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Timebandit
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 02:36 am: | 
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JWoody wrote:
"2nd stator from HD. Made it 3,346 miles. Installed the EBR stator and not looking back."
Jason, can you tell us about your riding style & habits? I'd really like to know what kind of riding you're doing to kill a new stator in 3346 miles. I've never seen another stator that's been cooked like that.
It would be helpful to know:
a. did you have the harness update installed?
b. what MPH and RPM is typical for your rides?
c. do you commute and spend a lot of time idling at stoplights?
d. do you ride a lot at sustained MPH and RPM (on the slab)?
e. where do you try to keep the motor's RPM when you're cruising at highway speed?
f. what kind of coolant temps your bike would normally have?
g. what range of ambient air temps you ride in.
anything else that you could tell us about your riding style would help a lot. I've never seen a stator that had thermoplastic flow like yours has. it had to suffer from ridiculously extreme temperatures. nobody else's stator looks as bad as yours. |
Mackja
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 08:48 am: |
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I have had 7 stators in 17,000 miles, should be putting in number 8 shortly, this time I am going to do the rotor swap with EBR, if I did not have an extended warranty I would install the EBR system, but since I am using HD money I will keep replacing the factory stator. It is a pain but now I can tell when it is about to go out, and I get it in the shop before I get stranded, so far so good (knock on wood) I will post up some photos of stator number 7 as soon as I get it replaced, shortly! |
Finedaddy1
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:57 am: |
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Machkja-- I would love to hear your feedback after the rotor swap....17,000 miles and 7 stators wheeeeeew!
I'd say you are a perfect candidate for this mod. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:54 am: |
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My first Buell experience continues to be my 96S1, all these years and 97K miles. In the early years of ownership I had two front pulley failures in short order. The dealer told me that 'my racing' would be covered by warranty. The third time I took the bike to an independent shop, that same pulley has been on for over 70K miles.
My 09CR had it's stator replaced at 2,200 miles, the harness was on from new. The same warranty stator at 17K miles. The clutch weep and thats it.
Everyone talks about parts failures, but no mention of labor failures. Could this be a significant error of omission? |
Jwoody
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:39 pm: |
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It would be helpful to know:
a. did you have the harness update installed?
The Harness update was installed at 3,177 miles on the first stator. When the first stator went it was covered under warranty last fall. I kept the harness in during the life of the 2nd stator. So the stator you have is the warranty stator from HD.
b. what MPH and RPM is typical for your rides?
Speed range varies, but I consistently try to keep the RPM's up past 4.5K no less. I do my best to stay at 5K as much as I can. Weekend ride speeds in the twisties is usually in 3rd-4th gear with RPM's at 5K or better. Rides are typically 4-5 hours. With some riding on the slab to get to those spots.
Weekend rides are typically done 10-15mph over the traffic slow depending on the group I am with.
c. do you commute and spend a lot of time idling at stoplights?
I will admit that I have commuted a bit on the bike. I have put 7,000 miles on her since June 17th of last year. The commute is 52 miles one way and the majority of the trip is a major State Route with a few lights here and there. The usual traffic speed is 65mph but I am typically in the 70-80mph section at 5k RPM or better.
d. do you ride a lot at sustained MPH and RPM (on the slab)?
Yes. Sustained speeds of 70mph+ or better is the norm. Anytime I am sustained at 80-100 she will be in 6th in most cases. The highest I have taken her is 127mph according to the speedo.
e. where do you try to keep the motor's RPM when you're cruising at highway speed?
4.5k-5K
f. what kind of coolant temps your bike would normally have?
Lately during cruising speed she is showing 172F and 166F occasionally when I find cool pockets of air. Today at a few lights she got up to 190F but went back down as soon as I was moving. I think the most I have ever seen was 200F at a stoplight last summer.
g. what range of ambient air temps you ride in.
The lowest has been upper 30's to low 40's. The hottest has been near or at 100F on the Heat Index last summer. Recently its been in the 60's-70's, some humidity but mostly dry air.
anything else that you could tell us about your riding style would help a lot. I've never seen a stator that had thermoplastic flow like yours has. it had to suffer from ridiculously extreme temperatures. nobody else's stator looks as bad as yours.
Sure! This is my first bike ever. I picked her up June 17th 2011 used at 2,258 miles and a week later I took the BRC. I did not use the CR during the BRC, I used their Buells. I won't say I am experienced rider yet, but I know for certain what the 1125 is capable of.
Seeing how the stator was replaced in late September, it made it through part of the mild winter we had here. So the temps could not have gotten too warm, but because of the mild weather we had I rode alot. As you know I have an EBR Stator assembly now, and its been over 1K miles or there abouts.
