| Author | Message | ||
     Johncr250 |
In formula FX the XB`s that are running against the Jap 600`s have been bored and stroked to almost 1435cc. Thats a pretty big motor. Thats more than double the engine size of a little 600`s and the 600 will still beat the XB around a track or roadrace course. Just look at the laptimes from the season. The Buells have only cracked the top 10 a handful of times. Don`t get me wrong i love Buells for what they are, they have alot of style and are very cool to ride. But they are not in the same league performce wise as Rep. Racers, not the 1000`s, 750`s, or 600`s. Hell even the suzuki 650 SV has beaten the Buells up in the Thunder Bike series this year while only dynoing at 75rwhp. Enjoy you Buell like i do as a great streetbike but don`t think your gonna smoke rice rockets. | ||
| BadS1 |
John in qualifing Cicotto has pulled a third and they've always been in the contention.What you can't compare is factory against privateer or dealer backed rides.And they placed in the top 10 more then just a handful.A 6th being the best.Don't think for a second those FX bikes aren't built to the gills from Honda.There about to be the premier class and from the factory's the only envolvment has been Honda and Ducati as of yet. | ||
| M1combat |
The FX bikes do VERY well. Compare the FX Buells to other non factory 600's. Also, compare the amount of money put into the factory bikes as opposed to the Buells. Also, put Zemke and Duhamel on the Buells and they would still win by the same or similar margin. Also, the Buells have CONSISTENTLY placed in the top ten as I recall (I could be wrong). They certainly qualify consistently in the top ten... A couple times with race tires as opposed to qualifying tires. Don't tell me they aren't competitive... If they weren't they wouldn't be fighting for a top ten overall championship position after NOT ATTENDING THE FIRST TWO RACES... Do you understand race craft? Race craft says that if you can gain multiple positions on the first lap, it's because your vehicle is more agile than the rest or you got lucky. This has happened in EVERY race I've watched. Must be pure luck right? Right. Also (yeah, there's more), The Buell's run that 14XXcc config only at certain tracks. Some tracks they run a smaller displacement for more RPM's. Also, The 600's have twice as many pistons, FOUR times as many valves and dual overhead cams, not to mention 2X the RPMs and they are cooled by the ever so popular and over rated H2O. What's wrong with running 2X the displacement against that? Displacement is not a good judgement of an engines competitiveness. It's all about an engines power to weight ratio. The Buell engine does very well in this comparison. ESPECIALLY when torque is considered. Torque is important. As far as being built to the gills... ALL the bikes in FX are. I think the Buells have the largest room for improvement. They just need a former F1 engineer. The song remains the same though, it's 1/2 as expensive to build a Buell (including the price of the bike) as it is to build a 600 to FX standards (if that can in any conceivable way be called standard  ). Next... Buell will get into the race game soon enough. Probably right about the time they are written out of the rules of FX. I would bet they are working on another revolution of an engine . I would guess an air cooled V4, but I don't know anything. Maybe some day they'll win a motoGP race with an air cooled engine . | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
The only time a Buell hasn't made the top 10 in the FX races is when they broke or crashed out or just simply weren't there due to the late start. | ||
| BadS1 |
M1 who told you they run different motor's at different tracks???Ummm they gear different for different track's. | ||
| M1combat |
No, they run different stroke lengths. I think they work out to 1350 and 1430. I can't remember where I saw it, but I seem to remember I trusted the source . | ||
| Glitch |
what happened to my post? | ||
| BadS1 |
They do????I think I'm gonna have to talk to Terry or Jim the next time I stop in by Hal's.I've never heard that.And I really can't beleive that.What do they do if Cicotto has to go to his back up bike.Do you think they have that one set up for that track also???That would mean they have 4 engines for there bikes...I doubt it.Hal's is really a stone throw from my house and I've never heard anyone mention this up there. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
And on a tight track with a good rider a litre bike will destroy both the 600cc's & the Buells. Go big or go home  | ||
| BadS1 |
So where did that come from we aren't talk'n liter bikes.  | ||
| José_quiñones |
The formula extreme rules limit displacement for air cooled FX bikes to 1350cc's. Click here to see a summary of the current FX machinery courtesy of Road Racing World This year they are using two displacements: Both engines have a 3.8 inch stroke The 1160cc uses the stock Blast/XB9 Stroke: 3.125, and they are revving it to 8500 rpm The 1290cc uses a 3.47 inch stroke, that one revs to 7500 rpm | ||
| BadS1 |
Jose I never heard these guy's talk about it.How do they set up back up bikes???4 motors for given tracks or what??? I gotta get over there and find out the details. | ||
| M1combat |
