| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
I'll ask you this Rocket... In my request above, I asked you to give a gentle push to the left bar. You said "but yes if you push the fcuking bar the machine will turn - obviously. That doesn't prove a bloody thing.". Right. It doesn't. Because you didn't say which direction the bike will turn. Which direction will the bike turn? I'm not talking about the first 5mm of travel but if you were to continually apply that gentle force to the left bar until you come back around in a circle, which way would the bike turn? Clockwise or anti-clockwise? Left or Right? It would continue around in a perfect circle to the RIGHT in your scenario because you applied a constant pressure, thus you just steered a perfect arc in the RIGHT direction, and get this, it wouldn't matter whether the bike was leaning to the left or right, given the laws of physics would allow this experiment of yours. Blake.... On the track hurtling into a hard left-hander I crank the front wheel hard to the right, the bike leans hard to the left and I let the wheel/bars come back around and turn into the curve. That's it. Anyone who tries to peddle anything different is sorely mistaken. No you don't UNLESS your lean angle already to the left dictates so. That's because if your lean angle is already to the left you are already cornering, ie steering into the direction of the corner. If you approach from upright you will INITIALLY input a turn to the left. Your problem is you're missing that initial and fundamental first input because it happens so quick. Man I'd love to watch you race, if for no other reason to coach you on how to do it properly. Are you out of the novice class yet? Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
sheeesh -- I hope no new or soon-to-be riders are reading this "man, I was gonna buy a motorcycle, but even guys that have 100 years of experience between them can't agree on how the things work -- no wonder they fall down so often" | ||
| M1combat |
You're confused Sean... Go try what I asked you to try (keep in mind I did not say constant angle on the bars... I sad a constant pressure on the bars). DO NOT hang off either way. Just push gently on the left bar. You will turn left. Your circle will be anti-clockwise. You are mistaken. I'm done with this thread unless we would like to move to mid-corner... Quite frankly though, we should have started with brakes and if anyone would like, we could start another thread about lines because this one seemed to get off topic rather quickly and lines are nearly as complex and important... Anyway - to sum it up... To enter a left hand corner push forwards gently on the left bar. To enter a right hand corner push forwards gently on the right hand bar. You'll mostly want to give the bike it's head, but maintain constant pressure (not angle) or the bike will just right itself and go straight. | ||
| Lake_bueller |
Don...Just for the record, you're right on about how all this works. I've never tried applying constant pressure with constant speed but I'm guessing you'd make a perfect circle (given a large enough area). | ||
| Blake |
Sean, As one who has participated and not totally sucked at road-racing a motorcycle, I must say that you appear to be very much confused concerning the steering input required to turn a motorcycle at speed. I'm 100% confident that my description of motorcycle steering input approaching a turn is 100% accurate. But what do I know?... I've only put over a thousand miles on the bike while lapping the track at speed; physics is a hobby of mine; and competent professional road racers have corroborated what I am saying, not to mention virtually all experts in the field who have published their thoughts on the issue. You are either completely misiunderstanding my terminology or you are all alone in your belief that to intiate a turn on a motorcycle you initially turn the wheel into the turn. Suggest you take to the road, going in a straight line approaching a curve and when the time comes to get the bike leaned into the curve turn the front wheel towards the outside of the curve. If you initially turn it to the inside, you will run off the road, and I don't want to see you crash that nice Ducati. | ||
| Court |
>>>to initiate a turn on a motorcycle you initially turn the wheel into the turn. Blake: I am a construction worker; that is impossible. Want the aviation corollary? Try putting an airplane, choose any configuration you want, about 2" above the runway. Now, yank the yoke into your lap to go up and see where you go. But, hey....I'm a construction worker. Court | ||
| M1combat |
I must be dumb... I can't make any sense out of your post Court. I don't think Blake said that you need to turn into a corner to initiate a turn. That was Rocket's position. As far as the aviation corollary - I think the tail would smack the ground and the front would do the same just after... Followed by all sorts of interesting displays of the laws of physics. I have a feeling that a plane like an EF-2000 would make it, but I'm probably wrong  . | ||
| Steve_a |
It's really simple: you turn the handlebars clockwise (right, or steer to the outside) to lean left. You turn them back past center to stop the roll motion you just induced. Steady state around a left corner, the bars -- unless you're running a lot of slip at the rear tire -- will be turned to the left. To stand the bike back up quickly when leaned left, you start by turning the bars counter-clockwise, further left, into the corner. Alternatively, if you want to tighten your line, you turn your bars slightly right -- and this is one reason there are a lot of single vehicle crashes in decreasing radius corners: many riders don't know this, and don't have it programmed into their reflexes. And you'll probably never understand what you're really doing unless you try riding one-handed for awhile, so that your gross body movements don't mask what's happening at the bars. | ||
