| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
Well it is the Erik Buell Racing forum so kind of yea, it does. Bimota's challenge is tough in that they have to sell bikes before they build them. EBR is feverishly building bikes that they need to sell, so they aren't out of the proverbial woods yet. I hate to say it but suspension settings can buy you time but not more horse power. I'm hopeful as well. | ||
| Court |
So ........ We have TWO sets of rules? Both EBR and Bimota knew and agreed to the rules, they committed to a certain production level ...... It's required...... Not "nice"...."optional" or "TBD". Buell made a commitment and met that commitment. Bimota made a commitment ......... What am I missing? | ||
| 46champ |
How is it that much more difficult for Bimota to make the required number of bikes than EBR. Yes EBR Buell is dead they were wiped out in November of 2009. In some ways I think Bimota may have it easier they just buy an engine and bolt it into a roller chassis that they only had to build a small part of. Up until the great push to build enough 1190RX's to race in WSB EBR had produced what 135 or so 1190RS models and a couple dozen 1125RR's and 1190RR's over a period of 4 years. Now if we talk about name recognition I have a feeling that more people know about Bimota than EBR, especially those people with lots of disposable income. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What am I missing? Nothing. Bimota have been penalised. They didn't make the quota. EBR haven't. They made the quota. I am simply saying, the racing is diminished a tiny bit without Bimota in the mix. My point is niche companies like or similar to Bimota (tiny production volumes) perhaps should have a different production number allowance which allows them an opportunity to race. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
In some ways I think Bimota may have it easier they just buy an engine and bolt it into a roller chassis that they only had to build a small part of. This is utterly ignorant of things Bimota. They do far from just bolt an engine to a roller chassis! Oh my goodness  Rocket in England | ||
| Ljm |
Someone on here a while back predicted that the rules would be changed to allow for smaller manufacturers to get in. I can see Sean's point that it enriches the mix to have more bikes and more teams. The delicate balance will be finding the right number that doesn't allow the big manufacturers with unlimited budgets to build a short run of bikes at a loss that will be production bikes but not obtainable by smaller companies and unfortunately perhaps, dominant. Having a parade behind the leaders off in the distance is not likely to help much either. | ||
| 46champ |
That is fine to come up with a reduced production run for smaller manufactures and I agree. My point is EBR is not some huge corporation they are hardly bigger than Bimota. Bimota has not produced enough bikes to start the season and we are 3/4 the way thru. If Erik Buell's boys were still building there first 125 RX's they would have been kicked out along time ago. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
My point is EBR is not some huge corporation they are hardly bigger than Bimota. That is exactly my point, except EBR whilst still a low volume producer are considerably bigger than Bimota when it comes to production volume. I wish I had some numbers. Surely Bimota is around a hundred (if that) whilst EBR must be into a thousand bikes produced. If my thinking is right it's a big difference at these low volume scales. A company able to build 20 bikes a week is a serious production facility which one would assume has potential to grow based on customer numbers expanding. A niche market producer hand building two somewhat exotic bikes a week for a limited customer base, having a core value as a specialist builder intent on keeping volume low, thus intentionally adding rarity value, cannot be the same as a small manufacturer with intentions to expand hugely. It seems to me if my way of thinking is right, there ought to be a structure which allows intentionally tiny volume producers to race. I do agree large manufacturers should not be allowed by association or similar to exploit such for them to be able to race hand built specials through some backdoor entry. Anyway, Bimota are out. Or at least for now, and non of this is ever gonna happen. If it did, and a tiny producer were winning, the big boys would throw their toys out of the pram and go home. This is why when EBR start winning, no producer large or small will be able to do so. EBR will have come through the ranks the hard way and with production volumes enough to support their validity as a full on manufacturer of production motorcycles. Ones capable of winning WSBK races and titles pretty much in the same way as the much bigger companies. This without the need to build what would be seen as exotic specials. Bimotas problem should they ever be winners in WSBK me thinks. Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
