| Author | Message | ||
     Deanh8 |
           | ||
| Wymaen |
Damn, is that a non-thumb thumb brake on Pegram's bike? Color me impressed. | ||
| Jrad012x |
What are the two extra levers on each side of Pegram's handlebar? -Jason | ||
| Rodrob |
The lever is a Dion device which is a brake lever guard. BUT... I am now REALLY curious about this bike. Those are not RS radiators, at least not stock. RS radiators do not have a cap. That is definitely an AIM RS dash, so one would assume that there are RS ECMs. It uses two, one for the dash. And that is a Suter slipper clutch, like the RS. I assume that one can change the clutch in WSBK? Not that anything is wrong, I'm just curious. | ||
| Riohondohank |
That is definitely an AIM RS dash, I don't think so.  | ||
| Jrad012x |
I figured it was a guard on the throttle side since the outer lever was curved in the opposite direction as the brake. On the clutch side, the larger lever is curved in the proper direction as if you were to pull it. It also has a tube leading out of its base as does the silver, smaller lever (which I assume is the clutch). -Jason | ||
| Jens |
Wyman, yes really interesting. Hard to see how to integrate that ergonomical into the ride but I cant guess what else it can be as the rear brake. Deanh8 thanks for the pics (Message edited by Jens on July 16, 2014) | ||
| Gregtonn |
"You think the EBR factory bikes with trained riders and all the WSBK Suspension stuff, CNC brakecaliper and fancy electronics are inferior to an AMA bike..." Jens, I'll post this again in case you missed it the first few times. In the interview Erik clearly states that the "fancy electronics" do not work as well as the EBR electronics. http://speedcitypodcast.com/speedcast-84-eirk-buel l/ Listen carefully starting about 5:35. G | ||
| Trojan |
In the interview Erik clearly states that the "fancy electronics" do not work as well as the EBR electronics. Then why not use the EBR electronics is WSB? Ther eis nothing forcing the team to use Magnetti Marelli equipment is there. 80% of the field use this hardware with no problems though (the rest use their own electronics or some provided by other third party suppliers). | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ It seems they haven't yet figured out how to set the MM electronics up for the 1190RX and they are choosing to continue to use them anyway until they do. | ||
| Jens |
Gregtonn, I got the message and it´s another Illustration of the general problem. Team EBR want it all at the same time. Thats not the way to develop a racebike. You race what you know what works. You develop with an development Team or at the factory and if a part/technology/set-up looks promising, the Raceteam try it in the first practice and make a decision about it. Each at its time. Like Matt said, why using nice to have Equipment when i already dont know how to use/operate/integrate that. What I would do, homologate a new swingarm that I can go back to the very well proven base geometry of the bike. Because thats the base to get the 1190 to perform as it in real can. After that I can add one of the Gadgets after the other. When all the "mechanical" stuff is ok, I can start to work with a new EMS, because most data akquisition I had done to that point is anyhow useless. You can shorten the usual 3 years to set up an advanced System like the MM by running a good Testteam. On the fly, in the limited tracktime of the WSBK it is not possible to develop that bike. Never. | ||
| Trojan |
I agree 100% with Jens. You need to develop a WSb bike before you get to the track rather than trying to do it in the very limited track time available during competition. However, ff you are going to try and develop a bike in competition then you really need to eliminate as many variables as possible to concentrate your development. This means that you need to use riders familair with the circuits, use brakes that you know are up to WSB standards straight away and use electronics that you know will work. trying to learn circuits at the same time as developing multiple parts is just an impossible task. Add that to the avowed aim of doing it at a bargain basement cost and it is a recipe for failure unfortunately. WSB racing is very expensive, and trying to do it with a new bike at a fraction of the budget other teams have is a laudible goal but not really realistic unfortunately. | ||
| Jens |
AMEN! ....except that part with the brake. But only because I am a ZTL believer  | ||
| Classax |
I'll second with exception that they are committed to developing the ZTL system as well as the "fancy" ECU so the experiments will continue. I think WSBK, at least the coverage I saw, did a good job of explaining the situation and soothing any doubts about the quality of the road bikes. | ||
| Trojan |
Im not saying that the ZTL brake won't be able to work in WSb, only that it is just another variable that they could take out of the performance equation until the engine is performing to the same level as the rest of the field. Once the bike is semi competitive then re-intorduce the brakes to see if there is an advanatge to be had or not. | ||
| M2typhoon |
Erik scoffed at the price of those brakes Brembos in his interview. Not likely going to happen. | ||
| Trojan |
Erik scoffed at the price of those brakes Brembos in his interview. I'm sure there is an old saying that 'if you want to dance you have to pay the piper'. Scoffing at the price is one thing, but Brembo are expensive because they are the best and I'm sure it is no coincidence that every MotoGP team except one use Brembo brakes (Gresini were contracted to Nissin although I believe even they have changed to Brembo now?). Racing is a conservative business, and the top teams tend to stick with what wins rather then risk unproven new technology. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"Racing is a conservative business, and the top teams tend to stick with what wins rather then risk unproven new technology." I disagree to an extent. In racing, it's all about who's the best and to be the best you must be better than everyone else. If you use the same thing as everyone else, how is the sport of racing supposed to advance? Using the Brembos would make that part of the bike equal with everyone else but that would stop development of the ZTL. | ||
| Jscott |
Are WSBK spec Brembos more costly than the custom EBR WSBK CNC ZTL? Doubtful… There is more to it than cost. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"Are WSBK spec Brembos more costly than the custom EBR WSBK CNC ZTL? Doubtful… There is more to it than cost." Those Brembos cost upwards of 10k. There is no way that a CNC'd ZTL caliper is 10k. | ||
| Jscott |
