| Author | Message | ||
     Xbimmer |
You may or may not be aware of the issue with some Factory replacement 38A 3-phase stators (part #29971-02YA which supersedes #29971-02Y for 03-07 Buell XB's). Apparently there can be clearance issues between the drive gear mounting boltheads in the rotor and the forked keeper/rivet on the stator resulting in stator damage and failure. My 2nd stator recently burned up with 70K on it so I'm not too upset about it, glad of my Kuryakyn battery meter to have warned me of the condition first. While searching BadWeb for info past couple of weeks I came across Al Lighton's warning about this. I had talked with him a couple weeks ago and he advised me of the issue then, when I bought the stator he emailed me the warning with pics, and their invoice also includes a warning. Exceptional customer service from American Sport Bike. What pisses me off is that Harley keeps selling these things, my factory sealed carton included NO warning about the issue. I compared the old with new and here are the results for all to see. Sorry if this stuff has been posted elsewhere. Old and New:  You can see a difference in the keeper and its rivet, the rivet is flush mounted to the keeper instead of recessed, and there is more material in the new keeper besides being thicker itself. Better angle, Old vs New, the rivet protrusion is more evident here:  Measurements of stacks rivet/keeper/chassis, Old vs New:   The new assembly is considerably thicker in section than my old one. Now I don't know whether this translates to possible clearance issues and potential failure in my bike. What I do know is they went from potted wires to a shallow rivet/keeper in my #2 stator which worked for 70K, to a bulkier POS which may screw up somebody's bike. I easily removed the old keeper and I'll be installing it on the new stator, I suspect the dimensions will be in the safe zone. My thanks to Al and anybody else who posted this stuff as a heads up. Harley Davidson sucks for selling this crap to the unknowing... (Message edited by xbimmer on September 12, 2014) | ||
| Teeps |
I'm confused. I do not see any witness marks on the old stator rivet. Did the stator (on the left) fail from something other than the rivet related clearance problem? | ||
| Rapuckett55 |
I totally agree with you. I just purchased my bike on June 27th. The previous owner replaced the stator (and VRR), but didn't realize there was a clearance issue. I can't fault him. Although, he bought it from Al and I'm betting he had an email to notify him of the clearance issue. He also gave me all the invoices and it's clearly marked on it to check the clearance. Anyway, long story short, I had to replace it again on August 2nd. Only made it about 250 miles. I was able to put the stator on with 2 screws and pushed the rotor on. Then turned it a little. Found scratches from the bolt heads and pulled it off. I removed the keeper and smothered that area with epoxy and was very pleased how it turned out. No problems so far. About 2k miles on it now. Ralph | ||
| Rapuckett55 |
Teeps - Mr. Bimmer has another thread that shows pics of his burned out stator. The new Stators provided by Harley are at fault. If you buy thru Al, he warns you of the problem. If you buy thru Harley, you'll have to replace it again in just a few miles. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/746948.html?1410444211 | ||
| Teeps |
Yeah, I saw that after posting here. But, in either photo above I didn't see a interference problem. Now, I understand from your first post, that there are bolt heads on the inside of the rotor that can contact the wire stay and/or wound wires on the stator. Which would eventually cause the windings to short together. I should have consulted my parts manual.... | ||
| Uly_man |
Nice work Xbimmer. | ||
| Conchop |
This is an unacceptable quality issue - Does anyone sell a stator that WORKS ??? | ||
| Xbimmer |
Al Lighton's post on this issue: http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/69 5806.html?1350955564 He also suggested using epoxy, told me JB Weld would work well. I'm still considering that route in case swapping in the old keeper/rivet looks questionable. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I've checked very recently, and HD has yet to even release a Service Bulletin on this particular issue, let alone fix the problem. Folks there ARE aware of it, I've made sure of that, but there hasn't been any follow through. So an uninformed dealer tech would likely just put the revA part in it and there would be another failure less than 100 miles later. Usually MUCH less. I was surprised to see Deans picture above of a stator with a keeper that wasn't too tall. The earlier stators had no keeper at all, the wires were staked down by some type of epoxy. I wasn't aware of an interim stator that had a working keeper. The rev letters don't support it, there should have been a rev A and then a rev B version in that case. And there of course should be a rev C that fixes the damned problem. But the current one with the issue is just a rev A. But it does explain why I'd heard of some folks that had a rev A stator that didn't have the clearance problem. I guess the earlier rev A stators with the keeper were like the one that Dean just removed from his bike. I haven't seen one like that. (Message edited by al_lighton on September 12, 2014) | ||
