| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
You won a world superbike championship on a Buell! That's outstanding, I can't believe I missed it! You should have told us! So, by your standards then, if EBR had aimed for a lower series but done better, that would have made them a team more worthy of respect? I'm just trying to understand... I'm not saying you are wrong or right, it's a personal preference thing. I coach a number of different kids sports, and have been on both sides of the issue. Put your team in an easier division and run the table, or put your team in a harder division and get spanked week after week. I have done both, but I personally always ended up feeling better loosing more against better competitors than I did going into some league where hard working but less talented kids were trying to run fair games, until I show up and just spank them week after week. The kids seem to learn more and grow better also. But each to their own I suppose... | ||
| Jaimec |
Remember, even a HUGE organization like BMW never won the WSBK championship. They gave up even trying. | ||
| Classax |
Here in the  we have the world's greatest game; BASEBALL! This is not up for debate, its a fact. Its in capital letters on the interwebs, so it must be true. Here we had(before the invention of select teams) something called little league. In little league children who had never played the game before were teamed with and against kids of the similar age who had. The more extreme version of this is Sandlot in which children of any age play,all for the love of the game. The children who had never played the game before usually got trounced and embarrassed, but quickly got better by leaps and bounds so that by the end of a typical season it was only the true All Star players with truly above average talent that could be distinguished from the rookies and regular vets. People in the heartland of that generation who are 35-80 years old, don't mind trials by fire, in fact we relish it. We purposefully go out and play with the big boys knowing we may get beaten, but will be far better for it, because the skills and knowledge we gain by doing so improve us far faster than any other way. I know that's not a very  way of doing it, but it has worked for the , , and  so you'll just have understand we do things differently in the colonies. The only ones who can say whether the EBR/HERO WSBK effort is a success or not are the ones who are actually setting the goals and writing the checks for that effort. Nearly to a man, they all have the companies' logos on their shirts or paychecks. Everyone else is merely pontificating on what they personally would like to see. The guys who set the goals said the goals are to "learn" and "develop the bike by racing in WSBK"(the unstated goal is to get press for both EBR and Hero). That IS happening therefore they ARE a success. Personally I hope they find more "success" and manage to out run the  bikes while doing so, but that's my goal not theirs. In the mean time can we just enjoy the races. (Message edited by Classax on April 03, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
The only ones who can say whether the EBR/HERO WSBK effort is a success or not are the ones who are actually setting the goals and writing the checks for that effort. However much a nice warm feeling that may be, it isn't true in racing. The people who will judge it to be a success or failure will be the people who watch the races and who ultimately may decide to buy the bikes. I'm sure that the staff at caterham or Marussia pat themselves on the back for a job well done every weekend in F1 when they fight for 22nd place. However that does not bring sponsor money and nobody is ever going to say 'wow you made a real success of that venture with years of finishing last'. Given the choice I'm sure all the committed and reliable engineers at caterham would jump ship to red Bull at a moments notice, regardless of how 'successful' they feel in their current roles. I hope that EBR can get up to speed, do well and be a success in WSb, but that doesn't mean they should be treated any different to other teams in the same series and should be judged equally against them as to whether they are a success at it. | ||
| Bads1 |
Wow...lmao | ||
| M2typhoon |
It's been one race, well two actually. I don't think I would base my overall opinion on what EBR is doing for testing, racing or goal setting yet. They have a huge mountain to climb and when you get dropped off no where near base camp, just getting that far is a challenge. | ||
| Bads1 |
Just about all teams on Facebook talk about there testing. Its how fans get to know them. Its all part of enjoying the sport as a fan. Both riders are great riders. Geoff being probably awesome in the the development of the bike. I have no idea about Aaron hes came back last year full time after a horrific leg injury. I don't understand why they didn't put a WSB level rider on one of the bikes?? These are all thing that many are scratching their heads on. I'm not expecting wins..... but I am expecting top 15 finishes mixed in. BMW did horrible in the Beginning with great riders. I'll make my judgment a couple races in. | ||
