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Turbostang52
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 05:24 pm: | 
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Hello guys,
I've got a real PITA problem here. I'll try to lay out as much information as I can as there are a lot of factors in this issue.
To start, I'll explain what the bike is doing:
1. Bike does not start but cranks strongly (most the time... sometimes the pump will not prime and although the neutral light stays on like it should, when initially turning 'key-on' the oil pressure light doesn't always come on with the check engine light (I understand that check engine light is supposed to go out after a few seconds upon initial 'key on')
2. Intermittently the high beam light on the dash stays on all the time, regardless of the switch position of the high beam switch.
Background on what has been done of the bike the past year:
I was in an accident with the bike April of last year. I hit a guard-rail at about 40 mph in a sharp curve due to debris in the road and "pac-manned" the front rim, broke the front forks and some other minor rash damage. After getting it home, the damage seemed to only be to the suspension and visual aspects of the bike. It started fine and seemed to idle well.
I replaced the forks and wheel/tire and the other cosmetic parts. Due to bike damage, I decided to repair a few other items and upgrade some other parts. I powder-coated the rear side-rails, underside of the bike, crankcase cover and the front housings on the front of the bike. Due to the rocker gaskets leaking, I dropped the motor and replaced the seals, replaced the plugs and drained and filled all my fluids. After talking with 'Octopus', I decided to also install an innovative wide-band kit so I could get my bike custom tuned as he is local to me.
After this, I put the whole bike back together excited to ride and although it seemed to run, it seemed to be running lean. I double checked the plugs and verified they were gapped correctly and okay. I then noticed on one start-up that the pump started to change noises to a harsher sound. I decided to take out the pump assembly and replaced the pump and filter. Upon start-up, pump sounded strong again but bike still seemed to run really lean and some serious popping on decel (more than usual).
I decided to take her around the block and just as I returned the bike to my driveway, it died and would not start. Since then, I have been having the 2 main issues above.
I have replaced/checked the following parts:
1. Fuel pump
2. Verified/cleaned the 2 rear grounds on the side rails (making sure bare metal was exposed) and have a solid ground.
3. Replaced battery
4. Fresh fuel
5. New plugs
6. Checked all connectors in the rear of the bike and the front including the light connectors (corrosion or burnt/melted connectors)
7. All fuses are good
8. Relays have been switched around with no change in condition (Recently replaced all the relays anyway)
9. Diode is installed correctly
10. I have a Race ECU in the bike, and have swapped in the factory original ECU with no change in the condition
11. Inspected the ECU connectors/terminals and no obvious damage found
12. I've removed and inspected the fuse box from the top and bottom and have found no obvious signs of damage, broken or loose wires
I should also note that sometimes, and only sometimes, when pushing on the fuse box, pulled on the rear harness or pushing on the ECU that I can get the pump to prime and bike to crank. I know this sounds like this is obviously where the problem is, but it is very intermittent and could be a fluke occurrence.
I realize that I will need to start getting deeper into the problem this next weekend by beginning to try to understand the wiring better and do some basic Ohm checks and voltage drop tests, but I wanted to run it by you guys and see what you think. Also, it would be great if anybody on here can confirm where some other major ground points are on the bike.... pictures would be super helpful.
I appreciate any help you guys can provide. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 06:29 pm: |
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Sorry to hear about your wreck, but it sounds like you weren't badly hurt.
Most of the issues you describe sound electrical, possibly related to the crash, but not necessarily. The highbeam indicator issue is a bad ground connection under the flyscreen. If I remember right, the main ground is a wire that connects to the steering neck and the ignition switch. Either way, I'd check around under there and reseat all the connectors, but it is possible there is some hidden crash damaged like a wire with an internal break.
Your other issue with getting the bike to start, it sounds like it is related to getting the ECM power. When the ECM powers up, it lights up the check engine light on the dash, and it fires up the fuel pump. If you are getting the CEL without any fuel pump noise, then the issue is related more directly to the pump and it is not getting power or signaled to turn on.
You said you had the seat rails re-powdercoated, those rails have ground points on them, I would sand the grounds down to ensure they have a clean connection. |
Turbostang52
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 07:01 pm: |
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Hello Froggy, and thank you for your advice and concern. I broke my hand and tore the ligaments in the thumb, and smashed up the cash and beans pretty badly... that said, another 50 feet down the road and I would pulled a superman right off a 500 foot cliff... so I was pretty lucky.
In regards to your first recommendation, checking the ground near the neck and ignition switch, I'll have to give that a go. I've really gone through there and don't remember seeing a ground located around there. That said, I'll give it another look. Being that I have an automotive mechanical background, I'm used to looking at more detailed wiring diagrams that the Buell Manual. For one, I'm used to seeing wiring diagrams of all the ground locations which I don't see in the Buell Manual. I really don't know for sure where they all are on this bike.
As far as the check engine light, I'll try to be a little more clear. The bike will do one of two things in regards to the check engine light/fuel pump priming.
First condition: I' turn the key to the "ON" position and switch the position to RUN. The NEUTRAL light will come ON and the check engine light and oil light will not. If the check engine light won't come on, then the pump won't prime when put into the RUN position.
Second condition: This condition is the same as the first only when I put the key ON, the check engine light will come on with the oil lamp, and when the RUN position is turned ON, the pump will prime.