"And on a tight track with a good rider a litre bike will destroy both the 600cc's & the Buells. " No they wouldn't Dyna... They would maybe eek out a couple seconds (as has been proven by laptimes...) but rider error can take more than that in a heartbeat. You can't use any more power than your tires allow you to... Still comes down to rider skills. Line it up and twist Dyna. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Dream on M1, on a track a couple of seconds can be huge. And I sure as hell didnt see the 600's or any Buells whipping up on the litre bikes at todays track day. Come on up sometime next year, bring wycked with you & we will do a track day or 2. | ||
| BadS1 |
Rider error???Thats called.....thats just racing!!!! | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
RoadRace I beleive did the Expose' on the FX Buells where the discussed the engine configurations. Greg I would love to come up for a trackday, I have nothing to prove at all but I still would go just to have fun with a great bunch of people And now that my bike has hit the ground, I may push it harder on the track  | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Oh and as a note...say 2 seconds a lap faster in laptimes (this is a rough guess as I don't have numbers in front of me to look at) equates out to 40 second lead at the end of 20 laps... | ||
| M1combat |
Gotcha... but that's not destruction. Greg stated that a 1000 IL4 would "destroy" a 600 or a Buell, not quite true. Close though... "Rider error???Thats called.....thats just racing!!!!" I was just making the point that riding a 1000 IL4 doesn't mean you can ride around like a ••••••• and still be faster than a Buell or IL4 600. I'd be happy to make it up there for a track day as well, and just for the record, I'm sure you would wax me. I'm not that good, I just understand racing fairly well. It's still a fact that if you ask a driver/rider what would make them faster the last thing you will hear is power (almost always). Things like driveability and handling are more important. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
To you a half a lap lead over the 2nd place bike isn't destruction, to me it is. And could be to Greg as well. | ||
| M1combat |
Well, fine, maybe I overstated that a little, but I just get a little torqued when we're having a perfectly good discussion about FX bikes and Greg comes in here from left field... Anyway... | ||
| Kaudette |
won't see a V4 aircooled - I believe someone (don't recall who) tried this in the 70's and the cylinder walls between the rear cylinders had a horrible tendency to melt away. All this debate about "mine is faster" is pretty pointless. Buell's are "not" full blown race bikes. If they were, they would be in Moto GP. Buells are wonderful street bikes, which, with major modification & investment, can get "competitive" with repli racer 600's on the track. We shouldn't blow this out of proportion - a gixxer 100 has 175 horses at the crank for a powertrain weight of about 200 lbs. A Buell will get MAX 140 for comparable weight. The Gixxer is stock, the Buell is built. Erik is astute to being able to find some of the "difference" in the rolling chassis, however you can't make up 35+ horses difference on the track with a "marginally" better (+/- 5% improvement) handling bike. Why the Buell is close with the 600 is that the power to weight is quite a bit closer. What's next, having the 600's destroke their bikes to 550 cc to compete with the class rule Buells...???!!! at some point, it just doesn't mean anything anymore. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
M1. left field sure enough, but this topic started out with a discussion on street bikes & then quickly evolved into FX racing. Tangental topic shift, ya gotta love it | ||
| Spike |
Johncr250, Please do us all a favor and go ride a new 600. They may be able to produce big numbers with professional riders in a magazine test, but they're not the dream bikes you think. I recently had a chance to ride an '03 636- the most powerful 600 on the market. Below 5k rpm the 636 makes about as much power as a Blast. This bike doesn't even start moving until about 7k rpm. At 7k rpm the bike is making about 35ft-lbs and 50hp- about as much as a GS500E. Granted, the bike does start building power rapidly at that point, but even then the bike doesn't out power an XB12 until after 10k rpm. Seriously, the lower half of the RPM range is near useless. Do you know what it's like to try to enter a corner on the street at over 10k rpm? I can tell you, it's easier said than done. On my XB12 I rarely even look at the tach when entering a corner. On the 636 I found myself struggling to keep the engine revving that high just to access the power. Speaking of revving high, you think your Buell is screaming at 4k rpm at 80mph? Try the 636, at 80mph (indicated- a whole different rant) the bike is turning up 7000 rpm. It's screaming. Also, don't forget the bike is only making about 35ft-lbs at that rpm. How's that for roll-on performance? Opening the throttle at that point merely changes the tone of the exhaust, the bike doesn't really gain any speed. Look, I'll agree that they fly in the hands of talented riders on the track, but on the street they're a disaster. Mike (Message edited by spike on October 05, 2004) | ||