Some links here to my 2 Thread over on BuellXB.
1st Stator Failure
2nd Stator Failure
-J
(Message edited by JWoody on May 11, 2012)
(Message edited by JWoody on May 11, 2012) |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:09 pm: |
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Here's a picture from your last thread that shows the material that flowed into the stator core. It's that lump of solidified black crud hanging off of the ring between the two bolts, with a big lump near the 3 small holes in the stator core:
You had to be really HOT to get that. What amazes me is that my riding style/conditions are almost identical to yours -- I ride fast on a slab to get to my favorite spot. I go fast, and I keep the RPM at 5000+, which defeats the need for the harness. When riding I'm out for about 3 hours on State Road highways, which are always fast paced with virtually no stops. I'm always leapfrogging over other traffic. When I get to my favorite spot, it's easy to reach triple digits on sustained high speed runs.
Although my stator definitely shows darkening at a rate that's faster than that of most other people, it's nowhere near as bad as yours.
I'm thinking that the sustained duration at high RPM has to play a large role in the problem, for a couple of reasons.
First, it agrees with what the guys at EBR have told me about them seeing the problem occurring under sustained high RPM racing conditions. Second, as Hild's plots show it takes a pretty long time for the stator to reach maximum temps until it reaches the point where the temperature stops climbing (hours). People who are riding at sustained speed/RPM for several hours are transferring lots of heat to the stators and the stators aren't cooling.
I'm thinking that it's the sustained tempearture-time product (area under the temperature-time curve) that is what's killing the stators. So it's no surprise that the people who are taking shorter trips under similar conditions are having less heat-related problems. Their stators don't darken as quickly and they seem to last longer. Since you're someone who typically goes for a 4 hour ride and I'm typically someone who goes for a 3 hour ride, it's no surprise that our stators are getting dark really fast, and that yours are getting dark the fastest.
Thanks for your explanation. I think it really helps to sort through the observations. Hopefully I can get some of the telemetry working soon so that we can get a better handle on this. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 02:57 am: |
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"...People who are riding at sustained speed/RPM for several hours are transferring lots of heat to the stators and the stators aren't cooling. "
When my stator went it was after a long hot group ride starting at 9am and returning at 7pm. From 17 miles out of Portland the CEL came on, I watched the volts drop along the way, it eventually died on a freeway in downtown Portland. The dealer told me the engine was low on oil. I have been adding 3.4 qts Red Line and now Amsoil to her every 1k miles with filter. no puking at all. |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:13 pm: |
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From what I have measured so far, stator temperature stops climbing after about 40 minutes, not hours, but that is with my series regulator and air-cooling rotor. A stock shunt regulator and stock rotor would likely reach maximum temperature faster. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 11:59 pm: |
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it'll be interesting to compare the figures. if the Tmax turns out to be higher with the shunt regulator, as I expect it will, then then the heat generated within the stator will rise higher, and more quickly, with the shunt regulator. just like you said.
i'm not convinced that all of the thermal damage is attributable to an electrical cause. if it were, you'd expect to see the inside and the outside of the coils showing equal amounts of heat damage, but that is not the case. it is obvious that there are two distinct thermal damage gradients in the stator, not one. The series vs. shunt regulator hypothesis fails to explain that observation.
it's time for everyone to start thinking about another failure mode.
(Message edited by timebandit on May 13, 2012) |
Zoolander
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2012 - 02:34 pm: |
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zoolander, 3150 miles, good. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2012 - 04:49 pm: |
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Wow. that's the cleanest, least darkened stator that I've ever seen with 3000+ miles on it. It's hard to believe that it isn't brand new. Do you really have 3000+ miles on that stator? Or is that a picture of a new stator going into a bike that has 3000+ miles? If that stator has 3000+ miles on it already -- which is hard to believe -- I want you to tell us about your riding style. |
Zoolander
| | Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2012 - 06:14 pm: |
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My mistake, it has only 3063 miles on it. Believe it.
I don't ride hard on the street, that's what trackdays are for (CBR600RR). I try to keep the rpms just above 6000 per the recs of the forum for the stator's sake. I don't think I've shifted over 3rd gear yet this year. I don't know what to say.
Looks like I got lucky with the stator but I've had my fair share of VR problems and dealing with H-D. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2012 - 02:02 pm: |
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Every time I look at Zoo's stator pic I keep shaking my head in disbelief. It's really something to look at. Notice how there's barely any detectable change in the color of the epoxy from cream to brown? It looks like an almost-new new stator with minimal time on it.
