| Author | Message | ||
     Gemini |
I have replace my stock style relay two times in six months. Fried contact with a touch of melted housing around pin. Just a heads up | ||
| Timebandit |
Six months is how many miles for you? I took a lot of shit from some people for recommending that it be changed every couple thousand miles when you change your oil. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=290431&post=2182046#POST2182046 | ||
| Gemini |
About 6-7,000 | ||
| Oldog |
I took a lot of shit from some people for recommending that it be changed every couple thousand miles when you change your oil. Why? I agree with you most automotive relays in this small form factor cant handle long term high current switching, I am supprized that they work for this at all...} | ||
| Stimbrell |
Anyone who thinks that needing to change a relay in the charging system of a modern, supposedly state of the art street motorcycle, every 2,000 miles is acceptable, please get in touch, it just so happens I have the authority to offer for sale a bridge currently on the Thames here in London that I can sell you at a unbelievably good price! | ||
| Timebandit |
See what I mean? It doesn't matter if the facts show that the parts wear out when used in a way for which they were never intended, and which forces them to work beyond their rated specifications; preconceived notions and expectations are what matters! | ||
| Froggy |
In all fairness, it does sound like the relay being used is the wrong tool for the job if it needs to be replaced that much. Another victory by the beancounters? | ||
| Stimbrell |
No, vendors doing the right thing by their customers is what matters. Harley Davidson have failed, in spectacular fashion, to do this. | ||
| Timebandit |
Frank, it was established long ago that the relay *IS* the wrong tool for the job, and the reason it is constantly failing is that it's being subjected to voltages and currents that are beyond it's design limits/ratings. In addition, the charging harness was so poorly designed that it failed to employ an arc-suppression capacitor to prevent the relay contacts from being toasted during high voltage/high current switching. The fact that the harness was never properly designed is evidence that it was never intended to actually FIX the problem -- It was intended only to be a stopgap measure -- a cheap fix to get HD through the warranty period, and then let all of the subsequent failures occur on the customers' dime. | ||
| Nattyx1 |
It's all very disappointing, isn't it? So what precisely shall I do? My 2010cr is running fine now... I've been off the board for a while. What relay should I get and from where? I'd like to ride my bike to Laguna in July for MotoGP,... ALL THE WAY THERE AND BACK! thanks! | ||
| Dannybuell |
I have been running this way on my 09 for for 10K miles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYEYGJfyBw&feature =youtu.be I think the harness is just what you are saying it was, ill conceived. If you could get the truth out of HD, I suspect that part of the issue may have been quality assurance issues. My factory stator went at 2200 miles. The warranty stator with 17,000 miles seems to be holding its own. | ||
| Timebandit |
From an engineering standpoint (the underlying principles) the charging system "update" was brilliantly conceived. The idea to single-phase the system to reduce heat generation was pure genius. The problem, at least in my opinion, was that H-D skimped on the implementation of the idea in a deliberate attempt to count beans. They skimped on the relay, they avoided spending money on a cap, all of which saved money but rendered the system more likely to fail. The unfortunate truth is that there are a lot of ways that you can attempt to fix the problem after the fact, but none of them are quite as effective as designing the system so that the problem doesn't occur in the first place. Unfortunately, once the beancounters make the decision to omit features (ie: rotor oiling port), that lack of features defines a set of conditions where our ability to respond effectively in the aftermarket is limited. There are all sorts of electrical ways to attack the problem,but the truth is that you might not need them if the rotor had the oiling port that it was designed to have from the beginning. I think this is just simply a case of the beancounters putting the screws to the customer to save a few bucks in production. Look at the headaches it's caused. I'm glad that we have EBR coming to the rescue with the rotor exchange service. for a couple hundred bucks you can get the oiling rotor so the bike works the way it was originally intended to work. There's no guarantee that it's the final solution, but it's going to be a huge step in the right direction. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
If the harness relay is playing up, or open circuit, could it damage the stator/regulator? I've had two previous stators which had gone from being good to bad in a matter of days, both replaced under warranty. About 5 weeks ago I noticed that voltage wasn't getting up to 14V cold, and was starting to dip under 12V in the traffic with the fans on. It was the kind of thing where I wasn't sure if anything was definitely wrong as it was still charging above 3000rpm... (Around this time I received my re-flashed ECM from EBR, now set for my slip-on and normal engine braking. I reset the key off fan temps so the fans don't run when switched off unless it's *really* hot to give the battery an easier time.) The charging slowly got worse and when I started getting battery lights coming on in the traffic, then ECM lights, and the voltage dipping down as low as 11.3V, I rang the dealer. They couldn't get me in for a couple of weeks, so I tried bypassing the relay harness with no change, still charging a bit at 3000+, but not at idle. Tried a new battery, no change. I picked up the bike tonight with warranty replacement stator #3 and first replacement regulator. The dealer had tested it and said all was good, holding 12.4V when hot with the fans running. He showed me the regulator they had pulled out, the wires to the stator were all discoloured, brown not yellow. To me, two of them seemed worse (darker, more burned) than the third. The dealer said they'd never seen a reg like that, but I do remember reading on here about someone who had two of the wires melting together (shorting out those stator legs). I left the dealer and saw 14V pretty quickly  . About 10 minutes into the trip, maybe less, I had a battery light again!  The voltage was dipping down to about 11.7V with the fans, charging a little when moving (traffic was heavy and slow so hard to get rpm up). After 15 minutes of this, and not seeing above 12.5V, I pulled over, took the seat off. The 30A relay I had put in was still there and it felt warm. I bypassed the relay harness and bingo, 13-14V again I will try a new relay tomorrow, and also check the connections at the ECM and make sure it's all plugged in ok. Sorry for the long story, but if the relay was playing up 6 or 7 weeks ago, could it have contributed to the two more discoloured wires on the regulator, placing more load on those legs? Now that I have a new stator I'm thinking it might be the right timing for a series/switching type regulator. | ||
