silly | ||
| Xb9er |
Here's an experiment that might teach you something. With your bike supported by a rear wheel stand, sit on it in normal riding position. Now, without changing position or forward lean or anything else, quickly pick your left hand up off the grip. What happens? The handlebars turn hard left. Why? Because you were pushing on the right grip. Case closed. True only if "normal" riding position to you consists of pushing forward on both bars. ...but maintain counter steer pressure to maintain lean angle Lean angle can be maintained with the front wheel off the ground. Mike. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
You can't have been pulling on it that much Newfie, I've seen your family! | ||
| Newfie_buell |
And my glasses prescription is not very strong!!! | ||
| Rocketman |
The trouble with this thread is some have undertaken to take the 'fight' out of it. In doing so, their input has ruined what was a good technical debate. I claim to be no expert but I do know what I do when I ride a motorcycle. I don't need to be good, or bad, on a race track or anywhere else to have an understanding of what my arms are doing with the handlebars. It helps to have an understanding of how a motorcycles geometry works, and I do have that. I don't need to put up my CV here to prove anything, but I'll mention my skills have reached beyond the conventional at times when it comes to motorcycles. After serving my apprenticeship on motorcycles, I went back to my first passion at the time, cars, working as a mechanic for a few years, until I got going on my own specializing in Saab's. My hands get dirty pretty much every day. Well they would if I didn't wear gloves to the job, but you get the picture. If anyone feels they're better qualified than I, then I believe you, but if I say something I see as correct you will not prove me wrong unless you show me conclusive proof. That's what I've asked for, and nothing more. Putting forward names like Keith Code or Tony Foale to support your beliefs is one thing, but show me where they've conclusively proved the points we've talked over here. Frankly, no matter how smart they or anyone else may be, I'm not interested in what they have to say unless they can back it up with proof. Just because Code says we all turn outside to the corner to get turned in doesn't mean I have to agree with him. Personally, I think he missed out the finite detail and skipped into the corner so he wouldn't be challenged by having to explain the laws of physics as they apply to motorcycles. After all, he's got a book to write, so wouldn't want to dwell too long on the debate of the 'chicken or the egg', suffice to say though, if Code were absolutely no question right then why is the jury still out with other more scientific bodies for example? You tell me. All I know is what I do, and I'm sticking to it whether whoever's reading this, or Blake, or Court, or anyone else tells me otherwise, unless you can prove me wrong of course. Rocket |