Even though they are phenomenal machines Bimota's will always to a large extent be cobbled together. Yes they built great chassis, but all the true OEM have unique engine designs as well. They are amazing bikes but the big leagues of motorcycle making means you make/design both the motor and the cycle. EBR still has to make at least 1000 bikes by the end of the year. More over, Bimota's business plan relies greatly on pre sales. EBR may have built well over 500 machines by now but I doubt they've SOLD even half of that. Partly due to the market, mostly due to ineffective marketing. Great bikes though! I agree the racing is better with a greater diversity of marques and makes on the grid. | ||
| Classax |
Superbike - Results Free Practice 1st Session Jerez, 5-6-7 September 2014 102/10 No. Rider Nat Team Bike Gap Rel. Laps Avg Speed Time Max 1 33 M. MELANDRI ITA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'42.768 16 154,939 276,2 2 1 T. SYKES GBR Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'42.813 0.045 0.045 18 154,871 273,4 3 7 C. DAVIES GBR Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'42.916 0.148 0.103 8 154,716 273,4 4 24 T. ELIAS ESP Red Devils Roma Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'43.136 0.368 0.220 17 154,386 274,1 5 76 L. BAZ FRA Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R 1'43.171 0.403 0.035 19 154,334 268,0 6 50 S. GUINTOLI FRA Aprilia Racing Team Aprilia RSV4 Factory 1'43.174 0.406 0.003 15 154,330 274,8 7 34 D. GIUGLIANO ITA Ducati Superbike Team Ducati 1199 Panigale R 1'43.192 0.424 0.018 13 154,303 269,3 8 58 E. LAVERTY IRL Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'43.399 0.631 0.207 16 153,994 270,0 9 65 J. REA GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'43.443 0.675 0.044 12 153,928 274,1 10 91 L. HASLAM GBR PATA Honda World Superbike Honda CBR1000RR 1'43.644 0.876 0.201 13 153,630 270,7 11 22 A. LOWES GBR Voltcom Crescent Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R1000 1'43.718 0.950 0.074 14 153,520 271,3 12 52 S. BARRIER FRA BMW Motorrad Italia SBK BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'44.343 1.575 0.625 14 152,601 262,2 13 44 D. SALOM ESP Kawasaki Racing Team Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'44.363 1.595 0.020 13 152,571 265,4 14 59 N. CANEPA ITA Althea Racing Ducati 1199 Panigale R EVO 1'44.389 1.621 0.026 17 152,533 263,5 15 21 A. ANDREOZZI ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'44.473 1.705 0.084 14 152,411 261,6 16 32 S. MORAIS RSA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'44.813 2.045 0.340 14 151,916 261,6 17 71 C. CORTI ITA MV Agusta Reparto Corse MV Agusta F4 RR 1'45.240 2.472 0.427 14 151,300 262,2 18 11 J. GUARNONI FRA MRS Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'45.348 2.580 0.108 14 151,145 261,0 19 67 B. STARING AUS IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'45.518 2.750 0.170 17 150,901 256,1 20 99 G. MAY USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'46.625 3.857 1.107 18 149,335 254,9 21 10 I. TOTH HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR 1'46.679 3.911 0.054 14 149,259 268,7 22 23 L. SCASSA ITA Team Pedercini Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'47.525 4.757 0.846 17 148,085 255,5 23 16 G. RIZMAYER HUN BMW Team Toth BMW S1000 RR EVO 1'47.637 4.869 0.112 6 147,931 256,7 24 20 A. YATES USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'48.676 5.908 1.039 15 146,516 253,1 The EBR's are still the two slowest machines on the track in terms of top speeds, Interestingly both May and Yates are at least a second quicker than the cut off in first practice. That's new, its only the second race this year they weren't DNQ or sitting right on the bubble in the first practice. Hmmm. Could we see an EBR in SUPERPOLE!!! | ||
| Neutrum |
doesn't matter anyway: may will start from the pits... | ||
| Hughlysses |
doesn't matter anyway: may will start from the pits... He shouldn't have to, unless he used up another engine at Laguna Seca. | ||
| Classax |
