| Author | Message | ||
     Bluelightning |
I found out this weekend that I am not getting any oil to the top end. Pulled the filter and cranked it a few times (would have started but I had the fuel tank off to see what the deal was) to see how much oil if actually flowing through the system. Not a whole lot, and I mean just a trickle of oil is being pushed by the pump to the filter. So I pulled the pump and the gears on the pump and main shaft look good (not chewed like I expected), and I spun the pump by hand with the outlet of the pump off so I could see how much oil was being pushed by the pump, again, not a whole lot of pressure or volume there, so my search begins for a high volume oil pump, or a solution to this problem. Also, when I took the outlet line off that goes to the filter, there seemed to be pressure behind that line, even after I had removed the filter, is it possible that I just had a really bad air bubble in there causing my pump to be air bound? I would have hoped if that was the case, then it would have moved up the system at some point. | ||
| Bandm |
These pumps do not put out much pressure, 1 or 2 psi, warm engine at idle. There is a check valve (5 or 6 psi) to keep the oil light off, and to keep the oil in the bag when not running. The pressure was caused by this valve. Why do you think you are not getting oil to the top end? | ||
| Biknut |
if you're not getting oil to the top end the tappets would probably collapse and start banging and making noise. i would expect that to happen if your oil pump isn't pumping enough oil. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Bandm, I know I'm not getting any oil to the top end, cause I started the bike with the rocker covers off and nothing is coming up to the oil the rocker arms and valves. I mean it is completely bone dry!! Bikenet, that is a big part of my problem. With no oil being moved around, my lifters have basically emptied themselves of all of the oil that I put in them when I assembled the engine and have collapsed. I always thought that the pumps put out more pressure than 1 to 2 psi, so that could explain why I saw pressure when I removed the filter side/outlet line on the pump. I blew air into the line just to see if it was clogged and did feel it coming back to the cam chest with the pump removed. Is my pump fine and it may be my lifters? They are brand new Feuling lifters and I made sure that I filled them prior to assembly and used plenty of assembly lube on everything.. | ||
| Biknut |
sounds like you may need to purge air out of the oil pump. when installing new lifters it can take maybe 20 seconds or more for them to pump up. a little longer than that for oil to get up to the rockers. when you started the motor how long did you let it run? you might try taking out the spark plugs and turn the motor over by hand to get oil moving through the pump. | ||
| Bluelightning |
I'm going to give that a shot, 'cause I was thinking something along those lines when I saw I had pressure on the outlet side of the pump towards the filter, which according to the service manual, feeds the lifters and top end after the filter. With air in the line, it could be causing only a little oil to get through. I know some is because of my previous posts and when I adjusted the push rods again, I always have some oil around the threads at the lifter area. | ||
| Daves |
Can't find an S+S one in our parts book. I talked to the service mgr and he said to just use the HD/Buell one instead of paying the money for a Zipper's. I still feel there is another issue going on here. Let me know if I can help any more. Dave | ||
| Rick_a |
If the clearances in the pump are good...you shouldn't need a new one to begin with. | ||
| Blake |
Put the thing back together and ride it. The oil pump is a positive displacement style gerotor pump that will put out as much pressure as it takes to expell a constant volume of oil per revolution. A few turns of the engine won't pump much oil. When the engine kicks over at 1,000 rpm it will flow quite well and at higher engine speeds it will flow even more. It's a very good idea to follow the service manual and avoid making up your own diagnostic tests. In this case your diagnostic test of the top end oiling system fails to allow for a re-priming of the system and fails to produce a lubricant flow sufficient to indicate the state of top end oiling. Put it together and ride the thing. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Blake, I had it together and running with the rocker covers off. Not a lick of oil was coming to the top. Now I fear that the lack of oil on my short ride around the block has burnt the valve seals now causing them to leak (i.e. blueish color smoke now coming from the exhaust) as I have to keep squirting oil on the valves and rockers to keep them lubed until I can fix this. I have gone through the service manual and believe it or not, the HD techs that wrote that book have failed me this time. | ||
| Thunderbox |
Make sure your idle speed is at least 900RPM anything less you will not get decent oil supply to the engine. This is very imptortant. Do not set your idle too low as it will cause major problems. I run mine at 1000 rpm at idle. | ||
| Biknut |
i'm not sure about your bike but my sportsters oil pump uses two round pins to connect the gerotors to the shaft that turns them. sometimes the pins can shear off. if this happens the gerotors won't turn. also check that the key for the pinion gear that runs the oil pump is not sheared. | ||
| Biknut |
stupid question, there is oil in the oil tank, right? | ||
| Newfie_buell |
There is no such thing as a stupid question??? | ||
| Bluelightning |