| Teeps |
Did the sprocket bolt contact problem cause Xbimmer's Ulysses stator to fail? Or, is the sprocket bolt problem, a problem waiting to happen. When the unadvised installs a replacement part? Further, if the original part didn't have the riveted plastic wire stay, why was it added? Can, or should, the plastic stay be removed in favor of potting the wires with epoxy? | ||
| Al_lighton |
I doubt that the interference issue caused his failure, because the one he had in there doesn't have the interference. But yea, install one of the new ones without doing the clearance check and this is what you get:    | ||
| Rapuckett55 |
Someone must have caught that one early. Mine had maybe 250 miles on it when I discovered the problem. I found pieces of the windings and plastic in the bottom of the case and stuck all around the magnets. The heads of the bolts were fine, but showed the signs of creating the damage. Sorry, I didn't take any pics. | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
that's all pretty ugly. please clarify is this for 03-07 only and I'm fine with a 2009? if I did need replacement is it a different part entirely? | ||
| Ourdee |
and I'm fine with a 2009? Your 09 is a single phase not a 3 phase. In 08 they switched the part to single phase. | ||
| Fotoguzzi |
Thx good to know.. I'm taking vacation next week and plan to add lots of miles to my odo.  | ||
| Ourdee |
That's right, You have the Bluell. | ||
| Motorfish |
It looks like Uly_dude is running an Accel 152111. The plug must be modified, which may void the lifetime warranty, but its 38 amp, 3 phase. I think the stock stator is 38 amp. If you splice the old plug onto the new stator, will heat shrink hold up to the primary oil, and heat? It looks like some have had the stock stator rewound, at http://www.customrewind.com/ http://accel-motorcycle.com/motorcylce-and-atv/sta tor-and-rotors/stator-38a-3phs-rpl-30017-01.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/727425.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/635365.html (Message edited by motorfish on September 12, 2014) | ||
| Teeps |
Al_lighton Posted on Friday, September 12, 2014 - I doubt that the interference issue caused his failure, because the one he had in there doesn't have the interference. Understood. What is amazing is the evolution of the stator from potted wires without a stay, to a "properly designed & installed" wire stay, to a wire stay that is, for lack of better term, out of spec. which causes a catastrophic failure when used. I'll bet Harley won't do a parts warranty on one of those defective stator either... I wonder if a truss head sprocket bolt would offer more clearance? | ||
| Xbimmer |
Well crap, here's a frustrating development. I decided to JB Weld the wires instead of using the keepers, I positioned the stator to drive out the pin and noticed this:  Looking closely you can see 2 of the 3 wire junctions have separated/cut strands at the crimps. I'm not confident that the remaining attached strands would be optimal for transmitting stator output, am I right? I suppose I could try soldering the connections since I'm planning on voiding the warranty anyway, but geez HD, REALLY? I was glad to see "Made in USA" on the box but about now I'd rather see something else to explain this piss-poor QC.  | ||
| Teeps |
Cut strands are never good. Take it back now before you can't. | ||
| Al_lighton |
