| Author | Message | ||
     Schwara |
I know nothing about servicing a clutch but I have a feeling I'm getting ready to learn something new about my Uly. I was driving back to Cincy from southern IN tonight when I noticed my RPMs climbing while my speed was slowly going down. I pulled over to the shoulder, shut her down, & did quick walk around to look for anything obviously wrong ... nothing. Started her back up, put her in 1st, & couldn't get over 1 or 2 MPH even @ high RPM. Went back to neutral, back to 1st, no difference. Tried starting in 2, 3, etc. With no difference. I swear I've read about this before but have not found a lot out here so far & also haven't checked the manual yet. It's been a long night & just got in with a lift from family. I'll keep looking 1st thing tomorrow, but if anyone can forward me info or help me start the debug process I would really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. FYI last trans fluid change <5K ago, was planning new fluid @ next oil chance. Also, clutch did not feel different in any way. Felt perfectly normal, but after letting all the way out still no power from the engine. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds like the clutch was slipping. That could either be a worn out clutch, or a misadjusted clutch. ( Or you broke the rear belt, and were pointed downhill at the time.  ) Clutch adjustment is really easy on a Buell, and hasn't changed since 96. So you can scare up the 96 technical manual here on the site and use it, or buy a more current manual. If neither of those work, I can post a summary. What part of Cincy are you in? I'm over in Lebanon, and can help if you get stuck on something. Start with the clutch adjustment, and make sure when you do that the cable moves smothly and lightly and is not binding or broken. If you still have the problem, your clutch is toast (unusual, as these things are TOUGH, but not unheard of). The manual says replacing the clutch pack requires a special tool... I've never tried it on a Buell, but I've done all sorts of dirt bikes and an old Yamaha, and they all said they needed special tools also, and I always managed to figure out a way to do it with stuff already in the garage. | ||
| Schwara |
Thanks Reep. I've got the manual out & realize that I'm already behind on regular clutch maintenance / adjustment. Let's hope that's all it is. I never messed with any of that on previous bikes mainly because I put a lot less miles on & just also let the shop do most of my maintenance. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the reply. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It's a clever little self adjusting mechanism... It's not very obvious what to do by looking at it, but if you just follow the manual it's *really* easy. | ||
| Schwara |
No joy. Did my 1st regular clutch maintenance. It was way out. I should have checked it when I bought the bike, but obviously didn't. Anyway, I ran through the instructions in the manual & like I said it was way out of adjustment. That made me hopeful that was my problem. I put her all back together & my clutch was the tightest clutch I had ever operated. I checked the manual again & realized I had set the play in the cable based on the wrong bike. I loosened it up to the Uly spec & the clutch felt better but still pretty tight. Well the engine still doesn't engage. I ran out of time today, but will try to tear her back open in the next day or so for a closer look. I'm now hoping it is the clutch cable or the connection. Hopefully nothing more major, but we'll see. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hmmm. This is from memory, so confirm anything that disagrees with the manual... 1) Loosen cable so lever flops around with no resistance for at least 1/2 it's travel. 2) Remove derby cover screws (to in a circle and do about 3 turns at a time until they are loose, or the cover can get crooked and bind a screw, at least on a tuber). 3) Remove the little spring / lock thingy. 4) Turn the screw in there counterclockwise so its loose. 5) Squeeze and release the lever 5 times. 6) Turn the screw clockwise until you just barely feel it start to get some resistance. 7) Turn that screw back about 1/4 turn. 8) Put the spring loaded plate thingy back in. 9) Put the derby cover back on. 10) Adjust the clutch cable such that it has maybe 1/4 inch of travel at the tip before you feel it start to pull against the springs in the clutch. | ||
| Schwara |
You have a much better memory than I do. Luckily I do have both paper and electronic reminders. From the 09 XB manual pages 1-28 & 1-29: ADJUSTMENT If clutch slips under load or drags when released, first check control cable adjustment. If cable adjustment is within specifications, adjust clutch mechanism as described below. When necessary, lubricate cable with LUBIT-8 TUFOIL® CHAIN AND CABLE LUBE (Part No. HD-94968-85TV). 1. Position the vehicle upright and level. This will prevent lubricant from draining out when clutch inspection cover is removed. 2. See Figure 1-27. Slide rubber boot (1) upward to expose adjuster mechanism. Loosen jam nut (3) from adjuster (4). Turn adjuster to shorten cable housing until there is a large amount of free play at clutch hand lever. 3. See Figure 1-25. Remove three fasteners and washers from clutch inspection cover. Remove clutch inspection cover and gasket from primary cover. 4. See Figure 1-28. Remove spring (1) and lockplate (2). Using a flat tip screwdriver, turn adjusting screw (3) counterclockwise until it lightly bottoms. 