| Bamaben |
Matt, I looked up the word "clueless" in the dictionary and I believe I saw a picture of you.  By your logic for many years nothing but Suzuki would have been sold here in the states because thats what was winning week in week out. But it's funny, I saw lots of other brands roaming the roadways and trackdays here. When I rode into Daytona in 96 on my beloved Thunderbolt I saw one other Buell at the burger joint that all the sport bike guys hung at. As time went on more and more Buells were seen in Daytona during bike week. EBR is very very very small compared to just about any other manufacture out there and damn sure a lot younger. Not everyone in the world buys a bike because it wins on the weekend. Many will buy it because it is unique, powerful, well equipped, just plain cool because it's different and it strikes up a conversation etc. Like all the serious sportbikes out there 99% of the riders will not get 70% of what the bike can do. We don't know why they didn't make the test. Maybe the parts weren't ready and this gave them a little extra time. I don't know. This is a testing year for them so everything they learn is going to be for the future. They will give 110% to learn the most and show as best they can and I believe true race fans and riders will understand the passion and commitment that EBR has for the sport and the bikes themselves. You don't seem to give a lot of credit to riders or race fans. You seem to believe that only podium bikes are going to be sold because that's all that is cared about. If this were the case then we wouldn't see many bikes out on the road would we. I believe race fans are wise enough to know what is going on here and are willing to give EBR time to get things up to speed. I also believe that in these waters that EBR has entered that at some point in the future they will have to be competitive week in week out. I do believe this will happen and I, along with many many others, am willing to cheer them on while they grow in front of our eyes. I haven't posted on this site in many years but I always read it. Love all the banter. GO EBR! | ||
| M1combat |
Stop feeding the trolls. | ||
| Classax |
However much a nice warm feeling that may be, it isn't true in racing. The people who will judge it to be a success or failure will be the people who watch the races and who ultimately may decide to buy the bikes. I'm sorry but two things, for the most part, the people who buy EBR are going to buy them whether they win in WSBK or not. Secondly, as long as the guys writing the checks are pleased enough to continue doing so, it really doesn't matter what the rest of the racing community thinks about the team and where they finish. I'm sure that the staff at caterham or Marussia pat themselves on the back for a job well done every weekend in F1 when they fight for 22nd place. However that does not bring sponsor money... I'm sure they do and like every other team in the paddock they make a plan to try and improve. For all I know they may be like a lot of us, who close the door and jump up and down for joy because we can't believe the team was able to make pay role and the equipment is intact another race weekend. You named the teams but you might want to go back and check because they have plenty of sponsors one of which is the largest corporation in the world, GE! If GE is pleased with their performance who am I or you to disagree unless we're gonna pay to have our names plastered across the side of the car(s). and nobody is ever going to say 'wow you made a real success of that venture with years of finishing last'. There was a great Tenor Saxophonist by the name of Sonny Stitt. A true once in a life time talent. He was often over shadowed by his immediate predecessor, Alto Sax LEGEND Charlie Parker. Critics often panned Stitts fast playing style and said "all he does is play the tenor like Charlie Parker." During an interview in which one critic leveled this complaint, Stitt calmly unhooked his tenor, handed it to the critic and said, " well OK, let's see you play the tenor like Charlie Parker." My point being before judging someone's efforts negatively for not being the best, one ought to season one's criticisms with the knowledge that they themselves could likely be nowhere close to being able to do nearly as well, let alone any better. Somewhere the families and coworkers of those last place race team staffs consider them a huge success, considering how many people would like to, but can't race professionally. Again since they write and cash the checks, its really only their opinions that are qualified to matter. Mat's run very successful, by his standards and mine, race teams, but we shouldn't confuse our standards for success with EBR or Hero's, unless we can agree they are the same which they clearly stated are not. Its the ole golden rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules. Given the choice I'm sure all the committed and reliable engineers at