| Ros |
Well today is a bad day again!! My voltages dropped to 11.5-11.8v at traffic lights, and battery light show again, so first I checked the relay (the second one).... (I don't know how to attach images so I'll put the link) Here you can see how plastic is melted... on relay and the harness plug also. This relay is a spare relay I bought with the same specs that the original... http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5527/img0561e.j pg http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2817/img0562b.j pg And here I decided to take it apart, you can see how the internal connectors (small dots) are really degraded (this relay has 2500km on it) http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/7164/img0563th. jpg So the original factory relay is melted too, so I think that something is going on, because two relays in 1 month is not normal. Next Thursday the bike is going to my dealer, He told me HD issued a new "upgraded" relay... IRONIC MODE ON... Of course yes that's good news HD cares about us... IRONIC MODE OFF... That's BS, HD maybe put a 60amp relay instead the 30Amp!! Wow what a clever solution!! I'll asked to my dealer that give to me all the historical issues of my bike, some people of Spain including me, are planing to make a united demand on Protector Consumer Office against HD. | ||
| Sparky |
Inquiring minds want to know: What is the part number for this upgraded relay? It seems that the dealer where I get my bike serviced could not find one related to the 1125 Charging System Upgrade in H-D's system without resorting to looking in the aftermarket. He did find a Crane "Start Boost Relay" which is rated at 30/40A, 14VDC that fits the footprint and terminal ID that Harley calls out though. | ||
| Sparky |
OK, I found the p/n by just looking at the relay. It's 31504-91B. Whether this is a new "upgraded" relay, I don't know. Back to that Crane relay, the circuit diagram on its back does not show an arc suppression diode across the coil like the H-D part does. So, in that light, I would not recommend the Crane relay over the H-D part. Sorry for the thread hijack. | ||
| Kevmean |
I think if you check the part number it's the same relay as listed for the starter relay on a Blast  | ||
| Kevmean |
Looking at those photos it looks like your main problem was a bad connection between the relay and plug .....a bad connection = resistance = heat | ||
| Sparky |
I just recently switched the stock ECM for an EBR race ECM so I was concerned about the EBR activating the relay like the stock ECM. Maybe it was just coincidental, but right after changing to the race ECM, I noticed the battery voltage was not showing two green lights (approx 13.5 to 14 VDC) on the Kuryakyn battery monitor while on the freeway anymore and dipping into the low 12s around town. This was generally with both fans running. So today I decided to checkout the relay by putting the VOM on each of the two yellow wire terminals (the one phase that gets switched in or out by the ECM) of the connector that mates with the relay and measuring to chassis ground. With the engine idling I saw 0 VAC on one terminal and approx 20 VAC on the other. That meant that the relay was probably not closed when it should be. After disconnecting the relay I took it to the bench and applied +12VDC to term 85 and return to term 86 with the VOM on the ohms scale on terms 30 & 87. The relay would click but results showed no continuity when there should be, confirming my thoughts that the relay had burned out its contacts. So I replaced the relay with a new one of the same type, 31504-91B, and it passed the above test. With this new relay the bike now charges mid 13s and 14s around town again, albeit it was cooler today and one fan was running mostly. So, yes, check your relay often. | ||
| Craigsmoney |
"I have replace my stock style relay two times in six months. Fried contact with a touch of melted housing around pin. Just a heads up" I just replaced my relay for the same reason. For shits and giggles, I thought I would take apart the old relay to see what was going on in there. Sure as shit it was melted in side the relay in such a way that it would prevent it from switching. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Which relay is it that everyone is replacing? I have a system voltage error and maybe it is the relay? Not sure where the relay is. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
That youtube video no longer plays. Can someone tell me what the solution was? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYEYGJfyBw&feature =youtu.be | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Ok nm I got it to play. So hes bypassing the relay all together? will this prevent the voltage system error that I am getting where it is overcharging? Ive looked at the relay and it is not melted or discoloured. Im not sure about the regulator. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Ok I did this mod shown on youtube and no low beams now. Weird. No time to swap it back because I have to leave for work. Hope the high doesnt go out. It will be a long walk. | ||
| Lemonchili_x1 |
That video shows how to bypass the relay harness. It shouldn't have any effect on the headlights, you may have knocked something else at the same time. What it will do is have all three legs of the stator running all the time. If your relay was causing the system voltage error, bypassing the harness like in the video will stop the error and shows you need to replace the relay. I've had a relay fail with no external signs of overheating or melting. If you bypass the harness and are still getting system voltage errors you need to look further - battery, stator, regulator. | ||
| Kevmean |
If your system voltage error is overvoltage it can not be caused by the relay it can only be caused by a faulty VR | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
I replaced the regulator and bulbs today, so far so good hope it gets me to Indy and back. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Made it no issues other then a strong "hot electrics" odor on the trip back. Must have been the new regulator breaking in. I hope it was just breaking in and not burning up. | ||
| Banjo1t |
I have had exactly the same problem, I tried the UNFIX of the wiring harness as described in the Utube video, the bike worked fine for about 20miles, until I got the dreaded battery light come on, just managed to get back home, before the battery died. I have tested the stator output, and it looks like one leg has fried... |