5. Turn adjusting screw clockwise 1/4-1/2 turn. Install lockplate and spring on adjusting screw flats. If hex on lockplate does not align with recess in outer ramp, rotate adjusting screw clockwise until it aligns. NOTES • All Ulysses models now incorporate a hook for the clutch cable into the handlebar assembly. The purpose of this hook is to control the routing of the clutch cable so it will not interfere with the instrument cluster mounted to the front of the upper fork clamp. • All cable adjustments for the Ulysses models are to be performed with the clutch cable free from the handlebar hook. Once the measurement has been attained you will need to route the cable through the hook. • Spring installs on outboard side of hex lockplate. 6. Squeeze clutch hand lever to maximum limit three times. This sets the ball and ramp mechanism. Adjust as follows: a. See Figure 1-29. Pull ferrule (end of cable housing) away from bracket. Gap between ferrule and bracket should be 0.0625-0.125 in. (1.6-3.2 mm). b. On Ulysses models, gap between ferrule and bracket should be 0.140-0.180 in. (3.6-4.6 mm). c. See Figure 1-27. Set free play by turning adjuster (4). d. Tighten jam nut (3) against adjuster (4). e. Slide boot (1) over cable adjuster mechanism. 7. Change or add transmission fluid if necessary. NOTE Each time the clutch inspection cover is removed, the gasket must be replaced. 8. See Figure 1-25. Install clutch inspection cover and new gasket using three fasteners and washers and tighten to 84-108 in-lbs (9.5-12 Nm). I'll go back through the process again to make sure I didn't screw something up & I'll also pay closer attention to the cable operation and connection prior to buttoning everything up. Does anyone know if the newer teflon cable was standard in 09 or is there an easy way that I can tell? I don't want to lubricate incorrectly depending on the cable I have, although I'm assuming mine is not the teflon version based on the HD lubrication note. | ||
| Al_lighton |
We've had some emails, but I'll write stuff here for the benefit of others that may be wondering what's going on... First, a little bit about the driveline: If the engine is running, the rotor attached to the flywheel is spinning, which means the primary chain is spinning, which means the clutch basket is spinning. Short of sheared splines, you can pretty much assume your clutch basket is spinning. When the clutch is not disengaged and the clutch pack is operating properly, if the basket is spinning, the hub is also spinning. Short of sheared splines in the hub, if the hub is spinning, the countershaft is spinning. If the bike is in neutral, the countershaft and mainshaft are uncoupled. If you're in any gear, they are coupled by the selected gear ratio. So while in gear, if the countershaft is spinning, the mainshaft is spinning. If the mainshaft is spinning, and the 5th gear is intact, the output shaft is spinning. Assuming that the splines on the final drive sprocket are intact, the drive pulley is spinning. If the belt is intact, then the rear wheel is driven. OK, so that's the power transmission path. SOMEWHERE in your path, the coupling isn't occurring. In our email discussions, we focused on the clutch as the failure point. But the way you've described it, it seems too digital to be a clutch failure. Clutches fail more gracefully than that generally, and even a wasted clutch will provide a little bit of drive to the rear wheel. It seems yours went from working to not working fairly instantaneously. Looking at that entire driveline, and knowing where failures have occurred, my guess is that your drive pulley has sheared the splines. It's hardly unheard of, and the behavior that you've experiences would be more consistent with a hard coupling failure than a soft coupling failure. I've not heard of clutch hub spline failures, or rotor drive failures (other than bolt or nut loosening). I'm not saying the can't occur, I just don't have any experience with that. Pull your pulley cover. Put it in gear. Roll the bike, watch the pulley spin relative to the shaft it is on. If the pulley spins but the shaft doesn't, there's your culprit. 5470, here: http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/5470.html , we have a few in stock. Al | ||
| Al_lighton |
One other thing...we discussed it in emails but it bears mentioning here: FORMULA PLUS!!!! There is just no good reason (other than that it says HD on the label, which, given what they did to Buell, seems reason enough...but I digress) to run anything else. I don't think it is a coincidence that HD/Buell introduced the Formula Plus in the same year (2006) that they debuted both the helical gears in the tranny AND the lower force clutch spring in the clutch. Those two changes really have conflicting requirements. Straight cut spur gears pretty much have a rolling contact. Helical gears have a hybrid rolling/sliding contact, and want a slicker fluid. But the 04-05 clutches in XB12s were real He-man clutches prone to creating carpal tunnel syndrome and/or Popeye forearms. They lowered the force of the clutch spring in 2006, and with that, created the potential for much more clutch slippage, especially if the wrong friction modifier package in the fluid is used. Formula Plus is a very sticky fluid, and these lighter spring clutches benefit from that. But the helical gears seem to like the stuff as well, so there is something to the Formula Plus that isn't in your basic engine oil. Me, it's all I'll run in the