| Author | Message | ||
     Fugitive81 |
ok i have a 09 ever since iv had the bike from new the battery light comes on at lights and idling i took it back to the dealer they did the harness gave it back and it still did it but never really caused an issue so now it starts to get worse a bit so i figured i should start looking for a stator and rotor i bought a used o8 engine and took the stator and rotor and put it in and now its worse on the hyw it will charge 12.4 12.6 and when im stopped down to 11.8 my question is what are the chances both systems are screwed | ||
| Samg |
Remove the harness | ||
| Froggy |
Yes you don't want to use the harness with the 08 setup. | ||
| Timebandit |
A properly functioning harness will make NO DIFFERENCE on charging when you are at idle. It also will make NO DIFFERENCE difference on charging if you give the bike any healthy amount of RPM. The harness relay only activates between 2000 RPM and 4200 RPM. If you're bike isn't charging at idle or above 4200 RPM, then a properly functioning harness isn't your problem. Check the relay to make sure the harness isn't stuck in single-phase mode. If the relay is not a problem then it won't matter if you remove the harness or not. Your problem lies elsewhere. You didn't tell us if you kept the regulator when you switched the other stuff. | ||
| Curve__carver |
TB, you are incorrect. and your description of the harness function is incomplete (per EBR) . And I know you like to say "trust EBR." | ||
| Fugitive81 |
ok thx for the info but how do i check the relay and if i have to take out the harness how i just dont want to be peeling through the wrong parts and not getting anywere thx | ||
| Froggy |
Removal is easy, you literally just unplug it, take it out, and then reconnect the remaining connectors. | ||
| Timebandit |
It's funny that curve_carver accuses me of being wrong on this. I guess he doesn't have sufficient understanding of the control logic of the harness to understand that I don't have to go through all of the operational control criteria to prove that a properly functioning harness can't be the root of his problem. The Turn-Off criteria that I intentionally did not discuss are not relevant, because the original poster has never satisfied the Turn-On criteria to bring the function of the harness into play. D'Oh! My understanding is complete. I was smart enough to leave out those harness control factors that could not possibly be responsible for the original poster's problem, because I don't want to confuse the issue by parroting irrelevant facts. Unfortunately, it looks like someone is bent on bringing irrelevant facts into the discussion that won't help to solve the problem, and that will only serve to confuse the issue. So now we have some explaining to do. I guess some people can have everything spelled out for them in plain english in an email from EBR, and still fail to understand when those factors come into play and when they don't. The FACTS are that in order to meet the TURN-ON criteria for the harness, the first condition that has to be met is a CKP sensor output in the range of 2000 to 4200 RPM. If that condition is never satisfied, then the ECM will never take pin 21 high and the relay will never get the signal to turn the harness on. PERIOD. It doesn't matter if the countdown timer elapses or not, or if the battery voltage is high or low. RPM is a necessary condition for activation, and without RPM in that precisely defined band, the root criteria are never met that are required for the ECM to take pin 21 high and activate the relay. PERIOD. Outside of that RPM band the harness will NEVER activate. That is all of the information that is relevant to the original poster's problem. There are several TURN-OFF criteria that are monitored to assure that the harness does not engage in the expense of over-switching, that the harness doesn't single-phase the stator for too long, or that the harness doesn't single-phase it at a time when single-phasing would compromise the charge state of the battery. These criteria are based upon a) transitioning out of the above-mentioned RPM band for a minimum time duration, b) reaching countdown on a hysteretic timer that limits total duration of excursions into the single-phase mode, and c) an absolute minimum battery voltage threshold. The original poster made it clear that he was having problems with inadequate charging AT IDLE and at HIGH RPM (on the highway). These are BOTH conditions in which the TURN-ON control logic prevents activation of the harness. If the TURN-ON criteria are never met, then the harness isn't part of the problem, and the TURN-OFF critera aren't worth discussing, are they? Smart people know what information to leave out when it's irrelevant to someone's problem. Doing that prevents confusing the issue, which is essentially where we've been led. Fugitive, you don't need to waste your time dicking around in removing the harness. If you're not charging at idle, and if you're not charging at RPM, then the harness CAN NOT be your problem, unless you've got a harness relay that's stuck. Check you harness relay. Replace it if you need to. There are threads about relays. If the relay is good then you can ignore the harness, as the harness isn't the cause of your problems. You still haven't answered that question about the regulator. (Message edited by timebandit on June 18, 2012) | ||
| Dannybuell |
unfix http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBYEYGJfyBw&feature =youtu.be | ||
| Fugitive81 |
yes its the same regulator 09 one with the 08 set up i didnt get the harness with the motor | ||
| Fugitive81 |
oh ya just to be clear the bike is not charging at idle and low rpm but is charging over 4000 rpm but only up to 12.6 but the light stays off but below that its on and dropping fast down to 11.8 and once the engine light came on but once i drove off they both when off thx for the help | ||