caterham would jump ship to red Bull at a moments notice, regardless of how 'successful' they feel in their current roles. I think you're flat wrong on that one. I know plenty of guys that would rather captain a sinking ship than be first mate of the best yacht in the fleet. Those are the type that typically wind up supporting the industry that supports racing. I hope that EBR can get up to speed, do well and be a success in WSb,  Hear HEAR! but that doesn't mean they should be treated any different to other teams in the same series and should be judged equally against them as to whether they are a success at it. Sarcasm Font Enabled< My advise is quit being so judgmental, particularly about things for which your judgments have Zero Influence, Zero Control and Zero Impact. You'll live happier longer.... >Sarcasm Font Disabled Dana- I'm trying to be a more colorful poster, did it work? (Message edited by Classax on April 03, 2014) | ||
| Bads1 |
LOL I see valid points from everyone. But its just way to early in the game to speculate. As far Erik?? I've talked him enough..... read enough.... and spent enough time at the track as a fan to know that his drive to race is about as huge as it is to make great bikes. So when I say Drive to race. No racer goes out there to take second place. He wants to win. Lets see if the right combination of things make that happen for him. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think the point Matt made, which started this argument, was to do with EBR testing at a little known Spanish club circuit when they could have tested at the track they're about to race at. This, yet another out of kilter direction EBR have taken since their entry into WSBK. Rocket in England | ||
| Ljm |
Actually, this argument has gone on at multiple steps along this journey. And perhaps is a question of safety or perspective. For my part, I have competed and coached at the international level in another sport and been privileged to stand on top of the podium and hear the National Anthem several times. But you don't get that opportunity without striving for it or by staying in your back yard. As my daughter (who won 3 World Championships) so accurately stated, "I'd rather get crushed by the best than win at home." Maybe these guys are warriors and not couch potatoes who stay in their comfort zone. And there is the remotest of possibilities that the people inside the walls have a plan as to how to prosecute this operation vs. those outside, who, well believe that they do. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Maybe these guys are warriors and not couch potatoes who stay in their comfort zone. And there is the remotest of possibilities that the people inside the walls have a plan as to how to prosecute this operation vs. those outside, who, well believe that they do. Oh pass the sick bucket puleeeze  Rocket in England | ||
| Ljm |
pm me your address. I'll post you one. Bwahahaha!  (Message edited by ljm on April 04, 2014) | ||
| Court |
I'm excited. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, I looked up the word "clueless" in the dictionary and I believe I saw a picture of you Yeah right, I'm 56 now and have been involved with road racing and been a lifelong fan for most of that time, in addition to running a (Buell) race team, and been a personal sponsor for a number of riders. I may sometimes be opinionated but clueless? No. So, if you substitute the emotive EBR name for Bimota, Pedercini kawasaki or maybe Foggy Petronas then maybe the discussion would be a bit less heated and personal. Why initial point was: 1. that you need to test amongst your peers to get the relevant information. It is of limited use testing in isolation at a small circuit that nobody races at, and that neither rider haas any experience of (unless you are just destruction testing compnents). 2. Judging a team to be a 'success' just because they turn up to race is premature and purely down to brand loyalty. Racing success relies on solid results, not just taking part. I agree that it is early days yet and we have had just one race. However they also had all winter (the same as the other teams) to have everything ready for the first round and test before the season started. I really do hope that the rest of the season shows a marked improvement. | ||
| Hughlysses |
May returns to action as Team Hero EBR prepare for second round http://www.worldsbk.com/en/news/2014/May+returns+t o+action+as+Team+Hero+EBR+prepare+for+second+round | ||
| Crusty |
Would you consider it a sign of success, if one, or both, bikes make it into Superpole at Aragon? | ||
| Trojan |
