| Author | Message | ||
     Biffdotorg |
There have been a number of times over the years that I have hit the starter for a quick shake of the motor and it was just enough to lose connection to the battery and the entire bike would be dead, and reset the gauges. This was an obvious issue over two Buells, that a person needs to tighten the battery posts regularly, and use star washers. Lesson learned. But once started, if the battery cables were to come undone, would the bike stall, or would the Stator be producing enough power to keep it running? The other day, I had just taken off from work, and the bike went totally dead and reset the clock. I didn't worry, I rolled to the side of the road, pulled out a screwdriver and tightened down the battery posts. Fired right up, reset my clock and I was on my way. The thought crossed my mind, that if that was the real cause, wasn't my stator producing enough power to allow the bike to run? Next morning, go to take off from home. CEL just like the ones I had when my VR took a crap. I just turned it around and put it away for the day. I have yet to pull the codes but will soon. I will also do the sniff test of the primary oil. Should I just get on American Sportbike and order up the Stator, screws and primary tool and be done with it? Thanks guys, I will be searching the stator testing processes as well to be sure before placing an order. (Message edited by biffdotorg on August 05, 2015) (Message edited by biffdotorg on August 05, 2015) | ||
| Djohnk |
I would probably do a sniff test first, takes about 2 minutes time to remove those two screws. My advice (for what its worth): install a voltage gauge of some sort, I have replaced my stator twice on my Uly and both times didn't do an electrical test because I knew the stator was starting to go bad from my voltage gauge. My Uly didn't leave me on the side of the road due to the bad stators because I was pro-active and replaced them before they that. Both times the stator was obviously fried ... blackened and smelly upon removal. | ||
| Froggy |
Stall. I've been on group rides where a XB battery literally got too weak and died in the middle of a ride on some back roads. Even with a healthy stator/VR, and not a zero volts output like no battery, it still started running like crap till it wouldn't run anymore. | ||
| Sagehawk |
ditto that froggy. I push started buewulf in the bellevile, tx police dept parking lot. bike idling fine. we headed on with ride , he headed home. coupla hours later we came back thru and he was sitting on far side of town square. that was as far as he got. thought all kinds of evil but when new battery was installed the next week, bike running ok. well, till the next time it broke down anyway. battery even checked good where he had it tested. a good battery, don't leave home without it! | ||
| Reepicheep |
The way a shunt regulator works, it won't work well without a battery in the system. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Perfect guys, thanks for the input I did give it a smell last night, and it may have a hint of burn smell to it, but nothing horrible like some say. Others have said it was real obvious burn smell. I may be to the point of pulling the primary and just giving a visual check of the stator as well. A voltage test would determine this as well I will pull the CEL codes tonight as well. I spent last night waxing and buffing the boat. Priorities | ||
| Etennuly |
A screw driver will not tighten the battery post bolts enough. I use a 10mm wrench and turn them to where I fear stripping the bolts.....even then, they still come loose every six months or so. I have a spacer washer and a star washer on them, along with accessory wire loops. I don't use thread locker because it will keep the bolts tight but it will also serve to insulate the voltage passing through the bolts. Therefore, I just re-torque them when ever I have the seat off. | ||
| Uly_man |
I would recommend that every one uses a "on bike" voltage monitor of some type. They cost very little and are a great mod for this bike. Worth every penny. As you know the area under the seat can get very hot especially without the comfort kit fan cowl. This will contribute to the battery bolts working loose due to them heating and cooling over time. Also those two big heavy + and - wires bang around with vibs and road riding making the bolts work loose as well. I use cable ties to lock them in place to the loom/ battery tray and never had any problems. A star washer would also be a good idea if needed. You could also make a "locking tab washer" for the posts which would ensure they never come loose. A loose/ dirty battery connection is NOT good and to be avoided. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
I hear ya. My roadside tool kit only had the Phillips. But I too use a small socket wrench when in my shop to crank these down. Much more torque than I can give with a screwdriver. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