primary case on any of my Buells now. Another anecdote: I had one of the XBRRs for my track bike for a while after HD shut down Buell (since replaced by an 1125R from EBR). It was in great shape when I bought it, but needed some minor repairs in the primary drive (XBRRs are BRUTAL on the primary drive). In the course of obtaining the parts from EBR, I had some email discussions with Erik about the fluids to use. The owners manual for the XBRR of course said to run nothing but HD Oils. I asked Erik (since he was now unshackled from the irons of the MoCo) what HE would run in the primary of the XBRR, given it's history with destroying components in there. His answer was Formula +, and specifically because it gave better clutch hookup than anything else. Clutch hookup on the 150+HP XBRR was a big deal, and it even had a He-man clutch spring. One other note: If you get Barnett clutch plates, they say NOT to run Formula Plus. I asked their Tech department about that, they said it's fine to run it. But the reason that they said not to is that it likes to stick cold plates together with a vengeance, making it very difficult to roll a cold bike in gear with the clutch in. My solution: Put the freakin bike in neutral if you need to roll it. Once warmed up, it isn't a big deal. Al | ||
| Schwara |
Thanks a lot Al ... and Bill. I'll keep in touch as I dive deeper into it. Per your recommendation, I will only run Formula+ from here on out. Is there anything more I can/should do to get the current fluid out besides getting her up to temp and doing a couple of fluid changes over time? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Let me know if I can help... My starter solenoid is weak, so my primary will be apart soon also. | ||
| Al_lighton |
Don't worry about a little bit of the old stuff hanging around in there, it won't hurt anything. The primary takes a quart of fluid. If the cover has been removed, it'll take a whole quart. However, if it has just been drained, it'll only take 30 ounces or so. Use the clutch spring as a guide per the manual. | ||
| Schwara |
Finished clutch adjustment ... 2nd time around. Lubed the clutch cable with HD lube and checked operation with inspection cover off. Also changed out the Mobil 1 V-twin 20-50 that was in the primary with Formula+. Old fluid smelled a little bad (sort of burnt maybe?) and was dark. I also found a few little metal shavings on the plug magnet. Got her out on the street and the engine did engage ... some. Still didn't feel normal, but at least there was something. I heard noises coming from the primary that I can't recall ever hearing before and the bike seemed like it slowly lost power. Got up to about 20 mph and then it slowly went back down to 10 as I went up the tiny incline of my street. I tried once or twice starting from stop and also shifted to 2nd. Heard the strange noise every time I was letting back out on the clutch. Definitely not normal. I parked her and put it in 1st. Then tried to push it to look at the pulley per Al's suggestion. Pulley & shaft turned together and strangely enough it let me keep pushing it ... even though it was in 1st ... no resistance. Put it in 2nd (supposedly) and could still push it as if it was in neutral. I assume this means that the clutch is not engaging correctly ... maybe the noise I was hearing?? | ||
| Schwara |
Seems to me like this says it is time to go ahead and order the clutch pack. Any thoughts on other possibilities based on the latest experience? Ironically, my fork started weeping again this afternoon as well. I must have done something to make her mad at me. | ||
| Al_lighton |
I concur...time for the clutch pack and looks like fork parts too. | ||
| Schwara |
Time for an update ... Part 1. Short story long, someone volunteered to take my bike to a shop in Southern IN while I was on vacation. I had all the parts for the clutch pack service (thanks Al) sitting on the shelf waiting for me to get to it. I thought, sure that would be cool to get back from vacation with a bike that was up and going just waiting on my return. The guy in Madison IN (Jerry Jackson @ Midtown Motors) seems like a nice guys with knowledge of Harleys & Buells ... being a fellow Bueller himself. Once he got Penny opened up he told me that there were some other problems besides what I thought based on my investigation so far. Apparently the AL clutch hub (37898-02) was no longer connected to steel shaft. They are supposed to have a full time positive connection but basically the AL on the hub @ the connection was shredded. I spoke with Al who indicted that while he could envision this happening, had never heard of a failure like this. I love to break new ground ... not really. So now I have the clutch hub, needle bearing (9214), race (37892-02), and a couple of retaining rings (37908-90 & 37909-90) that are going to be changed out in addition to the clutch pack & various seals. With any luck that will be happening today. I'll give Jerry a call later today to see if the extra parts got there OK, and check on the progress. I'll also see if I can get a hold of the old stuff to post some pics after she's up and running and back home again. On a side note, I just saw another thread earlier today describing an odd behavior & I'm hoping it isn't the same thing I saw from time to time a little while back. It had never occurred to me that this might have been related to my eventual clutch failure ... but maybe it was. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/680330.html |