| M1combat |
Correct... It is really simple. | ||
| Blake |
Thank you Court. Thank you Steve. Good to see we are still sucking you into our twisted world. I think I have found the source of Sean's confusion. He is obviously driving on the wrong side of the road. Seriously Sean, try the one handed routine. Court, May I try that aircraft maneuver in a Harrier? | ||
| Blake |
How many of us have for whatever reason resorted to holding the throttle via our left hand. THAT will seriously mess with your mind; initially it is extremely disconcerting, almost like trying to learn to ride a bike for the first time; if you are confused as to which way to steer to keep the bike on the road, you will soon learn the truth when trying to steer via left hand on the throttle side handlebar. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
Court, You are the second person I have known to compare it to a airplane. A Search and Rescue Helicopter Pilot took our training course this summer and he made the comment that "A motorcycle is the only land based vehicle that has to bank in order to turn" At speeds above 20kph generally you apply gentle pressure to the handle bar in the direction you want to turn. | ||
| Court |
>>>It's really simple: you turn the handlebars clockwise (right, or steer to the outside) to lean left. You turn them back past center to stop the roll motion you just induced. I find both comfort and distress when one of motorcycling's most respected engineers needs to straighten us out on what appears to be intuitive to most. Steve . . forgive us and don't deduct that one from our total! Thanks, Court | ||
| Outrider |
I am still doing the LMAO Thing over this tread. All of you are pretty much saying the same thing only differently. Well, with the exception of one or two that are probably getting more confused by the moment. Sometimes communications like this need a extra assistance. Perhaps using graphics and some quotes might help if you want to pursue making a point. Then again, isn't that the purpose of the riding courses and how to books? The books pretty much are all alike. The primary difference being the author's style of communications. Some author's are much easier to follow than others. The secondary difference would be perhaps on some way advanced race techniques which really don't apply to many of us on this thread, much less this board. Relax, enjoy and take the time to figure it out for yourself at a comfortable pace. Above all, please don't adopt something you read and run balls out to Deadman's Curve to test it without first working up to it. What works for one riders style may be detrimental to another's when you are running close to 100%. I like you guys and would prefer to see you live to argue another day.  | ||
| Aesquire |
Airplane yoke? you pull back to go up, then pull back more to go down. ( do not try this at home!! ) In the real world, watch a Hang Glider pilot doing hanger flying, the hand motions are all wrong for conventional airplanes. To speed up in a Piper, push yoke forward. In a hang glider, pull bar back. ( body forward ) I taught that your body is the stick, that helped keep the Piper pilots out of the Corn. A little. | ||
| Tripper |
pull back to go up? that depends on your bank angle.  related question... can you do a large circle in the horizontal plane by performing snap rolls?  | ||
| Blake |
Court, Were you able to apply any of this type of maneuvering expertise during your honeymoon? Never mind! Do not answer that online! An old gymnast honeymooner with such knowlege could only be extremely dangerous. | ||
| Ingemar |
How many of us have for whatever reason resorted to holding the throttle via our left hand I did that on my bicycle once (well, not on the throttle obviously) and thinking back on that makes my scrotum hurt all over again.  | ||
| Rocketman |
Respected engineer's, authors on the subject, mechanical physicists or otherwise, the very first movement on your bars will be in the direction you want to go. Only then will counter steer in any aspect of its description become a necessity. I will not have it any other way. I am god. I am right. Rocket | ||
| Bomber |
Blake wrote An old gymnast honeymooner with such knowlege could only be extremely dangerous. also, injured! | ||
| Court |
Tripper: Took me years to learn that throttle controls altitude and the elevator controls speed. Me?...in a Pitts S2A.....wanna go for a ride? The last guy who offered to snap roll MY plane when I was acting as PIC was given my passionate speech about the wisdom of the Lord in the direction he pointed my sphincter in this world and my commitment to maintaining that orientation. Blake: Make that "retired gymnast". I was good enough to play it for a ride through college but the back double I attempted, to impress the kids friends, a couple year ago...well....didn't. People still laugh when they see gold medals in Men's All-Around in my office. That was a loooooooooong time ago. | ||
| Road_thing |
Key word was "attempted," I think... Careful, Court, over 50 we don't heal so fast anymore! rt | ||
| Court |
"attempted" was, in my words, "inaccurate". Properly stated, a 1-3/4, landed in the springs, is total and complete FAILURE. | ||
| Bomber |
any landing you can walk away from . . . . . | ||
| Thunderbox |
If you are driving straight and you put pressure on the left hand grip the motorcycle will steer to the right. This is called the countersteering effect. If any one would drive their motorcycle and try this they would agree in an instant. I taught Canada Safety Council Motorcycle courses and believe me this is the way it works. It's a fundamental riding element and you are not even aware that this is happening unless you get on a bike and purposely try it. I would put money on it. Just let me know how much and who will hold the cash until I can pick it up. | ||
