| Author |
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Johnod
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2016 - 08:58 am: | 
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Someone mentioned that you need new bolts already, but these are special bolts as I recall. I think I got some from McMaster Carr. They are not off the shelf bolts from the local hardware store. |
Brother_in_buells
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2016 - 01:14 pm: |
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http://www.doncasto.net/boltreport.html |
X1bully
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2016 - 06:36 pm: |
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Wow is this common? What happens when it breaks and you're riding? Excessive vibration?? Is it instantly noticeable? |
Yo_barry
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2016 - 11:55 am: |
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"Wow is this common?"
I think it must be pretty common. Al at American Sport Bike sold a billet mount as a replacement.
When mine broke on my S3T, I didn't notice anything different. We were just standing around looking at bikes when I noticed that mine was broken. I rode it 90 miles back home.
I bought the billet mount, a drill bit and an easy-out from American Sport Bike but wasn't able to get the broken bolt out. I was lucky to find a front head on ebay that the seller had purchased to do something on a Blast but never did it.
So Jonathan, I've got a head with the broken bolt still in place. I'm sure a good machine shop could get it together. It's from a 2001 S3T, Free if you pick up shipping.
Barry
Hollister, CA |
S1owner
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2016 - 12:28 pm: |
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Some heat and some talent that bolt will come out and since its off the bike they wont charge much
I will say Barry thats awesome!!!!!! |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 04:44 pm: |
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Barry, PM sent.
Just when I thought I was getting sick of my Buells you guys remind me why this community is the best there is out there. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 04:49 pm: |
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That is awesome. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 04:53 pm: |
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X1bully: As soon as it happened I noticed a marked difference in vibration of the engine. My motorcycle is modified quite a bit so that may make things a bit more noticeable though.
Here is a video of the newest iteration of the exhaust I built for it. This is how it currently sits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77RX6NPtyeU |
Yo_barry
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 05:46 pm: |
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Jon, I sent you a PM.
Barry
Hollister, CA |
Jim2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 06:59 pm: |
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@X1bully When mine broke it was instant vibrations. Of course the sequence for the break is usually left mounting bolt breaks => followed by right half of mount snapping. Then the engine drops down and is fortunately caught by the remainder of the right mount. I was only a couple of hundred yards from my driveway when mine broke. I wouldn't want to ride very far at all with it broken. If the mount were to rotate I imagine the engine could hit the pavement!!! |
Jim2
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 07:02 pm: |
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@Jon Let me know if you need the American Sport Bike mounting bolt extractor, I'll ship it your way. It's basically a hardened pipe nipple extractor of the necessary size, and the appropriate sized drill bit. It worked great for me. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2016 - 10:55 am: |
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Thank you Jim, I'll let you know if I need it. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2016 - 09:35 pm: |
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So I got the head a week ago but I have a 2 month old, a 2 year old and a 9 year old girl teenager, so I have little time!
Unfortunately when the effort to extract the bolt went underway before I got it, the drill bit must have walked and it at into some of the aluminum threads.
Here's a video of me getting it out. And a pic of what was left.
Any advice?
https://youtu.be/_PVaY8reuh8
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Brother_in_buells
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 09:36 am: |
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So it's out ,but the threads are a bit damaged!?
A time sert could fix that,
http://www.timesert.com/
You also make sure that the mounting areas on the head are perfectly straight and level on both mounting holes.
If things are crooked your gonna risk a broken bolt. |
Jolly
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 09:53 am: |
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I had to repair one of mine on a bike I built, here is the complete thread as I worked through the options.
Time-Sert is definitely the best solution!!... If the elongated hole is still flat and when you drill the hole for the time-sert if it fully "fills" the slightly elongated top part of the hole....
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/476 23/728956.html?1388882476
(Message edited by Jolly on August 07, 2016) |
Ralph
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 12:51 pm: |
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I've never used a Timesert, just Heli-coil. Whichever method you decide to use please take it to a machinist so it will be done right. |
Johnod
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 02:42 pm: |
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Is there a significant difference? |
Norton952
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 03:00 pm: |
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I am not much of an expert on Buells, but I DO know mechanics. (Federally licensed Aerospace technician, A&P). My wife also is a production mgr at a Machine shop and has worked most every job in that shop.
(She yells at me if I use her tool box at home)
So, YES, those bolts break. There is a number of discussions on this and I would recomend anyone buy the highest quality bolts you can source for such applications.
It is such a preventable problem. As to removal, You already solved it and many discussions for those following but I have a few tricks myself. Keep in mind *IF* you are not competent to remove it yourself take it to a competent machinist. Many tricks to emove bolts like this without damaging the head but in worst case there is a machine called EDM. It zaps the steel bolt with little sparks and leaves the alloy threads intact.
As to Helicoil, and Timeserts BOTH have their uses. Its not so much one is better than the other but what is the application.
In THIS Application I would strongly recommend the TIMESERT. You can purchase a kit for installing them from vendors online and you might find a shop near you who has them on the shelf. If you are not confident to install it yourself properly then a install by a shop should be not a lot of money.