^'m sure they didn't pull that design right off Google Sketchup… you have to factor in cost of design as well as a multitude of other factors. EBR has a vested interest in improving their brake system for racing or else they would take the easy route. 10K is the easy route. Not saying either choice is right or wrong, but it's doubtful that this components thumbs up/down decision is driven by cost. (Message edited by Jscott on July 16, 2014) (Message edited by Jscott on July 16, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
In racing, it's all about who's the best and to be the best you must be better than everyone else. If you use the same thing as everyone else, how is the sport of racing supposed to advance?Using the Brembos would make that part of the bike equal with everyone else but that would stop development of the ZTL. Very true except....there is at the moment no evidecne that the ZTL is actually better than the Brembo setup. If tiwas then a lot more people would be clamouring to use it. To be the best you have to use the best available, and at themoment no braking system has shown that it is better than the Brembo used in WSB/MotoGP. There are loads of theoretical advantages to hub centre steering too, but nobody uses it because it has not proved any better than what they use now in competition. When it does youc an be sure all the leaders will be using it. All brake systems used in WSB are price capped now, so should in theory cost around the same. I woudl think that item for item the WSb spec ZTL is proabbaly more expensive than a set of off the shelf Brembos. However EBR have made the ZTL brake their 'signature' piece so even if it is proved to be less efficient than Brembos I doubt they would change it now. | ||
| Classax |
Again it comes back to objectives; At all levels racing has primary objectives: Some teams are racing to win. That is the objective fulls stop. Anything less and someone or ones is going to loose their job(s). Some teams are racing to develop, be it equipment, teams, or riders/drivers with hopes of wining. Winning in this case is not necessarily the objective but a measure of progress being made or not in development. Some teams are racing to get publicity for a rider/driver, manufacture or sponsor and while wining is the BEST way to get it, being on the track and meeting fans and representing the sponsor is equally important. Some teams are racing for the just to be racing period. Wining is always nice but win or loose they'd still be out there. Now whether its because racing is their daily business and the team must race in order to meet sponsor obligations and pay the bills or its some privateer out there who loves the thrill. There will always be racers who are on the track who know when they pull in the gate they have ZERO chance to WIN but are going to race anyway, some because they have to others because they feel they need to.(that's what they tell the spouses anyway) I suspect most non top 5 or 10 teams in any motor sports are some combination of the latter three. EBR is in the unfortunate position of having to develop an engine, electronics package, braking system, support team and riders all at the same time while doing it on a very small budget. Doesn't take a mentalist to tell you that's a recipe for ugly. I scoff at the fact that MFG's often advertise in a way could lead one to believe that the Brembos on that CBR1KSP at the dealer are the same ones on PATA machine, when in reality the ones on the race bike cost more than an entire PAIR of streetbikes. The brakes on that RX at the dealer is the exact same parts used to score a point in WSBK last weekend at Laguna. No other OEM can claim that. Is it perfect no, is it better than the dual M4108s or GP4RRs everyone esle is using? Remains to be seen, what we know is current pad materials aren't lasting race distance, but lets say for the moment they are not. The ZTL2 is still far better than the m34's or m50's on your DucatondaKawiSuzkiumph that gets tosses befor heading to the track. So its worth a shot to continue developing them. Its going to take a lot of time and money to get the EBR sorted enough to contend for the podiums. The less money you have the more time it will take. | ||
| Hughlysses |
However EBR have made the ZTL brake their 'signature' piece so even if it is proved to be less efficient than Brembos I doubt they would change it now. Erik speaks at length about their brakes in the audio interview. He admits it the unsprung weight reduction with ZTL is less of an advantage in WSBK due to the glassy-smooth tracks. However, he says ZTL does still provide an advantage in making it easier to change directions at speed. Erik doesn't close the door to going another route at some point if that's what it takes to be successful in WSBK, but he says he really wants to see if his braking system can be made to work at that level before he goes another route. | ||
| Diabuell |
^^^^^^^ I would say that pretty much closes this discussion on what EBR are going to do about their braking in the near future no matter what we want to speculate. | ||
| Rodrob |
That is definitely an AIM RS dash, I don't think so. I stand corrected. The AIM looks very similar.  | ||
| Gregtonn |
At this point EBR using WSBK "proven" parts does not eliminate variables it just adds more. i.e.: If EBR used Brembo brakes they would have to use different wheels, calipers, master cylinder,suspension setup and on and on. This adds many more variables and eliminates none. This is beginning to feel like trying to explain calculus to a room full of Red Bull chugging preschoolers. G | ||
| Jens |
With all respect, i would say a standard WSBK front end setup with Marchesini, Brembo and Öhlins components is no rocket science. There are very well proven packages what let you go to the fine setup within hours. Again i believe in the ZTL, but the truth is the truth... | ||
| Classax |
With all respect, i would say a standard WSBK front end setup with Marchesini, Brembo and Öhlins components is no rocket science. There are very well proven packages what let you go to the fine setup within hours. Again i believe in the ZTL, but the truth is the truth... You can't fault the guy for wanting to make his design the best it can be. I never thought fuel in the frame would make a huge difference in feel or handling but it does. Now riding conventional designs see a bit odd despite the fact that many move the fuel under the seat now. The ZTL2 actually works very well on the street. Its all good in my opinion. I wish there was even more diversity in WSBK, I would have loved to see what the HP2 could have been developed into. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Listening to the interview I was under the impression Erik is content with how things are being done. Almost as if it were any harder Erik would welcome the challenge rather than take a more simplistic route or buy his way to better performance. Should make for a great story if nothing else. Hope I live long enough to see if not experience the fantastic street bikes these sometime in the future winning race bikes will spawn. Rocket in England |
