| Author | Message | ||
     Adam |
Aloha to anyone interested: I have a 2001 M2 Cyclone with about 50k wonderful miles on it. Recently about a month after replacing the stator and the clutch cable with the coated cable from American Sport Bike, the bike has started making noises when the clutch lever is pulled in so the clutch is disengaged. The noise didn't occur immediately after the stator / clutch cable replacement, but within a month or two. The clutch also seemed to come out of adjustment - it had too much free play and was dragging slightly with the level all the way in. In retrospect though I don't believe I adjusted it correctly when I replaced the cable (I did not collapse the cable and then position the clutch adjusting screw - I did it in the wrong order the first time). Anyway, the noise can alternately sound like a chirp or squeal or clanking. I tried my usual MO of lurking through old threads to diagnose and repair this, but I have a few questions. And any advice anyone has would be much appreciated. I gather that a bearing within the clutch is failing or has failed. I pulled the clutch inspection cover and removed the ball and ramp assembly to check it out. I have not yet removed the entire primary cover. I don't find any metal bits anywhere. I don't notice any burning smell. It feels like the adjusting screw has more play in it than I remember, but this is probably subjective and not the most reliable indicator. It just almost feels like it's in a ball-and-socket joint now. I can see the smaller bearing (labeled #15 on the diagram) and I don't see any obvious damage. I can't see the other bearing (labeled #25 on the diagram). Here's a few questions I have: 1. Anyone have an educated guess about what the problem is and what might have caused it? 2. I keep reading in BadWeB posts about the "throwout bearing", but I don't see that phrase anywhere in the service manual. Is this piece #15 on the diagram? 3. I also read here about the "needle bearing"; is this piece #25 on the diagram? 4. I don't see a procedure for inspecting or replacing just one or both of those bearings; just a much larger procedure for repairing the entire clutch assembly. Is it possible to replace these bearings without disassembling the clutch pack? Such as by removing the entire clutch assembly without disassembling it, which is what I was able to do to replace the stator. (I don't have a clutch compression tool.) 5. On the other hand, since I've never replaced the clutch pack and the bike has 50k miles on it, is it recommended that I replace that clutch pack now anyway? (I've been reading a fair bit about this riveted "grenade plate" that sounds like it's just waiting to 'actualize its potential' on me.) 6. Are these jobs (replacing these bearings, replacing the clutch pack, etc.) reasonably achievable for a novice DIYer? I'm literally under the shade of a coconut tree here. I've sever seen this work done before, but I have the service and parts manuals, I'm not in a rush and I can read a procedure. I don't have easy access to a hydraulic press or larger tools like that, and historically fabricating things isn't my strong suit, but I'm good with hand tools and I'm well-stocked with those. Thanks for any answers or advice you can give. Adam  | ||
| Bluebueller |
Squeel and chirping? Check primary chain tension first. Mine did that brand new from the dealer setup but I loosened it to proper freeplay, and it went away. Surprised my bearings held up, but they still work many miles later, though that may not be the the case for you. But check primary chain first. I can post later how to set properly but I'm on my phone now, won't be on comp till later. Clutch plates are easy to replace. Someone else will have to discuss the change of bearings though. | ||
| Buellistic |
PRIMARY CHAIN ADJUSTMENT Class 101, just PM me for a copy ... | ||
| Adam |
Ok thanks gents, I'll check the primary tension and report back after that. | ||
| Adam |
Well, thanks for all the good technical info and suggestions. But I checked the primary chain tension (just by finger though, not with an actual gauge of any kind). I already had it a bit loose. I backed the set screw out even more, and it still chirps and squeals and clanks with the engine running when I pull in the clutch. I backed the set screw almost completely out, and same effect. So ... even if my tension WAS too tight, and that did some damage somewhere else, too-high tension is not what's causing the noise now. If the tension was too high before, what damage would that have done? One or both of the bearings in the clutch? Or something else? | ||
| Bluebueller |
Do not do what i did; ride it till it goes away. | ||
| Bluebueller |
