| Author | Message | ||
     Bluelightning |
Anyone run the Red Shift Cams that Zippers offers? I called and talked to them about putting a set in my 00 X-1. My buddy, which is a Buell tech, and I were going back and forth between the SE Cams and the Andrews N6 cams. Now that I have talked with Zippers, I am wondering about the Red Shift 567 cams. To make the cams, you send them your stock cams, they get them, grind the lobes and add material as necessary, then send them back ready to install. The Red Shift specs are a bit more aggressive than the Andrews N6 cam: Red Shift Int timing @.053": 24/107/49, Duration: 253, Valve Lift: .575, TDC Lift @valve: .210 Exh timing @.053": 54/107/19, Duration: 253, Valve Lift: .575, TDC Lift @valve: .170 Andrews N6 Int timing @.053": 24/50, Duration: 264, Valve Lift: .500, TDC Lift @valve: .241 Exh timing @.053": 56/28, Duration: 264. Valve Lift: .500, TDC Lift @valve: .212 I just want some opinions before buying, Oh cost is around $435 for the Red Shift, and $300 for the Andrews. I have Stage I head work done, and will ge going to stage II in the next few weeks (larger valves). Also, I am running the V&H SSR2 canister, ceramic coated headers, S&S Roller Rockers, Crane adjustable pushrods, Crane HI-4 ignition, and have been converted to a carb (mikuni HSR42). | ||
| Aaron |
N6's are a bolt-in, RS567's are not. That's a major difference ... the N6's are made for a stock head, the 567's are made for a prepared head. Good springs and additional retainer-to-guide clearance are mandatory with the 567's. They'll also likely require clearancing in the cam box, as well as doing something about your tappet pin clearance. We like to see people use a quality lifter, rocker arm, and pushrods with grinds like this, too, but it sounds like you've got most of that. Head preparation in general becomes more critical, as the cams lift well beyond the level that helps an unported head. There are things you can do in the port to optimize performance around that grind's specs. The exhaust system becomes more critical too. Make it all work together. Bottom line, using a grind like a Red Shift is more expense and more trouble. But IMO, it's worth it. It's a good product. If I were you, I'd also think about the 585's with a little more compression. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Aaron, Thanks for the quick reply. I ordered the new spring kit from Zippers yesterday. As I was not sure which cam I wanted, the salesman said the spring kit was the recommended kit for the Red Shift, but would work well with the Andrews cams and new valves. How much will the case need to be modified? As for the top end, I have the Xb Rocker box tops (helps get rid of the puking problem) This should all clear right? Or will I have to do some creative grinding on the rocker boxes? The motor is a 2000, so according to Zippers, my tappet pins should be good to go, I just need to check the clearance. As for the new valves the specs are: Intake specs are as follows: 1.85" head diameter .310" stem diameter 4.44" length - stock drop-in size Exhaust specs are as follows: 1.61" head diameter .309" stem diameter 4.52" length - stock drop-in size These are a little bigger than Stock, but close to what Nallin Stage II valves are. They are performance valves made of EV-8 material, the same stuff used in severe duty valves going 8000+ rpm in automotive applications. How do you think these will work? Karl | ||
| Aaron |
Karl ... case modification won't be too bad. A little clearancing of the bottoms of the lifter bosses will likely be needed. You'll know, just put each cam in and see if it'll spin around without hitting anything. Just use a die grinder. Mask everything off real good first. 2000 and newer motors often have a little issue with the pinion race, too. The lobe may try to run into it. You can chamfer the back side of the lobe a little (thus narrowing the lobe surface) to buy some clearance. I know it sounds weird, but I've done it lots of times and never had an issue. A very famous motor guy told me about that trick years ago. Yes, 2000 and later motors have good tappet pins. We update '99 and older motors to that style when using cams like this. BUT ... you still need to look at pin clearance. When at full lift, make sure you can pull the tappet up (use a magnet) at least .060. Otherwise you'll get contact, which is at a minimum a noise nuisance, and could cause a failure. You can either mill a longer flat into the side of the lifter, or buy a lifter made for high lift cams. You probably won't have a rocker box clearance issue with those boxes, particularly with those rockers. One of the reasons I like those rockers is that they don't give nearly the clearance issues of some of the other brands. Plus, I've never broken one, can't say that for the others. The guy preparing your heads should check and set up retainer to guide as well as valve to valve clearance. Valve to valve probably won't be an issue, though, 567's and 585's are both short on the tdc lifts and you'll likely have plenty of room, even with a 1.850 intake/1.610 exhaust. Also they generally don't have piston to valve clearance issues. But check everything anyway. No comment on the valves, unless I've tested them I don't know how well they flow. The main thing is to make sure your head porter is familiar with them ... the ideal shape for the valve and the ideal shape for the port are not independent of each other. Those lengths are actually a touch shorter than stock, to accommodate the valve job and end up near the same stem protrusion. Pretty standard. Think 585's and 11:1. If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly  | ||
| Bluelightning |
Well, sounds like if I go with that combo, I should be on my way to being that Grizzly. The funny part is that the only reason I am doing this is to go after my brother's softail. He's got a 2001 TC stroked to 103". I've seen it dyno'd at 119 rwhp with 120.2 ft/lb torque, top speed of 161mph! I know I won't get past the hp and torque numbers at 76", but I just want blow by him in the drags and stomp his top end #! Right now he eats me up at the end of 1/4 mile and on top end. I just can't get much past the 145 mark and his torque is outrageous. Hopefully this will get me there and beyond!! | ||