| Curve__carver |
Thanks for the very long-winded, but still inaccurate post. It is irresponsible to suggest that the harness will work fine with an 08 charging system for which it was never intended, designed, or tested.Your explanation of the harness operation assumes it will behave the same at the same RPM, which is incorrect. There are multiple factors. A correctly operating harness absolutely can and will affect charging at idle. I assume you will not take my word for it. So please contact EBR. Perhaps they will take the time to correct you. You seem more than willing to dissect the posts of other that you believe are incorrect. Please hold yourself to that same standard. D'oh. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "It is irresponsible to suggest that the harness will work fine with an 08 charging system for which it was never intended, designed, or tested." You have a very poor eye for reading detail, you are still inaccurate, and to top if off, you are now putting words into my mouth. I never said that "the harness will work fine with an 08 charging system" -- you made that up. What I said was that AT IDLE, the ECM does not issue the TURN-ON signal to the harness. You're confusing what is recommended for continuous duty operation with what is necessary to properly diagnose the problem. I never told him to use the harness with a 2008 charging system. I only told him that he didn't have to go through the trouble of removing the harness to properly diagnose the problem in his charging system. What the OP needs to do is to run through the charging system test in the electrical diagnostics manual. My knowledge of the charging system operation has already been verified by Tony and Mike. | ||
| Curve__carver |
I haven't made up anything. You have repeated the same comments multiple times in multiple posts. Perhaps you should speak with them again. | ||
| Timebandit |
This is getting silly. You claimed that I said the following, even though I never said it: curve_carver wrote:
Your representation that I said or suggested any of that is off-base. Maybe you just don't comprehend the difference between what I actually said and what you think I said. Maybe you just want to nitpick. It's not the first time you've done it. Your argument that the 2008 stator has never been tested with the harness is a statement that is made out of ignorance, and it not based upon fact. Nightsky has published experimental data from his 2008 1125 that has demonstrated that at cruising RPM even a 2008 stator that's single-phasing produces enough power to allow regulation and charging of the battery. Your claim that no testing has been performed is false. Instead of arguing, let's look at what's important -- helping Fugitive solve his problem. Fugitive said that he has the harness on his bike and that he didn't want to take it off. I told him that taking it off wouldn't be necessary for anyone to properly diagnose his problem. That statement is true. Any competent diagnostician could properly diagnose the problem with the harness in place. Right now, there are only four possibilities: 1. He has a bad battery. 2. He has a malfunctioning harness relay; 3. He has two stators that aren't working; 4. He has a bad voltage regulator. Option 1, verifying the battery, is the first thing that you have to do when testing a charging system. Let's hope that Fugitive has verified that he's got a good battery. Option 2 is easy to test by swapping the relay. Option 3. Seems less likely. I doubt that he has two bad stators. If there's any doubt, all he needs to do is the AC voltage test to get the answer. Option 4 seems most likely, as he's never changed the regulator and it's the only common denominator in his system that could result in poor voltages at every RPM. Leaving the harness in place will not prevent anyone who is competent from properly determining which of the above conditions is true. Removal of the harness is not necessary for anyone who is competent to reach the correct proper diagnosis. | ||
| Ohsoslow |
question for you fugitive. will you bike charge 14.0 volts at first start up and for a few miles thereafter? that is what mine is doing. seems the stator is going bad on mine, when cold it will put out well above what the elec manual says, go for a ride let it heat soak ride it again and recheck stator output, almost nothing at idle. also TB is correct the harness "upgrade" doesnt care where the voltage is coming from , an 08 system or 09-10 system) it has one job and one job only to supply/not supply all phases of charging depending on engine rpm and other factors. (Message edited by ohsoslow on June 19, 2012) | ||
| Curve__carver |
The solution to fugitive's issue has already been posted twice...by Samg and Danny. | ||
| Froggy |
Timebandit, I have real world testing with the harness on a 08 setup, the dealer accidentally reconnected it after a service, and I started getting the battery light while cruising, but it went out while idle. Disconnecting it (and removing it for good) resolved that. That isn't the same issue that Fugitive is happening, but I can't see any reason to leave it connected with the already low output on the 08 setup. | ||
| Timebandit |
