| Author | Message | ||
     Xbolt12 |
Well now the ping is back! For those Fuel Impaired xb'ers such as Opto and Trenchtractor, I thought you might like to know my latest experience with ping on my xb12r. As you probably know I have posted about pinging becoming a problem on my xb since removing the intake snorkel. As many also know I have installed the new Techlusion TFI on my xb recently and the ping on acceleration went away for the most part. I absolutely love the TFI by the way and I am convinced the bike is making some very noticeable hp on top that it did not have before. I had the front end come up at speed twice today (3rd gear wound up). Anyway, Trenchtractor take note of this. I think you are right on the money about fuel (and possibly advance) being the culprit. So today I rode about 150 hard miles. For those of you who know San Diego area, I went up to Julian (4000')and down/up Banner Grade (Desert/ 100'?), rode Palomar mountain up and down hard several times (low elevation to 5000'). No significant ping all day, bike ran great (It's actually scaring me a little now if I let it wind out between turns (excessive entrance speed). So I'm on my way home and the fuel light comes on. I wasn't sure if I could make it to a major gas station, so I stopped at the Indian Reservation/Casino and bought brand x gas (one pump was labeled 92 octane and another 91). Well I get back on the road (twisties) on my way home and my bike starts with the pinging again just like I described before, just not as severe. For those of you not familiar with the US and reservations, they are essentially run as independent nations within US borders. As such they are exempt from many US laws and regulation, so it would not surprise me if the gas I got was not at the rate octane even though this is a high traffic station (but not a brand I recognized). In a nutshell, I think you guys are right on the money with your suspicions that fuel is the primary cause of your pinging problems. The only other cause I can think of would be if the AFV had changed for the higher altitude and did not get a chance to reset for low altitude. This I seriously doubt however, because I noticed no problems with going up and down in elevation on both Palomar Mountain and Banner Grade. As I side note, I scraped a peg feeler today and stood the bike up and down a little in a turn. Now I see why the race teams remove them from the pegs. God I love this bike!!!!! xbolt12 | ||
| BadS1 |
Here we go again.lol | ||
| Xbolt12 |
One ping-dingy, Two pingy-dingy, Three pingy-dingy... Helloo, is this the party to whom I am speaking?  xbolt12 | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Nuff said  | ||
| Opto |
Yes, it looks like it's the fuel, the leanness, and the aggressive spark advance. You can cure the fuel (use highest grade fuel) and the leanness (TFI), so 2 out of 3 ain't bad. | ||
| Xbolt12 |
I agree. I didn't mean to beat a dead horse, but just wanted to tell you guys that I believe you are correct. I think the xb has a lot of advance and if you get crappy gas, then the lean mixture is going to add fuel to the fire (or is that subtract)???  xbolt12 | ||
| SouthernMarine |
I've had the pinging, I picked up the fuel additive when I was at HD, added it to my tank (the fuel here in Yuma is 91/92 Octane). After adding it in, the pinging went away. | ||
| Gschuette |
I am curious guys is fuel additive a band aid fix for a problem that is more serious. Is it okay and a non issue as long as the bike is not pinging. I know the A/F ratio is lean and the black boxes help but if you don't have a box and just add additive well is that okay? | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Higher octane fuel allows you to run higher compression and more aggressive advance, even a leaner mixture. All good ways to get extra performance, but too much of any of these will result in pinging. The XB12 has all those characteristics, hi-comp, aggressive advance and lean mixture, so you need the good quality gas to go with the inherant high performance design of the motor, remember it's a tuned sportster engine. High temperatures only add to the problem. If you can't get the best gas due to regional issues, then a suitable (that's the point) octane booster can improve the octane of lower octane fuels, making them more suitable for your high performance engine. It's a band aid solution to CRAPPY FUEL, best option is to get better fuel in the first place. I try to make it clear that Aussie RON is different to US RON. US fuel is much better than our fuel. Bottom line is that Buell set the compression, advance and mixture combination to get the best performance and pass emissions in stock trim. It's a fine line. The following are the factors involved: 1. Hot climate 2. Regional area with 5h1t fuel 3. Air flow mods (air cleaner, snorkel, exhaust) 4. Pro Series Race Kit The XB12's seem to be able to handle one of these factors at a time, sometimes two. But more than two will more than likely cause pinging (in my experience). I live in a hot climate and previously only had access to fuel that wasn't good enough. Now that the fuel seems OK I am embarking on modifications. My advice is that an indervidual needs to decide if they are subject one of these factors already and if they can overcome that issue before risking the next. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
The manual shows 95ron equal to 91octane US fuel...just to throw that out there. | ||
| Ingemar |