Yeah, I check that too to make sure I had oil. It's about 2/3'rd of the way up the dipstick, so I know I have oil. Like I said before, the pump turns freely by hand and when in the bike, it just doesn't push too much oil through. My idle is set at around 1k rpm, there should be some flow as I can see the lower portions of the pushrods are wet after running for a few minutes, it just doesn't seem to have enough pressure to push up to the top or the pushrods. The other option is I have a bad set of lifters or they are too tight to pump up. I'm going to put the pump back in and give that a shot to see if that helps me out. | ||
| Biknut |
are you sure you adjusted the pushrods properly? on mine you start from where the pushrods just touch the lifter, then count how many turns of the pushrod adjuster it takes to screw the pushrods out until they collapse the lifters all the way, then turn the pushrod adjustment back half that many turns. mine are se adjustable pushrods. | ||
| Bluelightning |
As soon as I can get to the bike, I'll give that a shot. I had adjusted the pushrods to fit the new lifters that I had soaked in oil to fill them up prior to starting. I didn't cinch down the lock nuts and the pushrods loosened back up, so I re-adjusted them to what should be right, but they may be too tight now. Duh, I didn't even think of that being a problem. If that fixes it, man will I feel like a schmuck!!!  | ||
| Biknut |
i just looked at the instructions, when you adjust the pushrods you are supposed to rotate the engine so that the tappet is at the lowest point. then you adjust the pushrod to zero clearance. you just take up the slack but no pressure on it. then it says to turn the adjuster 3 full turns longer and lock it down. they recommend you don't turn the motor over for 10 minuets to let the lifters bleed down. these are se pushrods. a mechanic at the stealer told me the other method is also good especially if you don't have the instructions. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Bikenut, that is basically what I did. I found that I am getting oil at the top, just not until the bike hits around the 3500-4000 rpm mark. Did some checking on the Fueling and Jims Hydrosolid lifters and they don't pump up until around 7-8 lbs of pressure. Being that the stock oil light goes out at 4 lbs and the check ball spring opens at 6 lbs, I don't get oil until the motor revs up a bit and the pump creates more pressure. Since it is a complete pain in the arse to find a high pressure pump for a sporty engine, I am checking into a different pressure spring. Heck, for a $7 part, what could it hurt? The theory is that the spring will hold the ball shut until the pressure is 8-10 lbs or 2-3 lbs more than the stock spring. My only concern is that will the oiling system just bypass the filter all together? and at what pressure does the filter bypass kick open? | ||
| Biknut |
if the lifters pump up and don't make noise then it's probably ok. if the oil light gos out but the lifters still don't pump up then it sounds like those lifters don't work well in your bike. at low speeds these motors just don't move much oil, that's normal. | ||
| Koz5150 |
From a study I read the filter bypass can vary greatly depending on which filter you are running. I want to say I read the article in American Iron, but I would have to go home and find which one it was, I don't remember. If memory serves me correctly the Harley filter had the lowest preasure bypass of all the filters. | ||
| Bandm |
The check ball holds pressure in the system between the pump and the oil filter outlet. The oil pressure light switch is located in this section. The engine does not receive any oil until the spring pressure is exceeded. At idle you can have 6 PSI in the filter and 1 or 2 PSI in the engine oil passages. A heavier spring would raise pressure before the check valve, but lower it in the engine. The filter bypass is opened by pressure differential across the filter element. Until the filter element is restrictive enough to cause several pounds of backpressure, it will not bypass, no matter how high the input pressure is. A high volume pump will raise oil pressure, but cause oil control problems without other modifications (restrictors, windage tray/plate, etc.). Mark | ||
| Bluelightning |
I have found a mechanic at a shop that is having the same problem on an M2. He is using stock springs, valves and rockers with SE adjustable pushrods, and JIMS Hydrosolid lifters. He has sent his parts out to JIMS to have them look at it and see what they come up with. So someone else has had to of seen a similar problem. According to the fold out in my service manual, the filter bypass also bypasses the check ball. The stock spring should hold the pressure in the passages at a minimum of 6 lbs at idle and higher as the engine revs (based on the pump spinning faster). So wouldn't me changing the spring to a higher pressure spring make my pressure at idle just a bit more then and not necessarily lower the pressure in the passages on the feed side? | ||
| Bandm |
According to the fold out in my service manual, the filter bypass also bypasses the check ball. Incorrect. The filter bypass is inside the oil filter. It does not bypass the filter, it bypasses the filter media inside the filter. The check ball is located AFTER the filter. The stock spring should hold the pressure in the passages at a minimum of 6 lbs at idle and higher as the engine revs The purpose of the check ball is to prevent oil draining into the engine when it is not running (wet sumping). The check ball has nothing to do with regulating oil pressure inside the engine, it is located BEFORE the engine. So wouldn't me changing the spring to a higher pressure spring make my pressure at idle just a bit more then and not necessarily lower the pressure in the passages on the feed side? No. The check ball prevents oil entering the engine until the pump produces 6 PSI. Changing to a heavier spring would require higher oil pressure to overcome the check ball and feed oil to the engine, lowering engine oil pressure. A lighter spring would raise oil pressure (slightly) in the engine at idle. Mark (Message edited by BandM on October 19, 2004) |