Froggy, I agree with you -- I never recommended that he use the harness with the low output setup. What I said was that removing the stator wasn't necessary to correctly diagnose the problem. Some people know how to analyze data and draw fact based conclusions. Some people don't have those skills, so they spend their time trying to figure out whose opinions they need to rely upon, and then they quote the opinions of other people. Some people just rely on anecdotal experiences and try to extrapolate general truths out of them. Critically analyzing data is far more reliable. The data says what the data says. Understanding the data gets you to the right answer. The facts are that a 2008 stator at 4000 RPM produces >50 VAC output. 50VAC is plenty of voltage to go through rectification and regulation and charge a 12VDC battery. It seems that a lot of people continue to misunderstand what the harness actually does. Many of the falsely believe that the harness changes the AC voltage output of their charging system. It doesn't. The AC voltage output of the stator is defined by it's RPM. Faraday's law. Curve_carver's explanation is a simplistic answer that's based upon relying what other people have told him, not an in-depth understanding based upon engineering knowledge and data analysis. He believes that removing the harness is going to solve all of Fugitive's problems. It isn't going to help. Even if the harness relay is broken, it won't lower the AC output voltage of his stator. The fact that he's got insufficient DC voltage at 4000 RPM clearly means that the battery, stator, or regulator are bad. The harness can't cause that problem. I'm willing to put money on it. | ||
| Baf |
His problem may very well be caused by the harness. If he has a fouled up relay, it could cause the symptoms he describes. The only way to know for sure is to check the stator output before it hits the harness. Bypassing the harness will not hurt in any case. Anyhow, I thought the ECM actively turned the harness ON whenever 3 phases were to be used. No power to relay == single phase operation. | ||
| Craigsmoney |
fugitive, check all the stator wires. Mine were melted together and grounding out on each other right by the regulator plug. I repaired the wires and it has been doing fine ever since. | ||
| Dannybuell |
A painter using a detail brush to paint a wall when a paint roller would be better. I have a pedantic friend whose only method of inquiry is verbose. "Bottom Line Dave" is what his longtime male friends say when he starts talking. Bottom Line, where are the results of all this testing promised us by our self anointed defender of all things electrical? | ||
| Curve__carver |
Interesting analogy Danny. There may be a reason that you don't seek an engineer for repairs a mechanic could accomplish. The reasons may be buried in one of TB's unnecessarily long posts. Fug,Your battery is not fully charged. As TB pointed out, the battery itself could need to be replaced. You are probably seeing 12.4-12.6 on the hwy because your charging system needs to charge your battery which is partially discharged. How long was your hwy ride? Does your voltage slowly climb if you ride on the hwy for more than say 15 solid minutes? I would 1) Disconnect your harness, 2) Fully charge your battery on a charger or tender, 3) go for a nice long ride. | ||
| Timebandit |
It amazes me that so many people continue to misunderstand the data. Clearing up the misconceptions on this board is like walking through a jungle swinging a machete. "His problem may very well be caused by the harness. If he has a fouled up relay, it could cause the symptoms he describes." Although that would be absolutely true at low RPM where the stator produces low voltage, it's not absolutely true above 4000 RPM, where the stator produces high voltage. Not even if the relay is bad. Even if you force the stator into single phase operation by 4000 RPM the 2008 charging system is still producing 50 VAC. That's plenty of voltage to charge a battery. "The only way to know for sure is to check the stator output before it hits the harness. Bypassing the harness will not hurt in any case." You are absolutely right. Directly measuring stator voltage is one of the definitive stator tests that should have been performed by the original poster. The good news is that you don't have to remove the harness to do that, you just unplug the stator from the connector and hook up your multimeter. These threads tend to get started because people don't follow proper diagnostic procedures, and instead expect somebody to provide a clairvoyant answer without knowing the facts. Invariably, people try to make decisions based upon incomplete data and the result is that they provide really poor answers. There is no substitution for collecting the necessary diagnostic data. "Anyhow, I thought the ECM actively turned the harness ON whenever 3 phases were to be used. No power to relay == single phase operation." I tried to upload the PDF for troubleshooting the harness but the board won't take it. Too big. <sigh> | ||
| Timebandit |
> "There may be a reason that you don't seek an engineer for repairs a mechanic could accomplish." unfortunately the mechanics don't have a very good batting average when it comes to getting charging system problem fixed right the first time. | ||
| Fugitive81 |
ohsolow that is whats happening ok today i disconnected the harness i would say there was a small change but still going to 12 .1 no light but it seem to start charging when i rode much sooner i swapped regulators with my friends 08 and there was no changes at all i did tender charge the battery before these tests and it seems to be fine but i order a new one so when that comes i will see were i stand i think im only left with one more thing the stator if the battery is fine i will check the stator tomorrow knowing i know now i would have done thing different but i just thought some guys have this problem so i asked anyway thx for the help by the way i picked the bike up from the mechanics and rode half a day and the thing started going crazy so i was pissed off and wanted to get to the bottom of it | ||
| Timebandit |
what a surprise -- pulling the harness didn't fix the problem. it's too bad you guys wouldn't take the bet when i offered to put money on it. Fuge, you don't need to order a new battery unless you know that your current battery tests bad. pull it out of the bike, put it on a charger overnight, and then take it to a store to have them load test it for you. you have to do a load test to know that the battery is OK. stores like walmart or autozone will do free load tests for you. |