| Johncr250 |
Spike I have riden a 636, and true they don`t make good power until 7000rpm, and come on strong at around 10,000rpms. But they rev to 15,000rpm`s! And make almost 110hp there, almost 25 more than a xb. And on the highway its buzzing along at 7000rpms, but you still have 7 0r 8 thousand rpms to play with! Compare that to a buell at 4000rpms on the highway, you know only have about 2500rpms until you hit the rev limiter. As far as FX racing goes, i say put the buells with the big boy literbikes, and leave the little 600`s alone. Then see how the buells do on the track. | ||
| Spike |
I have riden a 636, and true they don`t make good power until 7000rpm, and come on strong at around 10,000rpms. But they rev to 15,000rpm`s! And make almost 110hp there, almost 25 more than a xb. First things first, it's not "almost 25" more horsepower. It's almost 20 at best, and in many cases it's closer to only 10 more horsepower. Secondly, you've got to be above 10k rpm to get at that power. You've got 10k rpm worth of unusable power. Personally I'll give up ~15hp at the peak to get a usable powerband. If you're willing to give up the first 10k rpm in order to get 15 more horsepower then go buy a 600. As far as FX racing goes, i say put the buells with the big boy literbikes, and leave the little 600`s alone. Then see how the buells do on the track. Why? Why pretend that displacement is the only factor that affects power output? We're comparing air-cooled long stroke pushrod v-twins with two valves per cylinder to liquid-cooled short stroke DOHC 4-cylinders with 4 or 5 valves per cylinder. Why pretend that equal displacement would give us a level playing field? Should the current 990cc 4-stroke MotoGP bikes be forced to leave the little 500cc 2-strokes alone and go race 990cc 2-strokes? Why should FX be any different? Mike | ||
| M1combat |
"As far as FX racing goes, i say put the buells with the big boy literbikes, and leave the little 600`s alone. Then see how the buells do on the track." Why? Did you miss my post about the IL4's having four times the valves, 2X the pistons, OHC and all that? If they get all those advantages, why can't an air cooled V-twin with ONE crank journal get a displacement advantage? Displacement is NOT the be all end all of engine capability measurement. As a matter of fact... It's not even a good one. Look at the FIA GT cars. Everything from 3L V8's to 7L V10's to 5L V12's. DOHC, Pushrods, you name it... The series is VERY competitive. 110HP is not 25 more than a Buell. "As far as FX racing goes, i say put the buells with the big boy literbikes, and leave the little 600`s alone. Then see how the buells do on the track." So far, it looks like they would end up a little further away than mid pack, as would the 600's in FX. Anyway, look at forms of racing other than NASCAR where even the aerodynamic packages look the same, and then come back and tell me that running a pushrod V-Twin at NEAR 2X the displacement of an IL4 isn't fair. It is fair. IMO, It all boils down to the fact that the FX Buells beat WELL OVER half of the 600's in FX. I believe that makes them competitive. If you can't see that, I think you really need to take a step back so you can see the forest. The song remains the SAME for stock bikes. The only place the 600's have ANYTHING on the XB is straight line acceleration. If I want straight line acceleration, I'll build a Chopper. If you want straight line acceleration, go buy a 600... | ||
| Kowpow225 |
I am not joining in this argument. But I would like to make a point on this topic. Comparing a Buell to ANY other bike (other than another Buell) is foolish because we all ride these things for different reasons....and sometimes that doesn't include racing. Most people in this discussion have had valid points here and there. Let's acknowledge that. | ||
| Kowpow225 |
This is important to remember.  The 600's have twice as many pistons, FOUR times as many valves and dual overhead cams, not to mention 2X the RPMs and they are cooled by the ever so popular and over rated H2O. | ||
| R1DynaSquid |
Hp is hp, what difference would liquid cooling vs air have to do with anything? Why would a 120 hp air cooled v-twin not be competitve with a 120 hp liquid cooled inline 4? Any answers? | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Greg that is the point M1 is trying to make, you can't compare displacement equally in the different configurations but you can compare the power output. Which is why you compare the XB's to IL4/600's. I would pit an XB to say a first generation FZR1000 but I can't compare them to the new generation R1 due to the HP disparity. If you and I were on a short enough, tight enough track where it came down to your torque curve against mine, I would bet the bikes would be very close. But stretch that track out where you get out of the torque curve and into the horsepower disparity that margin of difference would give your R1 the advantage. Now mind you this is a comparison of you and I, not you and Blake(better rider then I with more tracktime) or Barnes(FX bike) and Gobert(superbike). You get the idea. If you can't balance the the track for all configurations of mechanics then you balance the playing field based on Power and bike weight. |