Do a full and proper chain adjustment first - Buellistic has a great write up on how to complete that. don't eyeball it. I too do most of my work on my bike, hooked up under the rafters of my porch. but sitting under a coconut tree sounds much more relaxing.... By the way, the clutch pack is very easy - but you do need to invest in a clutch tool. I used the one from American Sportbike, I figured the cost of the tool and parts is still less than a clutch job at the dealer or shop. besides that tool, its simple. the 'grenade plate' is just one of the plates in the clutch pack, I kept mine in - upon inspection it was still solid, but I also don't kill my clutch (wheelies, hard launches, etc) its possible the main crank bearing could be bad - the one behind the stator, if it isn't the clutch bearings. good luck in solving this one. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Grenade plate. Drain the primary. If you get *pieces* with the oil...the grenade plate...well...grenaded. Squeaks/squeals canNOT be chain adjustment. NOTHING on a wet chain squeaks or squeals. The only reason a misaligned chain rattles...is from the chain slapping into the case. | ||
| Bluebueller |
I almost forgot - check out the chain tensioner itself - if it feels loose - it may have broken - I found mine with a clean crack in the metal - HD made a newer one that is much thicker steel and stronger than the original - I started to hear some 'clanking' before I went in there - and was not surprised to find it broken. Al at American sport bike carries this piece as well. Easy to install, and since you will be in the primary - you can do the clutch job, and really look at each of the bearings - if any are loose - you may have found your culprit. also make sure you tighten it all back up to spec, new gasket, new shift shaft seal (install after reinstalling the primary case) torque it all according to the manual, adjust the chain tension, fill 'er up with oil. By the way - I switched to HD sync3 from HD sport-trans fluid in primary and in motor, and noticeable difference in shifting. You could try that oil before digging into the whole job and see what happens.... | ||
| Adam |
Riding it till it goes away has never worked for me either Bluebueller. :-D But some part of my brain just keeps suggesting it. I think based on the advice here, I will pull the cover and check the chain tensioner assembly. If that's fine, then I'll pull the entire clutch assembly, primary chain and engine sprocket as a unit (the steps on page 6-12) to see if I can find a smoking gun of sorts. And if I still can't find anything, order the clutch tool and disassemble the clutch pack. I think I'd have more faith in a manufactured tool than my own fabrication abilities. I can't shake the feeling that the threaded rod (piece #16) seems like it has too much play. It feels like the more outer bearing #15 (throw-out bearing? wrong name?) has a grip on the middle of the rod's length, but there doesn't seem to be much restricting the more inboard end from swinging around (since I can swing the outboard end around pretty freely). Shouldn't this rod just be able to move along an inboard-outboard axis? A left-right oriented axis between the left and right sides of the bike? Because I can pull it in and out a little, but I can also swing it in a circle around this axis and it seems like bearing #25 should be anchoring the inboard end, preventing all this lateral motion. Or maybe I am just convincing myself this is the problem and it's something else entirely. | ||
| Adam |
Thinking out loud some more, to get the clutch to engage and disengage, this rod has to move along the left-right axis, correct? The ball-and-ramp converts a push or pull of the clutch cable exerted onto the hook into a sideways push or pull along the axis of that rod. So if the rod can move laterally instead of axially, that's going to allow the ball-and-ramp to drag along the guide part of the primary cover? The lip that has cracked or broken off completely in some other posts I've read? (Mine looks fine.) How much of that kind of motion would be acceptable? So, just now, with the engine off and the clutch inspection cover removed, and with the clutch release mechanism and clutch cable both adjusted, if I operate the clutch lever and watch the ball-and-ramp assembly rotate, it doesn't make any noise (none of the chirping, squealing and irregular clanking that it makes with the engine running). But it does seem like the forward edge of the ball-and-ramp is very hard up against the primary cover. In other words, in the picture below, there is no gap between the ball-and-ramp and the primary cover at the forward most/left most boundary. Like the properly tensioned clutch cable is actually pulling the ball-and-ramp up against the primary cover. This doesn't seem right. It seems like bearings #15 and #25 should be taking this load, not this lip of the primary cover itself. And if bearing #15 seems good, and it's located along the middle of the threaded rod, but I can wiggle around my end of the rod a lot, probably too much, then the far end of the rod is not actually being held in place by bearing #25 (the bearing I can't see yet). Anyone see any flaw in this reasoning?  | ||