Even when the lights seem to work as they should and the pump primes, the bike just cranks and won't start.
As far as the two ground in the rear tail of the bike (along the side rails), I already made sure to sand those down to bare metal and verified they are a good ground now.
It is very confusing... Obviously what makes it difficult to diag is that the condition is intermittent.
That said, I'll trace the main power to the ECU and verify it is getting power when the condition is occurring (when the check engine light and oil light don't illuminate).
Thanks for the advice thus far... keep the advice coming if you guys can  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2014 - 10:40 am: |
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Probably easy, either an under flyscreen ground problem like Froggy mentioned, or some wierd short or break in the wire bundle that comes out of the flyscreen and goes under the frame.
Pull that wire bundle apart, fix any chafe points, and run each wire through your fingertips individually and feel for internal breakages. |
Turbostang52
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 08:26 pm: |
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I wanted to post an update as to the status of the bike for others that might find themselves in this situation as I’ve made progress on some of the issues.
First problem I got resolved was the high beam/low beam light issue on the instrument panel. I ended up taking some members advice on here and double checking the ground points on the frame rails. I had them powder-coated previously, and although I had sanded them down when I got them back, I needed to do a better job. After grinding them down some more, the light problems went away.
Second issue resolved…. I got the bike started! After going back to the drawing board and starting at the basics, I decided to verify I had spark with a noid light… that checked out and confirmed I had spark. I also checked the injectors with a noid light and confirmed I had injector pulse. The next step is what finally helped me make some headway.
Let me start by saying, don’t “assume anything” when working a problem… especially an electrical problem. With all my car mechanical experience, I should have known better! I had “assumed” (funny how assumed starts with the word “ass”) that I was getting fuel because my pump would prime when turning the switch to the RUN position. That was a mistake. I decided to pull the fuel line and make sure there was pressure when it primed. When I pulled the fuel line it was bone dry!
I then started some diag on the fuel pump system and found a loose pin on the connector from the fuel pump assembly. I’m guessing that I either pulled it free when I replaced the pump, or it was caused during the accident. Either way, I tried to repair the pin (as I’ve repaired many a pin issue on car harnesses) but I couldn’t get the pin to seat with confidence. I decided to search ebay for a low mileage unit and picked one up for about $70 shipped. I got it a week later, swapped in a new pump and filter and bolted the pump assembly up.
Let me also add that you DO NOT need to remove the belt/cover/pulley assembly to replace the fuel pump. With all my years as a flat rate technician, I am always looking for the quicker method of a repair.. essentially the “lazy” way. I find that by using a front stand, and a jack under the rear of the muffler, I can get the ass of the bike up about 6 inches and when I unbolt the bottom bolt/nut from the shock assembly, the swing-arm drops just enough to ease the fuel pump assembly out. I’ve done this twice now and it literally takes me about 10 minutes to swap a pump assembly now… it takes longer to wait for the fuel to drain than it does to replace the assembly. Some might argue it stretches the belt some, but I’d say you’re good to go.
Back to the repair… After I put in the new pump assembly and turned the key to the ON position, the bike fired up after cranking about 3 or 4 times… SUCCESS!!! Then I realized that although the bike was started, it was running really crappy. It was running rich as there was lots of popping and could see some light from the TB tube (top of filter assembly was still off) and she didn’t want to stay running. I shut her down and pulled the plugs. I confirmed both plugs were black and found that the electrode on one of the wires was bent and damaged.
Here is where I left off. I decided to pick up another set of new plugs (NGK Iridium 9’s) and ordered a new set of wires from Iron Machine. Although I’m waiting on the wires to get here, in the meantime I’ve borrowed a friends laptop (all I have is Mac hardware) so I can finally get ECM SPY and do further analysis and a TPS reset.
I’ll check back in this weekend when I get some time to install the plugs, wires and complete a TPS reset. If all goes well, I’m hoping she’ll fire up and run right again.
If not, I’m curious to get ECMSPY going and evaluate how the temp sensor is acting as the rich condition I’m experiencing may be a symptom of such a malfunction.
Either way, I hope my pain will save another Bueller some trouble in the future!
I’ll keep you guys posted! |
Turbostang52
| | Posted on Friday, April 25, 2014 - 02:51 pm: |
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Just got done putting in the new plugs, wires and completing the TPS reset and although she will run for about 10 seconds or so, she ends up dying due to the overly rich condition.
The air intake sensor and engine temp sensor appear to be reading correctly (of course it would have been nice to have it run longer to monitor them better) and because it won't run long enough I've confirmed the engine is still in open loop.
A question for you guys… I currently don't have the O2 sensor plugged in as I have a wideband hooked up for tuning after I figure this out. I just wanted to confirm with the more experienced guys in here that this should not make a difference during a cold start like this. I ask because on a car, O2 sensor inputs don't matter when the vehicle is still in open loop as the ECM used stored values for idle/running conditions. I want to confirm that this is the case on the Buell as well.
Any other suggestions as to why it's running rich guys??? |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2014 - 08:57 pm: |
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reset the adaptive fuel value.Then try starting,let idle for 10min to relearn idle.If this dosn't work I would suspect crank position or the ECM. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2014 - 09:16 am: |
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NGK Iridium 9’s I use NGK Iridium 8’s on my 09 ULY found the bike to much more responsive then the NGK Iridium 9. I have 10,000 plus miles on them no issues |
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