They use an engine at Laguna? No matter, he's 21st now .648 of sec from superpole. (Message edited by Classax on September 05, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Results from today's races: Race 1, Geoff finished 17th. Aaron DNF due to crash on lap 4. He was OK and bike was repaired for race 2. Race 1 full results: http://resources.worldsbk.com/files/results/2014/E SP2/SBK/001/CLA/Results.pdf Race 2, Aaron finished 16th. Geoff DNF; dropped out after lap 10. I haven't seen the reason stated. Aaron was in 15th until very near the end. Race 2 full results: http://resources.worldsbk.com/files/results/2014/E SP2/SBK/002/CLA/Results.pdf | ||
| Buellmojo |
I wonder what the Italians did wrong this time? | ||
| Neutrum |
this bike isn't competitive, even at superstock1000 level. it's not the italian's fault. and not aaron or geoff. it's the decision to take this bike to wsbk. (Message edited by Neutrum on September 08, 2014) | ||
| Classax |
this bike isn't competitive, even at superstock1000 level. They didn't run it in that class so we don't know that. Corey West is running is BSB mid pack and you can throw a 2 second blanket over the entire BSB field. They run almost identical rules to super stock 1000. The EBR decimated the  in their Superbike class with a bone stock machine 2 seconds slower than the WSBKs around that track. ( given the rider would have done the same on anything but a Grom but still) I have seen cases where suspension made the difference of 3 seconds a lap but never 5 or 6, So if we want to split hares somone needs to figure out why the factory EVO bikes are all 7+ seconds faster on Ohlins suspension than the Superstock 1000s. Someone needs to explain why they are also trapping at speeds 25-40kph faster as well. As far as this weekends performance, it was no less disappointing that the rest of the season, but in my mind fighting for a points and trying to crack superpole should have been where they where in round two. So I guess a least they are headed in the right direction. | ||
| Neutrum |
"They didn't run it in that class so we don't know that." look at the results (times) and you know it. wrong bike, wrong class... | ||
| Buellmojo |
Neutrum, my comment on the Italians was meant as sarcasm. The 1125R was defended with many excuses too...when it had problems on the street, "what do you expect, it is a race bike", on the track "what do you expect, it is a street bike"...the same mentality seems to have carried over to the EBR models, not just on this forum either. Good entertainment, and the anger presented to the rational non sheeple ones is a bonus! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Buellmojo, are you seriously claiming that there aren't credible concerns regarding the Italian WSBK execution this season? | ||
| Buellmojo |
How could I claim that, I am not there, nor do I have access to inside information? The team is not solely made up of Italians...furthermore, who chose them, why, and why are they still there, if they are so horrible at what they do? How do you know who to point fingers at? Have you ever considered, for just one minute, that they very well might be making the best of what they have available (motorcycle, parts, riders, data, etc. etc.)? Believe what you want, I will, while open minded, do the same. | ||
| Classax |
I think that everyone involved is doing the best they can with what they've got. Its a new bike, that takes a radical approach to nearly everything. The geometry makes for a machine that is very sensitive to suspension changes and the engine design may well no longer be suitable for making the kind of power it takes to RACE at this level. My take is as long as they are quick enough to make the grid, let them race and let the positions fall where they May. Gather your data, fix what you can work around what you can't. That's pretty much how race development goes. | ||
| Court |
Bingo ! The first year I competed as a gymnast . . I got my ass kicked on a weekly basis. Several years later, scholarship in hand, I was the one kicking ass. Time and tide . . . . combined with a RELENTLESS spirit. | ||
| Reepicheep |
BuellMojo, you made the sarcastic declaration:
Meaning you think we are unfairly blaming failures on the Italian team. I was asking if you seriously didn't believe there were problems with the Italian team? Nobody is seriously saying they should be winning, but that doesn't mean there isn't room to say they screwed some things up either. For example the early engine builds and extra oil, because "that's how Ducati's do it". Or the failure to listen to factory suspension configuration as demonstrated by the Laguna Seca race. Mistakes are mistakes and this was always going to be a learning year. But refusing to listen and refusing to ask questions are types of mistakes I'll call people on the carpet for. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Did anyone notice that PJ got a 2nd in WSS?. That kid is going places. That was the best race all weekend. | ||