So WTF, I get my new stator and gaskets and get ready to pull apart my primary. Then I read through the tools I need and find the need for a 1 3/16" socket!!! I have some big sockets, but I come to find they don't even make that animal in 1/2" drive. I don't have 3/4" drive. I did find an adapter, but then find that solo socket. Two hardware stores and sears didn't have it. Sears did actually but in a set. I may have to order it, or hit up harbor freight for that one solo socket. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Well, 5 minutes on the Sears website, I find that the other Sears has it in stock. $6 later and I will be in business tomorrow night. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Ok, so now after having done a stator replacement, I know what you guys were saying about the smell! Holy crap is that a god-awful smell. Although, I had to note that my old stator did not come out looking any worse for wear. Should there be a noticeable difference in condition? I have seen plenty of bad stators on here and almost all of them had crap in the wiring, or metal shavings. Other than being dark from probably oil, it looked fine. I do have to run the codes on my bike, a I do still have a CEL on fire up. Bike started and ran fine after assembly, but no power to my accessory outlet. This is not a good sign, and I hope I didn't just replace a good stator.   | ||
| Reepicheep |
That is an unusually good looking "bad" stator. Usually there is some blackened goey spot in the windings. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
That's what I get for not having a meter and testing the stator while installed. I will pull the code for the CEL now, and see if it is still an electrical code. It started and seem to run just fine. I was just concerned that the ECM shut down my accessory plug as if in a low-voltage situation. | ||
| Uly_man |
"I do have to run the codes on my bike, as I do still have a CEL on fire up". The CEL is a "common alarm" for many faults. That is the problem with it? You get a light and then you either have to link it to a computer, if you have one and a cable handy, or start sticking in bits of wire in the diagnostic plug, and know the code count, to find out what the fault is. NOT AT ALL clever if you ask me. I have had lots of faults and NEVER had a CEL come on. But it doeS you need to check it out ASAP. "I was just concerned that the ECM shut down my accessory plug as if in a low-voltage situation". The ECM will stop working at 11.1V but I think the socket shuts down before that on the later bikes. A good battery will hold, off the bike, 12.8 V for many months. The VR charges at 14.7 V all the time even with a fully charged battery. The bikes amp draw (load) is from the battery and not the stator. It is NOT an alternator which can increase the amps to counter higher loads using its internal electronic control system. The bikes systems run off the battery and the bike would still run without the VR and stator connected/ working. All that would happen is that the battery would go flat in the end as it was not being recharged. The ECM does not monitor the VR or stator functions only upper and lower set points in the bikes electrical system. In this case the low limit is 10v which I think, by then, your bike has stopped running. The high limit is 16V which if ignored could fry your electronics. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Yup, still a code 16 "low voltage" Can this be as simple as a bad battery? I have a new Stator, New Voltage regulator and it is throwing a code 16 after idling for 30-45 seconds. Seems to idle just fine. But it is definately a low voltage situation as the aux outlet is shut down by the ecm. It still starts and seems to run fine other than a bit of a rough idle. And that could be from sitting. I'm getting a bit frustrated now | ||
| Sagehawk |
is there a rpm that is higher than idle to make the checks at? My uly seems to drop charging at idle. Just doesn't start charging till higher rpm. Way it is. But acc plug will be active. Oil change time now and while stuff has to come off , that's when I check 77 connectors, etc. Generally spend a week and check all this types of things. Preemptive maintenance if you will. | ||
| Reepicheep |
All my Buells have maintained at least a minimal charging voltage at idle, even running heated grips. Have you put a meter across the battery Biff? Measure DC voltage with ignition on but the motor not running, then measure DC voltage with the motor running. Post the two values. If the latter is higher than the former, then the charging system is at least trying to charge the battery, so it probably *is* a bad battery. If not, there is still something up with your charging system or wiring. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
After putting the battery on the charger overnight, I started it up this morning with no CEL and a constant 12-13v while running. That seemed low in comparison. But no CEL. Here is my theory on this. My stator was on the way out when the VR failed. After changing my VR, I had a solid 650+ miles without issue. My first indication of another issue was when my battery terminal connection came loose while riding and it killed the engine dead and reset the gauges. This lead me to believe that the VR could not keep that engine running, and It probably wouldn't anyway with the cable coming undone. Then the CEL came on a week or so later with a code 16, low voltage. The sniff test indicated bad stator. My guess is for most, that CEL goes off miles from home and since the bike is still running fine, most will run it to avoid being stranded. I was less than a block from home and turned it right around. My guess is that is why most have a gooped up stator when they take it out, Mine was hardly run after it failed, but probably drained my battery plenty before the CEL, thus throwing it once it hit the lower limit. After doing the stator install, I had not charged the battery. And even thought it was running fine, the CEL still showed as the battery was drained. And since it was below the lower limit, the ECM would not light up my Aux outlet. After a night on the charger, my outlet lit the