| Blake |
Apparently some guys can make 119 rwhp with a 76" Buell...  Heck, I've personally witnessed a 74" Buell S3 pull 113 rwhp and that was back in 2001 at Cycle-Rama. You might be hard pressed to beat the hog on a top speed run though. The much lower hog/rider is probably significantly more aerodynamic than you on your tallish Buell, which is the major factor affecting peak speed assuming gearing is optimized. | ||
| Bluelightning |
Blake, My Bro's numbers are pure dyno run numbers, so hit 160 number should be lower as he has me by 100 lbs easy (read as big boy) and I'm around 230lbs. Also I have the Odyssey Kolors fairing going on my X-1, so that should help out with the aerodynamics for my big butt to duck behind. That dyno run from the 99 M-2 has MAJOR work done to it, i.e. stage 3 XB heads, 45mm Mikuni, 1250 big bore kit, 585 cams, etc. I still haven't progressed to the big bore kit, or the XB heads. I am still playing with my thunderstorm heads and stock 1200cc cylinders (read as low budget). | ||
| Aaron |
Yeah, I didn't want to say anything, but 160mph on 119hp on an unfaired bike is a mighty stout number, sounded highly unlikely to me. T-storms can be made to work as well as XB's, it just takes adding material and more work. Hell, we sent a set of 4-speed XL heads out recently that flowed like a good XB head, but there was welding involved. Didn't really have much choice, the guy was putting them on an 88 incher and those heads as delivered are *really* bad, couldn't get much out of them. | ||
| Pammy |
forgot what site I was on for a moment...sorry edited by pammy on June 30, 2004 | ||
| Bluelightning |
Well, I guess with the new valves, seals, guides and the head work my plan for the redshift cams will have to be put on hold until the the budget replenishes. I got a set of the Andrews cams to play with for now, so I hope to send my stock X-1 cams in to be redone this winter and be ready for spring.  | ||
| Bluelightning |
Oh, yeah. Thanks Aaron for all the help!!  Next time you make it out this way give me yell we'll meet up for some beers  | ||
| Aaron |
No worries, mate, call me anytime. | ||
| Blake |
Hey Pammy, Didn't mean to play favorites. The following is certainly hard to beat... Please tell Wess "HELL YEAH BAYBEE!!!"   1050 cc, Cycle-Rama Stage 3 Heads, 0.600 Cam, S&S Carburetor, Force Pipe, 10.7 Compression, Mobile Pump Gas Is that beast really a 1050 cc engine? Yikes. | ||
| Blake |
Oh, and since the topic is cams. Can you elaborate on the specific cam grind and whether or not you'd recommend it for street use? Also, what exhaust... Cycle-Rama custom stepped system I assume? | ||
| Vrrod |
Greetings! I'm a new member and have enjoyed your site for months. I've learned a lot from the Bad Web knowledge vault! I wanted to share what I've learned about bolt-in cams recently: some people( ME!) with stock thunderstorm heads want more power than the lightning cams offer. So we consider the N8 or N6... But those aren't truly bolt in cams, I've learned. They have the stock base circle and are roughly 0.500" lift and are therefore designed for the stock valve springs and push rods. But Andrews says "valve travel and piston to valve clearance is recommended on all but V2and N2cams." Why? Because of a parameter called TDC lift. The N6 has more TDC lift than the SE 536; more than the Red Shift 585 even! There are consequences to this as you'll find out below. I bought some N6s, thought they were bolt in( everyone on the BAd Web refers to them as bolt in), gave them to my tech to install, told him they were bolt in and he trusted me. After the uneventful install , firing the bike up certainly wasn't uneventful! After a few seconds of running , the valves touched! My Tech said it sounded awful! He scratched his head, phoned Andrews and lo and behold they said those cams are NOT bolt in! They must be clearanced! Luckily the valves weren't damaged but the heads had to come off and all clearances checked.The valves ended up having to be back cut....hours of labour... the shop gave me a great deal because they felt as bad as me: we should have read the instructions, not trusted that they were "bolt in" just because everyone calls them that; we should have known better! So the N6s and N8s are "bolt in" in the sense that they use stock springs and valve train, but they are definitely NOT bolt in cams! They require a lot of clearance checks. Andrews does not advertise them as bolt in( the N2/V2 is the only one they will truly sell as a bolt in). The N6s incidentally is sold by S&S as their "500" cam. S&S advertises it as : "stock springs but clearancing must be done". How does my bike run? Not bad. The idle is a little too erratic. The engine is soft down low, but I wanted that. I ride a lot of stop and go traffic in hot weather and hated my engine pinging. Getting some extra intake duration was exactly the ticket for my type of riding! And the mid range and top end is little stronger than the lightning cams. Was it worth it? NO! I spent almost half the price of a real head porting job for barely any more power than the Thunderstorm set up I started with. Lesson learned? If you want more power than the Lightning cams offer with the stock Thunderstorm heads save your money for a port and polish job. Then use the your lightning cams or try something more radical! If you can't spend money on a full port and polish for your Thunderstorm, don't waste time(money) on anything other than the lightning cams. Harley/ Buell/ Gary Stippich spent a lot of time finding the best " Bolt-In " cam for that engine! I hope Aaron of Nallin Racing reads this and provides some feedback. Best regards, Vince (Message edited by vrrod on April 17, 2005) (Message edited by vrrod on April 17, 2005) | ||
| Blake |
I'm pretty sure I've seen Aaron advise accurately on the exact issue you raise. I recall him admonishing us to always check valve to piston clearance. Interesting stuff. |