| Buellmojo |
Reepicheep, So you feel the need to call people out for rumors, or were you actually there to witness these mistakes (excuses?) yourself? I am not saying these things did not happen, but I am also not going to point fingers in one direction without actual facts/evidence either. What exactly was demonstrated during the Laguna Seca round that was not demonstrated in the previous rounds, or the last round for that matter, Pegram Racing? The Laguna Seca race was not placed on the schedule at the last minute... the proper suspension parts not being there, how does that happen? | ||
| Ljm |
I heard the same thing Bill did at Laguna. And some other things of a similar but perhaps even stupider nature. It will be interesting to see what happens next year with this team or if there will be one. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I have an opinion based on the information I have, some of which was rumor, some of which is objective. I didn't and don't expect the WSBK team to do anything but keep trying week to week. This is a learning year and a hail mary pass, a BHAG, and I think that is fantastic. But I can't, at this point, bring myself to mock people that believe the Italian WSBK team didn't make some significant mistakes. I was trying to keep my mouth shut until I saw that, but then felt compelled to chime in. It's a professional sports team, and I'm a fan. Of course I have an opinion and I'll share it. Rooting for the Splitlath Redmond team was the real eye opener for me. Those guys seem to be putting together a fantastic program. It seemed to be quite the contrast. | ||
| Classax |
The Italians were hired for their experience in WSBK. You can't blame them for wanting to stand by what they have experienced works even it later proved to be wrong for this bike. To that mix you add an underpowered, radical geometry machine, with radical braking, new electronics, and unique engine build requirements, with riders who were on the tracks for the first time, and you have a recipe for failure. Now under bake it with a rushed, underfunded PR program masquerading as a race team and it’s a shock they keep making the grid. WHAT?! Did any of us expect that they would run with the aliens at the front? ALL the bikes in the top 10 are 4 year old mature designs, even the 1199 has more than two years worth of development into it. For better or worse the 1190RX is exactly the machine Buell would have built in 2011, not the development of that machine up through 2014. It is engineered to work mechanically in a world that has gone digital. (I personally like a mostly analog bike, but that’s just me). Good as they are, May and Yate have nowhere near the pace of a Sykes or Guintoli. That's no knock on them, that's just how FREAKISH the guys at the front are. Coming into the fray in a year in which engine uses is monitored and penalized doesn’t help matters much either. It may sound like I'm making excuses, but I'm not. Reality is harsh at times and the reality is, the bike good as it is, may be out of its league for WSBK racing, but then again the goal isn't to build a $250K WSBK, it is to race a $20K superbike with a few add ‘ons in WSBK. In that they have succeeded, despite themselves. There have been a lot of, we'll call them rookie mistakes to be kind or bonehead missteps if not, for the Hero/EBR team this year that I would not ever have predicted, but disappointingly they happened. If they are back next year, I would expect a much better run program than the, late or missing parts, missed testing, incorrectly built engines, miss tuned ECU's, incorrect suspension settings and rider learning curves we saw this year. This year was horrid! Who's to blame for that? Everyone? It was also landmark for Hero, EBR and WSBK who's to blame for that? The very same everyones! You take the bad with the good and distill it until you have your best. Distilling is a delicate process that takes time to perfect and even more time to deliver. So you have to keep racing. (Message edited by Classax on September 10, 2014) | ||
| Neutrum |
"it is to race a $20K superbike with a few add ‘ons in WSBK. In that they have succeeded, despite themselves. " dream on... the few add 'ons adds a lot more to this bike...no way you could buy this bike for under 50k or even more. come on, you'll find an excuse for everything. facts are facts, they couldn't even compete at superstock1000 levels (in every race this year) and wouldn't be in front of the superstock600. these are the facts. facts! and these facts are not helpful to sell this bike. wishful thinking. |