Would you consider it a sign of success, if one, or both, bikes make it into Superpole at Aragon? It would certainly be a sign of real progress if they qualified well, although you get no points for being on pole position. I would rather see an upward curve of finishing positions and at least to be ahead of the EVO teams by round 4 or 5 at most. Remember this is a 'factory team' (it really doesn't matter how big or small the factory actually is, this is the class they chose to race in) with I suspect decent funding from 'the worlds largest motorcycle manufacturer', so they need to judge success or failure on those terms. It is a stretch to see them up with the leading factory teams at the moment but that is where they should be looking to be able to think of the venture as a success long term. Personally I think they would have been better served to enter as an EVO team this year so that they have a learning year for 2015 (when everyone will be running EVO regs) with no pressure for results other than EVO class finishes. By entering the 'factory' class (or whatever they want to call it) they are spending their first year chasing performance from equipment specs that will be gone next year, and will need to do it all again for 2015. They are also asking to be judged against the other bikes in theri class, and they are pretty much all well sorted factory (or factory backed) entries that have WSB experience and WSb riders of note. But then what do I know, I'm clueless  | ||
| Reepicheep |
I don't think you are clueless, I just think your expectations on racing as it relates to marketing and shaping a company and it's engineering are uninspiring and dated. You have a reasonable and well thought position though. Just a boring one. Doesn't the Evo class put pretty tight constraints on mods and number of engines? Wouldn't that be a really stupid thing to do for a first year team that is fielded by a company who's strongest asset is it's agility? If Honda or Suzuki wants to change a washer, it will take a year of meetings and reviews, just like any other big company. EBR, at this moment, can do things the bigger companies could only dream of. I'd say EBR could wring 10 years of benefits out of one season if they apply brilliance and discipline to leverage their agility very carefully but very aggressively. Your proposed approach is building the Maginot line. Nobody got fired for doing that, but when the blitzkrieg appeared, it turned out to be a complete waste. Even the atlantic wall ultimately showed that you just can't win the day with a conservative and uninspired defense. (Sorry for all the analogies, I am re-reading Citizen Soldier and learning so much...) | ||
| Trojan |
Doesn't the Evo class put pretty tight constraints on mods and number of engines? Wouldn't that be a really stupid thing to do for a first year team that is fielded by a company who's strongest asset is it's agility? You miss my point I think. Yes the EVO class puts more constraints on engine mods etc. however......next year EVERYONE will have to run to EVO rules, so developing a bike to run to this years rules when you know it is only a learning year is pretty pointless. Why not use this year to develop the bike that you KNOW is going to race next year? They are not going to fight for wins this year regardless so plan ahead. Why do you think that Kawasaki are running an 3rd EVO bike in the factory team this year alongside the current factory bikes? I may be be boring, but it makes absolutely no sense to me to spend a lot fo time money and effort getting up to speed this year only to find you have to do it again next year under new rules. Why not just cut to the chase and develop next years bike now? Bimota have realsied this and are developing thei bike specifically for EVO rules. They know they can't expect to come into the series and be compeitive with the big guns straight away (and they have an extablished WSB winning team behind them). lets face it, even if the bike is up to winning this year the riders aren't going to know any tracks and (at least one of them) aren't up to the level of the top guys anyway. let them learn the tracks this year on the 2015 development bike then hit the ground running at the start of 2015. EBR, at this moment, can do things the bigger companies could only dream of. If that was the case then why were they unable to have enough parts to test preseason? You think that Kawasaki/Honda/Suzuki have to wait for factory parts to arrive if they need them? They don't. They get their suppliers to make them, which is whyt hey work with Cosworth, FTR, Yoshimura, Harris etc and not direct with the factories. Most of the top teams had various new parts to test at Jerez this week, and can certainly change spec and produce new race parts just as quickly as EBR can (just use established third party expert companies instead of the factory). Do you think that in world class racing EBR have a monopoly on discipline and brilliance? | ||
| Hughlysses |
You miss my point I think. Yes the EVO class puts more constraints on engine mods etc. however......next year EVERYONE will have to run to EVO rules, so developing a bike to run to this years rules when you know it is only a learning year is pretty pointless. Why not use this year to develop the bike that you KNOW is going to race next year? They are not going to fight for wins this year regardless so plan ahead. Matt- I thought that was the whole point. If EBR ran EVO class this year, they couldn't really make any changes to the engine during the racing season. By running in the main class this year, they can modify the engines based on lessons learned as the season goes on with the intent of incorporating these changes into production engines for next year's model so they'll be competitive within the EVO rules limitations. Perhaps this will result in a less-competitive team this year, but a more-competitive team long-term. | ||