Hey trench, Isn't it so that the compression by itself is not nessecarily the problem, but that in combination with the long stroke and lower rpms? That's what I always thought at least, since the riceburners seem to have no problem with 12:1 compression and rarely have pinging problems (never heard of it at least), even with advanced ignition curves. I don't know though. Just trying to learn something here.  | ||
| P0p0k0pf |
Quick question... Has anyone slapped an Air/Fuel ratio meter on their bike, either temporarily or permanently? It'd be interesting to hear some results... | ||
| Hogs |
P0pokopf Good Question!! I wd. love to have a unit I Could have at base to say to check that...Also a portable attached to bike maybe jumped led from where ever to check while on the ROAD.!!!!Wouldn`t that be nice.... :-)) Also, well to say to have an "ONBOARD" Computer small enough to mount and to check ALL OPerations while out on the trails... asking to much???? I`ll buy three. | ||
| Whodom |
Ingemar- ignition timing, compression, octane rating, air/fuel ratio, combustion chamber shape, cooling method, etc. all affect whether an engine pings or not. Some of the reasons rice burners can get by with higher compression are (1) water cooling (lower combustion chamber temps under adverse conditions) (2) 4 valves per cylinder (different combustion chamber shape) and (3) engines tuned for high-rpm horsepower (which means they have lower volumetric efficiency at low RPM, so cylinders aren't "filled" as well, combustion pressures are lower, less chance of ping). The combustion chamber shape on the XB is extremely refined and IMHO is as good as you can get with 2 valves and air cooling. On the thoughts about the XB's having a "lean" air/fuel ratio: Using excess fuel (and that's what it would be) to cure pinging works, but it's not the best engineering solution. Excess fuel cools the mixture via evaporation which can lower mixture temperatures enough to prevent pinging, but you're using ~$2/gallon fuel to do it with! It's not good for power or efficiency. That extra fuel won't be completely burned, and therefore goes right out the tailpipe. Granted, a little extra fuel is cheaper than engine work but I haven't yet heard of an XB engine being destroyed or even damaged from pinging. Here's a thought about pinging- if your engine NEVER pings, you have NO idea how well it's tuned. The mixture could be too rich, it could have low compression, excessively retarded timing, etc. If it occasionally pings under the worst conditions, you KNOW it is tuned within a hair's width of optimum performance. | ||
| Zx9rmal |
<<Here's a thought about pinging- if your engine NEVER pings, you have NO idea how well it's tuned. The mixture could be too rich, it could have low compression, excessively retarded timing, etc. If it occasionally pings under the worst conditions, you KNOW it is tuned within a hair's width of optimum performance.>> A generalization, but true. In fact, I ADVANCED the static timing on my 12R by a couple of degrees. Still NO pinging, and a bit better throttle response. There is obviously much variation in fuel quality around the country. | ||
| Trenchtractor |
'There is obviously much variation in fuel quality around the country.' Make that the world. PO, Opto did it, it was an LED kit he made up that read the O2 sensor output. WHO, Well said. Like I was trying to say, Buell got us right up to that fine line in stock trim, so it may only take a small nudge to get us over it and result in pinging. Hogs, a data logger would be awesome. I guess a palm that you could hook into the loom that just took readings just like Digitech does with an open reading time so you can log for an hour or two. | ||
| Rooster2168 |
" Captain, one ping and one ping only please."  | ||
| Xbolt12 |
I might make a plug-in AF meter now that I have a bunch of connectors for the 02 sensor. Might use LED's to indicate the voltage. I think Al Lighton did this already on a tuber and its in the archives on this board. xbolt12 | ||
| Opto |
Xbolt, scroll to the end of this thread http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/32777/53851.html?1083912640 It's been done before and there's a really indepth article on this type of meter in the archives, just need to search a bit. | ||
| Ingemar |
Data logging is possible with the technoresearch diagnostics thingy. I don't have one yet (on order though), so I don't know to what level logging and data triggering can be set. Would be awesome if it would allow to record rpm/tps/o2 values during a short ride. Another feature is fuel trimming...  | ||
| Trenchtractor |
Have you seen the parameters that digitech logs??IAT, O2, ET, AFV, RPM, TPS, etc... It does it all. That's what I'd be after... And bugger the short ride, you wanna be able to shove off while the bike is still cool and log everything from the warm up through to highway, tight corners and traffic... You'd run that sort of logging now while your bike is good, then if you have a problem you simply compare the new data to your know good data... I'll tell you now, one of the problems i had was a dodgy ET sensor that would put out a 50mS spike just before operating temp... Totally had the ECM confused. The only way we found that was to hook up DT and log while the bike was warming up... Even then, the way DT logs data it was like 'hey, did you see that??". | ||
| Hogs |
Hey Trenchtractor , I`ll take one of them And to have it montoiring while your on da road too cool....Thats when I say the HELL with Carbs.. | ||
| Xbolt12 |
Opto, The factory service manual explains the voltage readings for the 02. I'll post tomorrow. Just got in from travel. xbolt12 | ||
| Xbolt12 |
The factory specs for xb oxygen sensor is: 0.48 V (14.7:1 air/fuel ratio or ideal) <0.41 V indicates the engine is running lean. >0.56 V indicates the engine is running rich. So there it is! xbolt12 |