For comparison, here's a new / zero-hours stator (top), Zoo's 3000+ mile stator (middle), and Yugi's 3000 mile stator (bottom):
Notice that there's almost no detectable color change in the epoxy on Zoo's stator compared to the new stator? It looks almost new. It certainly doesn't look anything like Yugi's stator that has the same mileage.
I've done oven testing on several stator epoxies, and I've learned that within one hour of exposure at 300*F all of the 500*F epoxies I've worked with will undergo the color change to carmel colored (like you can see on Yugi's stator in the 6:00 position). Within a few hours everything turns brown.
Zoo's stator doesn't look like it's been exposed to engine heat for any significant time period. It looks so darned good that it's really hard to believe that it's been through 3000+ hours of exposure to heat. It sure looks like a stator that was put on the bike recently. If his stator really has 3000+ hours on it, we all need to know more about what he's been doing to protect the stator. It certainly doesn't look like his stator has been at 300*F for any significant period of time.
Zoo, if you could answer those questions that I asked JWoody up above, that might help to shed some light on the subject. Link:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=290431&post=2218354#POST2218354 |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2012 - 02:08 pm: |
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Zoo, if you could crop your pic so it isn't so wide, that would help at my end. I don't know if it's causing a problem for anyone else, but the pic is so large that it's making my web browser run the text off of the screen. Thx. |
Zoolander
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2012 - 06:48 pm: |
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Hopefully this cropped pic is better.
Answers to the questions:
a. harness was installed around 1500 miles...can't remember exactly but it's around then.
b. Typical mph ranges upto 80. Typical rpms since the harness install is 6K, before then I'd shift around 3K.
c. I do not normally commute with it. Not much time with stop and go traffic. Mainly just short weekend and evening rides, often times 30 min or less.
d. No, I do not do a lot of Interstate riding.
e. If I am on the Interstate, again, I try to keep the rpms around 6K.
f. I want to say my temps range from 180's to 200.
g. Temps are between 60 - 90. Southern Ohio.
I don't ride very aggressive on the road. Unfortunately, my trips are usually very short at the very end of the day or during the weekend. Life gets in the way.
Time, I get my email alerts first on my iPhone. Pics from the forum don't translate into the emails. I couldn't help but notice in the space where the pic of my stator is, the jpg code reads "zoolander-fake-b.jpg".
I'm not sure what that actually means, but I can't help but think one interpretation may be that you think it's a fake pic. I'm not sure how that benefits me in anyway to do that. just to clarify, my motive isn't deception.
I know you, me, and everyone might be having a hard time finding an explanation for why my stator looks so different, but I posted the pic to try to help. I'm answering the questions trying to help. Treat it as an outlier?
Just presenting my info, I have no good explanation (really wish I did) other than life is full of bell-shaped curves...I just happen to be at the very end of one apparently. |
Samg
| | Posted on Sunday, June 24, 2012 - 10:33 pm: |
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I wonder if zoo has a bad relay and running in single phase mode all the time.. Hence the clean stator... |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 12:04 am: |
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oops, I was trying to tell you that the previous picture was too large and was screwing up the display. Now we have two of pictures that are way too big. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 12:39 am: |
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i don't doubt that your photo is real. i'm just amazed by the data. I think you've posted some information that is really helpful.
quote:Mainly just short weekend and evening rides, often times 30 min or less.
I think that's our answer. some of the other investigators here (hildstrom) have posted data that suggests that it takes quite some time for heat to accumulate in the stator. You don't seem to ride it very long, so less heat accumulates in the stator, you never get to the really high temps, and your stator looks good with the high miles.
compare that to my stator photo back on page 1. i put the harness on at 600 miles, rode the stator for about 4000 miles, always rode at ~5k-9k RPM, for 2.5 to 3 hours every ride.
our harness use, mileage and RPM are pretty much the same, but my ride durations are about 6x longer than yours. my stator is a lot darker, most likely from the extended heating time on my rides.
i think your data has given us another valuable piece to the puzzle -- long rides probably promote stator failure on a rotor that hasn't been oil cooled.
now that i have the oiling rotor, i'll pull my cover off at end of season to see if the darkening process slows down. |
Yugi
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 02:22 am: |
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Here is my current stator with 1300 miles on it.
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Yugi
| | Posted on Monday, June 25, 2012 - 05:30 pm: |
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quote:zoolander, 3150 miles, good.
It looks like brand new, but I see some cracks in epoxy here and there, and there is very light discoloration on some poles. Looks like a couple of hundred miles from others.
(Message edited by yugi on June 25, 2012) |
Nikponcherello
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2012 - 03:11 pm: |
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Nik. 8600 miles (original Stator)
I'd like to note that I hold HD at new level of suck in my heart and soul. This thing almost killed me on the interstate. Junk. |
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