second I hit the starter. Which was odd, as it normally takes a second of running, or at least cranking before the Voltmeter in the outlet lights up. This was immediate. So, now I run it and watch for codes and leaks of course. I did replace all three gaskets on my primary. Needed or not, I had a bit of seepage after 26K miles. So it didn't hurt. I did buy the new stator screws as recommended by Al at American Sportbike. And I used Loctite on all the locations the service manual recommended. Torque specs on all nuts that were advised. I even bought that tool to lock in between the engine and the clutch basket. That is ingenious and worked well while torqueing down the nuts! I did snap the head off the pinch bolt on my shift linkage though. It's in there tight with red Loctite, so I hope I don't have to take the primary off anytime soon again. I may have to use a torch and wheel puller the next time as that pinch bolt is not going anywhere!! I did do one last thing while I had the primary open. I pulled the starter gear out and sprayed a little WD-40 in there and worked it in and out quite a few times. I do think it is moving much smoother. For those of us who have had that horrible clunk when it fails to return quick enough. I was sure to wipe up any dripping WD-40 in the primary before closing it up. Probably no need to mix that in with the Formula+ once put back together. I will give a status update in a few days if this weather allows me to put some miles on. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That sounds low allright. If you take a couple measurements (one with ignition on but bike not running, one with bike running) and record both down to the decimal point (12.1 is a lot different then 12.9 for our purposes here) we can reach some pretty good conclusions. Could just be a bad connector between the VR and Stator, or a bad battery ground. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
I checked all connectors, and no luck. I am going o have to trace the entire wiring harness and look for issues. I'm not getting power to my battery as after a few starts, the battery as dropped voltage enough now that I am getting the low voltage CEL again and the ECM shut off my aux power outlet. So I need find out why power is not getting to the battery. I hope that Stator going out didn't take my VR out as well. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
So, while tearing into this a bit, I thought I would do a few more things. I had the plastics off anyway. I did an oil change, re-seated all the VR and Stator connectors. And re-seated the fuses and relays under the seat. I also put the battery on the charger for a couple hours to be sure I eliminate that variable. Fire it up, and I see 14.1v-14.4v and put on 36 miles around town with it floating in that range the whole way! What luck. I stopped the engine to open my garage door, pull out the camera to take a pic of the voltmeter and start the engine. 12.4 and dropping. WTF!!! So I roll it in, and re-seat everything again. I did notice that I had not taken the time to zip tie the stator and VR wires back to the left hand air scoop. So any shaking of those wires could have caused an issue. I think I may need an education on Di-electric grease and it's purpose as I have not used any. I get it all zipped up, and bolted back on. Fire it up and voltage at idle was 12.4. I held it at about 2000rpm's and it climbed back up to 14 when I shut it down. I may need another test ride. At least we finally have a forecast for decent weather and I should be able to ride to work each day. The saga continues | ||
| Griffmeister |
12.4 at idle is not good unless the bike is idling at 500 rpm. The stator should put out roughly 22 VAC per 1000 rpm so even at idle the VR would be able to make charge rate of 14+ VDC at idle unless there was a serious draw on the system. The zip ties only keep the harness out of the way, the fold over clips on both the 46 and 77 connectors keep them together. Just to be sure, disconnect the stator and see what it puts out at idle. If it's over 20 VAC then you have to go back and look at the VR and wiring. Good luck. | ||
| Uly_man |
"Fire it up and voltage at idle was 12.4. I held it at about 2000rpm's and it climbed back up to 14 when I shut it down". No that is NOT right. It should be 14+ VDC at a 1050 rpm idle. It may be a 12 V battery but the bikes running at about 14.5 VDC and the battery will hold about 12.8 VDC standing and 13.8 VDC fully charged standing for around 24 hours. As said I would check the VR/ Stator and wiring/ connections. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Since writing that last post, I did check all connections and this thing is putting out 14.1-14.4 solid at idle now. It had to be the connections as that is all that I have changed. After two commutes to work, this thing is a rock holding in that range. Starts are smooth as well. My little trick with some lube on the starter has made a noticeable difference! I have to do a training at a school 40 miles away today. It's sunny and I may have to ride the bike out there. I hate not fully trusting my bike right now. I need to do this short run on a timeline so that I can trust it again. Thanks guys! | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I'm a bit late to this conversation. If you haven't run checks on your vr/r and stator as shown in these very easy to follow videos then you should. http://www.roadstercycle.com/Roadstercycle.com%20V ideos.htm When my VR/R crapped out I verified their crapped-outness by using those videos. My stator was fine but the VR/R was most definitely toast and it had taken my shorai battery with it. I bought the Mosfet style VR/R from RoadsterCycle and haven't experienced a problem since and also did my son's ULY and no more problems there either. Good luck. | ||