| Blu1hockey |
I can't help you but I like how descriptive you are. It's nice reading something I can understand instead of "the rod thing is wiggly" good luck. | ||
| Bluebueller |
check this link out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnFj5EIEoLE look about 5:10 - is your bearing this loose? then yes its bad.... | ||
| Adam |
Bluebueller, the adjusting screw on mine is acting differently than his. His looks and sounds rough when he spun it with his fingers around 4:30. Mine will spin smoothly, but it's able to swing way off-axis though. (But I'm not certain this is wrong.) On the other hand, I think I have talked myself into misunderstanding how this threaded rod is held in. It looks like the only bearing affecting this rod is the little bearing #15 in the original diagram Figure 6-14. I'm surprised that it has so much off-axis play. (In other words, "the rod thing is wiggly"!) Bearing #25 on Figure 6-14 seems to be allowing relative motion between the clutch hub (#23) and the clutch shell (#26).  It looks like you still have to pull the cover to remove the adjusting screw assembly (start of procedure on page 6-12), but I don't have to pull the whole clutch and engine sprocket and chain off together to do that. | ||
| Adam |
Problem solved. It was only this bearing #15 on Figure 6-14 that was bad. All my earlier speculation was BS - the adjusting screw is only in contact with this bearing, not #25 also. It's just that this bearing has enough depth that it should keep the adjusting screw from getting too far off-axis. With the new bearing in place, the slotted end of the adjusting screw will only move about a millimeter up/down or forward/aft. With the old bad bearing, it was moving about 5 millimeters or more off-axis. I wasn't sharp enough to notice that the bearing was bad just by looking at it in place, and when I spun it by hand, it didn't seem that bad to me, but with the new bearing installed it definitely spins much smoother now. I guess I should have known better. The bad bearing was still fortunately in one piece, but one face of the inner race had worn away and basically wore of a bunch of glitter inside the puka in the clutch assembly that houses the adjusting screw. So I had to wipe all that out. I think the squealing and chirping and clanking were either noises made by the bad bearing, or the ball-and-ramp assembly dragging along the guide on the inside of the primary cover, or some combination of both. In retrospect, it looks like it's possible to replace this bearing without removing the primary cover. In this photo, you can see the larger gray retaining ring holding in the entire assembly. That's part #1 in Figure 6-15. It would probably help to position the holes for the retaining ring pliers near the bottom as in the photo to make them more accessible. (But I don't completely understand the geometry of the clutch so I don't know if this will rotate if you ride the bike.) The procedure would go like this: * Removing Adjusting Screw Assembly with cover in place * In section 6.2, do the following steps in the procedure for removing the primary cover: 1, 2, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12 Then go to section 6.4 and in the procedure for removing the primary chain/drive, do steps 10 a, b, and c. Oddly enough, 10 a and 10 b are repeats of steps 3 a and 3 b in that section. Typo? I used a 36mm socket to hold the release plate, and a 10mm socket to push on the bearing to press the old bearing out of the release plate. The new one went in easily by hand. Installation is mostly the reverse os removal, and then you gotta adjust the clutch assembly and clutch cable afterward. But this would save you from the extra work of having to remove and replace the primary cover, with two or three possible gaskets to replace: quad ring, primary cover gasket, and possibly the clutch cable o-ring. Interestingly, the primary cover removal procedure doesn't seem to tell you to unscrew the clutch cable from the cover itself, but it seems like it puts a lot of stress on the threaded cable housing if you leave it in the cover. Anyway, thanks for everyone's help and ideas and process improvements. (Message edited by Adam on June 13, 2014) | ||
| Adam |
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| Blu1hockey |
I'm glad it's not wiggly anymore. Great write up. I have to replace my shifter shift assembly. So I will have to look at this while I'm there. I also have the problem where the book doesn't show how to change just the shift so I'll have to see how much I have to disassemble to change it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for posting that Adam, great research, great info. | ||
| Captainkirk |
I just love great descriptive write-ups like this along with pix....so much more helpful than the service manual in many cases. Thanks again! |