Helicoils are very useful as well and I keep them in stock for many sizes. But the TIMESERT is much stronger and has better grip and for a mount bolt that is critical.
Keep in mind when removing bolts that many applications SHOULD have loctite applied. Blue Loctite will break free over a certain torque but Red is meant to be permanent. If you suspect red loctite might have been used then heating the fastener to over 200 deg F will release the Red loctite. A small pencil torch works well. It also helps to break free a steel bolt encased in Aluminum. Be careful about warping or distorting alloy though. |
Jolly
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 06:05 pm: |
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Helicoil is like a spring coil, the time sert is a true insert.
The tools are extremely well made and the process is actually quite simple.
If you read my write up it has all the steps to follow and really walks you through the process.
I'd be happy to loan you the tools (the kit), and an insert, just pay for shipping and the cost of an insert.
Let me know, |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2016 - 10:34 pm: |
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Jolly, thank you for the offer. Those kits with the tools are pretty expensive compared to just sending it to NRHS, all things considered. So if I do go with a timesert that would be awesome.
I'm not sure I understand how the timesert actually works as it applies to drilling out the old threads, tapping new ones and then inserting the timesert. What I'm concerned about is the drilling part. I may not have looked very hard, but I can't find the specifications for how much of the head I'd have to drill out to then insert the timesert. Does anyone have that info?
Near the face of the hole has the most material taken out. If I run a bolt down the entire hole it actually snugs up really well and doesn't wobble, but I'm afraid that those missing 4 threads or so will cause an issue later on.
I'll have to keep on looking at more information on the timesert and see if I can find some good measurements then measure the head.
Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll try to take some more pictures of the hole tomorrow. |
Norton952
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 04:27 am: |
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Already covered. See: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/476 23/728956.html?1388882476
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itxflsaw-QE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXEOAw3qp6M
(I rate this tutorial A+)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaGLq70BTw8
Helicoils are just fine for many applications, Use your best judgement.
I bought the repair kit for doing exhaust stud/bolt repairs as well because it is such a common problem. I have an XB that needs that repair.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Buell-Exhaust-Stud- Drill-Plate-tool-/140910484607
and upgraded fasteners, might as well do this if you havent already.
See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harley-Polished-Grd-8-Stai nless-Harley-Exhaust-Stud-Kit/300329835314?_trksid =p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26a lgo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26me id%3D05ad66750a51447498560815832e0841%26pid%3D1000 05%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D140910484607
* Note it says does not fit buells but thats what mine LOOKED like, High tensile stainless studs, and 12 point fasteners. Search for a vendor as that is just an example. |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 01:25 pm: |
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Here's what I'm working with.
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S1owner
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 01:33 pm: |
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I think that with that sice hole it would be best to send it to Nhrs and be done with it |
Jolly
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 05:08 pm: |
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I agree, that appears to be too far gone, oversized/elongated.... I would fix that by packaging it up neatly and sending off the NRHS, with a note to Dan, then crack open a beer!
Unfortunately that's way more than shot threads.... |
Drawkward
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 06:07 pm: |
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As suspected. I wonder if I could get a package deal on two heads! Haha! |
Norton952
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2016 - 06:26 pm: |
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Nothing wrong with NRHS or other experienced vendors. At least you *KNOW* they have specific experience on this type of repair and these cyl heads.
However, It all depends on your local area and your resources.
That is NOT rocket science. Here is what *I* would do to repair it. YRMV. First you need to make a template to make sure the repaired hole is aligned properly and most of all STRAIGHT as being crooked, off center or not aligned will cause stress and fractures down the road.
Making a jog to do this is not that hard if you think about it. Look at my previous response and look at the jig/fixture for repairing exhaust stud holes. This aligns and and correctly positions the new hole and repair. That hole on your head will require opening up with a die grinder and carbide. It needs a good cleaning, then grind to preferably a 45 degree taper, and leave a 0.10" thous land on the top.Consider a preheat in a slow rise in a oven to 150 deg. F and then secure the head in a fixture with a weld blanket. Tig weld with the correct alloy rod starting at the bottom and working in a circular pattern like a danish pastry. Control heat and consider cooling the part with Nitrogen or argon gas shielding or use in a weld chamber. (oxygen free). Complete the weld with a 20 thou top bubble sitting proud, this will float out the impurities to the top of the weld bead. Normalize the head in a oven and slowly cool in stages.
Face cut it in a drill press or Mill. make sure its flat and true. Then align the hole pilot and drill undersize. Tap it OR install the Timesert. Run a tap thru to remove the residue from the Loctite after the install drys. Clean threads with brake clean and compressed air.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Not exactly in the skill sets of many backyard mechanics BUT if you have accesss to people in the machine shop or fabrication world this is a really EASY repair. I worked for years in Aerospace manufacturing and would knock out stuff like this on my breaks, If you know people, this could get done for a 12 pack. If Not, then send it to someone who does have the experience and skills. |
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