It depends...sometimes, the wire is sized for voltage drop across the transmission distance, but the area of the stranding is too large for the crimp lug. In such cases, it isn't unheard of for some strands to be left out of the crimp. You wouldn't see such a thing in a mil spec harness, but it's hardly unheard of in commercial wiring. I looked at two new ones here and the joint wasn't visible enough to tell if they were similarly done (too recessed into the outer sleeve to see). So I can't say if normal ones have a few strands omitted from the crimp lug. I have a request into our stocking dealer to see if they have any there they can look at. If the crimp lug looks "full" with normal strands, I don't think I'd be too worried about it. But if I was doing the epoxy potting thing, I'd certainly encase that entire joint in potting. We just got a warranty on a stator that had the too tall rivet failure thing. In fact, two of those photos I posted above were from that customer. HD sent out a warranty stator, and it looked like this:    So I don't know if this was a pre-rev A one that they had around, or if someone there pulled a rev A and did the potting rework on it, or if there is a rev B imminently in work to be released. But if I had a Rev A stator, I'd be removing the wire stay and potting it like that. Al | ||
| Xbimmer |
What is that snotlike material Al, is it solid like JB Weld or more like silicone sealer? You would think they would have globbed it up with the wires oriented more in the direction they're supposed to go to reduce the bend there, IMO. So you think my stator will be OK if I position the wires better and seal them in with JB? The center one has 3 separated strands and the 3rd has 5 or 6, not sure and I don't want to flex it. No issues you think? My new stator also has the part# and date etched into it, what about your goopy warranty one? | ||
| Teeps |
I would prefer all wire strands solidly crimped and potted with a material that would minimize the chance of fatigue failure at the crimp, due to vibration. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Given the gauge of the conductor in the stator is so much smaller than the gauge of the wire with the sloppy crimp, I doubt it's a problem. Solid can carry a bit more DC current than stranded, but they are within 5%. I'd guess that stranded wire is at least 2x the size of the stator winding. So like Al says, it's about the distance. Your only issue is mechanical, so potting is your challenge. I've seen rigid JBWeld like stuff used, but I'd be tempted to use silicone so I could redo it if I screw something up. I don't know which would be more durable. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I sent Dean's picture and the link to this thread to my stocking dealer. He said that the two that he had there were fully crimped, no loose strands and that he could warranty it. I'll email you Dean. Al | ||
| Xbimmer |
Thanks Al!!!   | ||
| Xbimmer |
Well Al and American Sport Bike came through, sent me a new replacement stator. Thanks again Al! This new one is fine, the splices are neat and complete. I took a quick measurement across the width of this one and it split the difference between the two examples above at .833 inch. Keeper was the same thicker style as above. I knocked out the pin and keeper and potted the wires with JB Weld. I'll post some pics this w/e when we get back from a son's graduation in AZ. | ||
| Kls |
Adding to this thread because the issue's still there on new stators, and this kind of info was invaluable in helping me to correct the interference problem. XBimmer:...I positioned the stator to drive out the pin... Doh! I had struggled for hours with how to remove the keeper, practicing with various Dremel bits on the old one. Reading that line made the solution unexpectedly easy. My stators looked just like those in the first post above: the old one with a thin keeper, the new one from American Sport Bike with the thick keeper. (New keeper measured 0.794” min, 0.898" max.) The Uly's an '06 but the engine had been replaced in 2008 so maybe it had an updated version. Paranoid about damaging the stator wires, I cut a section of 2x4 to hold it up while I drove out the pin from the back side. It fit almost perfectly and a few strokes with the chisel rounded off the corners for even less interference.  A few careful taps with the punch knocked out the pin.  That little blob on the lower left is a spot of glue that had held the keeper in place. Anybody want the keeper?  If you look closely at that photo, you’ll see two tiny notches in the curved cutout for the rivet. Those appeared when I did a test fitting and the rotor bolts collided with the keeper. To hold the leads in place I used clear epoxy rather than JB Weld. The metallic content of JB Weld may not be an issue but it was easy enough to use a non-metallic epoxy.   The worst part was that I used a slow-setting epoxy so I’d have time to work it into the nooks and crannies…and then spent 20 minutes rotating the damn stator so the epoxy wouldn’t all run out in one direction. | ||
| Kls |
New update: As of late 2016 there's a supplier for these stators that is not HD and do not require modifications: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=3842&post=2563208#POST2563208 |