| Classax |
The EVO class has been designed to basically force the manufactures to race what they sell to John Q Public. Its clear EBR intends to develop and sell as much as possible a superbike spec machine to the public. Hence they are seizing the season at hand to develop that machine on the track. As opposed to the other factories who are either going to have to follow suit or go back to racing what they sell to the public. Which for the likes of Aprilia, Kawi,Suzuki and to a lesser extent Ducati in terms of engines, transmissions and electronics, are not even remotely close to what they sell on the street. Take a look at a race prepped RS and the street bikes or even the RX, scrap the EPA and DOT parts and you pretty much have the same equipment. We threw my RX up on the dyno expecting to see nothing close to the factory spec like every other bike I've owned. We were all shocked to find the bone stock bike to be nearly dead on to the factory claims. Try that with a stock Aprilia or a Panigale, you will be disappointed. I know because I was. (granted the Ape and Duc have proven they have a lot of HP that can be unlocked with enough work and parts) The fundamental difference we are having is that there're some of us who think the only success in going racing is winning, and others of us who see racing as a means to an end outside of racing which if the end if achieved, then we deem the racing effort a success. The question we all need to really be asking ourselves is: "If Japanese bikes are "Rice Burners" and Italian bikes are referred to as "Pasta Burners" what is it these American bikes burn?"  (Message edited by classax on April 04, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
"If Japanese bikes are "Rice Burners" and Italian bikes are referred to as "Pasta Burners" what is it these American bikes burn?" Sticking with the carbohydrate theme, I guess we eat a lot of bread, so maybe "Bun Burners"?  | ||
| Gregtonn |
Well put Hugh. Precisely what I have been thinking. No matter what happens this is going to be a development year so why would you want to have the added restrictions imposed by running in the EVO class? Also, it may well be why they chose to to do some "private testing" rather than testing at Aragon. In the box thinking restricted Buell (HD), I don't think you will see that from EBR. G | ||
| Trojan |
Which for the likes of Aprilia, Kawi,Suzuki and to a lesser extent Ducati in terms of engines, transmissions and electronics, are not even remotely close to what they sell on the street. I think you would be very surprised at how close the Ducati engine in particular is to the street Panigale, simply becaue the rules do not allow them to change engine internals. The 4 cylinder bikes get more concessions at the moment, although the real differecne between race and street these days is in electronics and electronics strategies. Try that with a stock Aprilia or a Panigale, you will be disappointed. I doubt that. if you want a WSB spec Ducati you just call them up and buy the race kit. Don't know if you can do that with Aprilia but all the parts are out there for most eligible WSB bikes if you have the money and skill to build them. As rules next year will force teams to run much closer to stock (Twins already have less allowed than 4 cylinders anyway) what advantage can EBR gain from developing parts that are going to be banned next year? | ||
| Hughlysses |
As rules next year will force teams to run much closer to stock (Twins already have less allowed than 4 cylinders anyway) what advantage can EBR gain from developing parts that are going to be banned next year? EBR could incorporate the parts into the 2015 production bikes that would then be legal in EVO class. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That is my thinking... If I was an entrenched bureaucracy like Honda or Suzuki, for sure I'd be running Evo rules this year. But for a company that can still turn on a dime like EBR, it would be foolish to lock down a brand new platform a year earlier than necessary. It's one of their two single greatest strengths a this point. They would be fools to throw it away. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Some of you need a lesson in manners. Never mind motorcycle racing. You'd rather look through a pair of rose tinted glasses than respect the comments of a person with half a century of knowledge and experience in racing because of your sentimental twaddle. I hope for EBR's sake Matt's comments prove wrong. This short distance into the season, at least his words should serve as a warning shot to EBR, given they appear to have their head up their arse. If you can't see this, removing rose tints will clear the view! Rocket in England |