| Uly_man |
Nice work Biffdotorg. Also for you, and others, you can buy a set of motorcycle specific (thinner wires/ smaller clips) jump leads that come in its own bag and go under the Ulys seat easy so you can always get a jump if needed. I have a set and are very handy. I have even used them on the car in the past. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Yup, I have a set of those smaller jumper cables on my Yamaha Snowmobiles. 4-stroke electric start sleds with no pull-start as backup. So here is the deal. Yesterday, I got balsy and drove my bike to a jobsite to do some end user training. Over 100 miles round trip, and the bike ran great. 14.1-14.4 volts at the Aux outlet the entire day! I roll the bike out of the garage this morning, and it reads 12.1 at the outlet, so I know this is not going to be good. Of course after idling, the CEL comes on. I know everyone keeps talking about checking other voltages, but I am not pulling out the meter whenever I ride this. The voltage at the outlet I can only assume is reading what is at the battery. So the meter will come out later, when I am not trying to get my ass to work. But quick guess is that this is measured at the battery and of course controlled by the ECM. If I have proper voltage coming out of the VR, then that battery may have taken a crap as others had mentioned could happen with Stator and VR issues, leading to replacement. I'm really perplexed, as it ran so damn good all week on my commutes and this one trip. I hate electrical gremlins. If this is a bad ground, or short, it may take a lot of beer in the garage to find. (Message edited by biffdotorg on August 26, 2015) | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Biff, My son's bike had intermittent voltage. Sometimes good and sometimes not and that went on for some time. In his bike's case it turned out to be the stock VR/R working intermittently . Last year I installed the Mosfet from Roadstercycle on his bike and all has been perfect with his bike ever since. | ||
| Griffmeister |
OEM VR number three doing good so far (in only 24K miles I guess you would consider that a wear item?). If/when that one goes, I'm putting in a Shindegen from Roadstercycle. Everyone loves those. | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Ok, spent some quality time with the meter tonight. I took the time to put my battery on the charger last night just to eliminate a variable. It read 95% on the trusty schumacher, so It may have been just fine. Today, I rode to work and back just fine. Gauge in the Aux jack was reading 14.1 to 14.5 all day. Got home and read the battery with the engine off. 12.7v. Lit up the engine, and read it again well over 14, in fact it read almost exactly the same as the meter in my Aux port, which was cool. Shut off the engine, and she dropped back to 12.7 or so. So that leads me to believe that my charging system is doing what it is supposed to do. Now, I just need to have this meter close by to get that reading the next time it takes a crap and shuts off my meter on the dash. As that may tell me if my battery is just taken a dump. My assumption that if the battery is bad and drops below the magical voltage that shuts my Aux off and trips a CEL, I can take a meter reading at the battery. It should be low, and with the engine running, may actual show a higher voltage there again. If not, then my VR may have crapped and is varying voltage to the battery/system. If the voltage is higher with the engine running, that would lead me to still believe the charging system is working. And if the battery is low once I kill the engine,then I have narrowed my problem down to battery. Does that sound right? Now if the reading is low when the next CEL comes up while the engine is running, that could be a bad VR, or bad ground somewhere. Since it is intermittent, I would not suspect the stator, especially since it is new. Of course, the VR is new too. Come on bad batter! I want an easy fix. Of course, I would be happy with it never coming back again, but then I could never trust the bike out on the long haul again. I hate not trusting the bike. I may have to the extensive tests above on the charging system too. Thanks for the links! You guys rule!! (Message edited by biffdotorg on August 27, 2015) | ||
| Biffdotorg |
Quick follow up, well over 300 miles since the date with the meter, and this thing has been a rock. Voltage at the Aux port is consistent each and every day with daily commutes to work. Slowly, this bike will earn my trust back. I will keep making longer trips and it will come. Now that boating season is pretty well shot, weekends may revolve around bike trips before the snow flies. It was chilly each morning this week! | ||
| Uly_man |
"Today I rode to work and back just fine. Gauge in the Aux jack was reading 14.1 to 14.5 all day. Got home and read the battery with the engine off. 12.7v. Lit up the engine, and read it again well over 14, in fact it read almost exactly the same as the meter in my Aux port, which was cool. Shut off the engine, and she dropped back to 12.7 or so". The battery on this bike suffers from what I would call a "memory" effect IE A bit like a Ni-Cad battery. From my experiments a standing (off bike) charge should be about 13.5 volts for around 24 hours. A standing bike has a parasitic drain and will drain the battery. |