| Steve_a |
Rocket, you share your beliefs with about half the motorcyclists out there -- which just points out that the majority opinion isn't necessarily right. You'll have to prove this to yourself experimentally. Try riding with just your throttle hand on the grip down a straight stretch of road, and see what happens when you push or pull on the bars. BTW, Yamaha published a very interesting SAE paper in the seventies testing various skill level riders on a lane-change accident avoidance maneuver. The bike was instrumented with a torque sensor between the handlebar and triple clamp, as well as a steering position sensor and roll-rate gyros to look at what the bike was actually doing. Racers and highly skilled riders put a sharp opposite direction input in to start their turns, and went through much faster. Average riders had a much more gradual input, that while counter-steering eventually, didn't do so nearly as extremely. They couldn't get through the obstacle at nearly the same speed as the racers. I've always theorized that most riders counter-steer unconsciously by large body shifts that have the effect of putting in the required steering input without them being fully aware of what they're doing. But in this case awareness is power, and anyone conscious of how their steering really works will find a new world of riding opening up for them. Why does counter-steering work? Two effects matter. One, the front wheel is a big gyro which creates precession forces compelling the bike to lean in the opposite direction that it is turned. (That's why you can steer by turning the handlebars when the front wheel is off the ground in a wheelie.) Two, you're actually steering the front wheel out from under the bike to cause it to begin leaning in the opposite direction. Yamaha's testing actually showed this initial out-tracking of the front wheel. Beginning a left turn, the front wheel tracked out to the right initially. (Message edited by steve_a on October 15, 2004) | ||
| Court |
Shame that Abe Askenazi didn't publish his Master's Thesis, isn't it? Thank you Steve. I've always enjoyed your writing, I'm reminded that your keen sense of stating complex issues in an understandable way is one of the reasons. Some folks here are new to Buell, many are new to the sport of motorcycling and are not aware of your background, experience and training. I'd urge them to snag some back issues of magazines and take a read of some road tests that are tests, not advertisements. See you can learn a great deal on the internet. Memo to self:...... Write Al Gore and thank him. Court | ||
| Blake |
I beieve the gyro effect in getting the bike to lean is a misunderstood myth. While gyroscopic precession does indeed exist and does indeed tend for the front wheel to impart forces aiding a counter-steer lean, I think it is a negligible 2nd order effect, especially at rational road speeds. Indeed, the gyro effect makes it more and more difficult to get a bike turned as speed increases. That is one reason for 16.5 inch wheels on the big road racing bikes is it not? Smaller wheels/tires significantly reduce gyroscopic effect. What I am trying to say is that I believe that the reason two that you list is by far, like by orders of magnitude, the mechanism responsible for getting a bike to lean. What is interesting to note is that any single track form of motion requires that the conveyance first be steered opposite to the direction of a turn. This is true of slalom water skiing, snow boarding, skate boarding, roller blading, even of walking. Yes even walking. Try walking quickly on a straight line and execute a quick 90 degree turn to the left. What happens? Your right foot must first move to the right and be planted well to the right of the line. Then your body leans to the left. Same as steering the front tire to the right in order to initiate a lean to the left. | ||
| Crw |
When I was in college in the late sixties a bunch of us had the "what makes a bike turn?" argument (in spite of what the Wright Brothers had already discovered). One of my buddies was sure that shifting body weight made the bike lean and turn, I was sure counter steering (though the term was not known to us at the time) was more efficient. To settle the argument, we took parachute cord and tied it to the handlebars. I rode on the back controlling the parachute cords. He rode on front and tried to steer by shifting his weight. There was nothing he could do to even slightly counter what I could do with the cords. Left cord slack pull on right bike goes left no matter how far to the right he leaned. Pull right cord, bike immediately turns left. Pull left cord, bike goes right And yes, we did toss it down the road a couple times getting the hang of it. At the time this was a major epiphany. It seemed so obvious. Being engineering students we were embarrassed we hadn't figured it out earlier. Nothing like an empirical experiment to make a point. Look at pictures of a bike really leaned over in a turn. Which direction is the front wheel pointed relative to the direction the bike is turning? I have seen too many people screw in a tight situation by trying to steer a bike out of trouble like they would a car. They forget which way the bars really make you turn. I believe lack of understanding of "counter steering" runs a close second to "target fixation" at getting less experienced riders in trouble. Keith Code's Superbike School has a great demo of how a bike steers. They call it the No BS Machine. http://www.cornering.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php (Message edited by crw on October 15, 2004) (Message edited by crw on October 15, 2004) | ||
| Keith |
Going straight and want to turn left? Push on the left hand grip! This is so simple to prove. Stop arguing and go for a ride! Keith  |
