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Two_seasons
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 08:32 pm: | 
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Congrats on your new engine Fitz. I would beg some money off someone IIWY to do the stator NOW. As Timebandit said, nothing good will come of waiting, as the more miles you put on it will surely tear it up.
Clarification on my last post above. Attorney said anything I show others using MY BIKE ONLY as reference would be ok. Other Buellers would have to wrench on their own bikes. I can't touch 'em myself.
By the way, called Auto Zone about 300 ft/lb torque wrench. Only up to 250 is all they loan. I may be able to borrow one somewhere. |
Fitz1125
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 08:42 pm: |
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Yeah, it just ain't gonna happen. LOL. On the other hand, it won't get much mileage before it does happen. Worst case scenario, it gets 600 miles or so with sub-optimal cooling. |
Boogiman1981
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 08:55 pm: |
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Get a torque multiplier. When I redo my rotor nut later this spring/summer going to borrow dads 4x multiplier and use a 250lgft max set to 75 |
Fitz1125
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 08:57 pm: |
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Regarding the torque wrench. I'd be willing to bet the auto hobby shop on my military post will have a 300 ft lb torque wrench. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 09:07 pm: |
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I had a similar thought ... so I looked at torque multipliers at the snap on truck yesterday. You don't want to know what they cost. |
Boogiman1981
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2012 - 09:27 pm: |
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Lol bandit notice I said borrow dad is an ASE Master tech. Has literally tons of 'precious metal' |
Cravacor
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 11:31 am: |
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Timebandit's earlier post states, in effect, in all seriousness the application of the correct thread locker is not a big deal. I agree, however, it is a defect in materials or workmanship and BMC should rectify it. I am a well experienced mechanic, I have lots of tools, etc., etc. But, I do not own a 300 ft lb torque wrench. I don't own anything that is six feet long and stiff enough to use as a DIY torque wrench, furthermore, I have little interest in spending my time and resources to correct BMC's defective materials/workmanship. I have spent long enough in the "dirty arts" to know, full well, that manufacturers are all to happy to play the numbers and do nothing to rectify defects proactively. The problem here is compounded because BMC no longer sells motorcycles and has little incentive to stand behind their product. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 04:53 pm: |
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"Timebandit's earlier post states, in effect, in all seriousness the application of the correct thread locker is not a big deal."
I'm not sure which post you're referring to, but if that's actually what my earlier post states, then I must have been totally ineffective in getting the point across -- that is exactly the opposite of how I interpret the data. Let me give it another shot:
We have it from an "anonymous" source that if you don't follow the new 2010 torque/threadlocker specifications, that you're going to be writing a big check for repairs when all hell breaks loose:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=290431&post=2158981#POST2158981
To try to put this into perspective, I'll cut and paste my last post in an associated thread:
Take a look at the data sheet for the Loctite 648 that I posted in Fitz's motor thread. It shows us that the strength of the threadlocker diminishes as a function of temperature. The aging tests show that at 150*C/300*F the threadlocker is stable over time, but that at 180*C/350*F the threadlocker fails in a time dependent fashion. Within 1000 hours of aging at 350*F, the threadlocker has lost 60% of it's bonding power. And it continues to diminish from that point onward. By the time that you get to 4000 hours you're only left with 25% of the original threadlocker's bonding strength. When looking at the graph, if you assume that you ride at an average of 60 mph, then hours are equal to miles. This is clearly a recipe for disaster. It doesn't surprise me that rotor nuts are failing.
What this tells me is that if your bike [stator] is running at 300*F you may be OK, but if it's been running at 350*F for a long time then you may be happy about your stator rewind, but you're still at risk for suffering threadlocker failure. What if your temp is somewhere in between? We have no data to answer that question, but we can assume that a temperature between 300*F and 350*F is going to result in a curve that's in between the red and blue curves on the plot. If the bike's [threadlocker's] stock temperature curve is anything less than a horizontal line, then we're in trouble. Knowing where we fall on that curve is critical information.
It would really help to know the normal operating temperature of the stator, for several reasons. First, we need to know how hot the stator gets under normal operating conditions to really understand how much the temperature reduction will prolong stator life. Second, we need to know how hot the stator gets to get a better idea of the threadlocking failure problem.
Right now all we know is that Hilde is at about 300*F after his mods, which corresponds to the 150*C curve in the data sheet. We don't know how hot his bike got before, and whether it was above 350*F/180*C or below that. That's critical information to know if you care about the rotor nut failures or about stator life.
It's important to note that:
a. the old threadlocker fails somewhere between 300-350*F;
b. with a series regulator that's intended to lower stator temperature, the stator is operating at 300*F;
c. with a shunt regulator the stator may well have been operating above 300*F. We just don't know yet. If the stator's standard operating temperature is greater than 300*F, then we have to worry about temps that may have been encroaching into the failure zone for Loctite 648.
d. Loctite 272 is good to 450*F in extended duration. It's clearly a better choice.
IMO the choice of threadlocker matters. A lot. The guys who really know must think so to, because there have been "anonymous" warnings and out of warranty motor replacements.
(Message edited by timebandit on April 18, 2012) |
Cravacor
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 05:24 pm: |
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When I say "no big deal" I mean the procedure of applying the correct thread locker , the way I understand you to say, which I agree with.
I certainly appreciate , and am chagrined by, the need to replace the thread locker. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 05:36 pm: |
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Cravacor, how much do you weigh?
Go to AutoZone and buy a 1/2 inch drive, 2 foot long breaker bar. The kind without the wratchet, just the little square post. Maybe $15.
Plug your weight (w) into this equation and calculate D:
(300/w) * 12 = D.
Stand on said breaker bar with the ball of your foot, with your foot centered on a line exactly D inches from the center of the head of the breaker bar. If you want to be REALLY precise, create a loop of rope, tape it to said breaker bar at exactly D inches from the center of the head, and stand in that loop to tighten the nut. Lower your weight slowly, don't bounce.
I betcha a 6 pack that gets you within 5%, which is probably 3x the tolerance you actually need.
(If you weigh less than 150 pounds, get a longer breaker bar, or recruit a fat guy like me.  )
(Message edited by reepicheep on April 18, 2012)
(Message edited by reepicheep on April 18, 2012) |
Fitz1125
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 08:21 pm: |
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so for a 300 lb dude, i'd put a rope with loop at 12 inches down on the bar and do it? seems legit. LOL
Does this actually work>? |
Froggy
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 08:32 pm: |
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quote:Does this actually work
Yep. According to the Wikipedia entry for Food-Pound, "It is the energy transferred on applying a force of one pound-force (lbf) through a displacement of one foot."
So you would need 300 pounds of force at one foot, or 150 at two feet.
Reepi, I never knew that kind of breaker bar existed, I just picked one up, I figured it would be good to have and would be less abuse on my ratcheting socket wrenches for dealing with things like corroded axles. It was about $15 on ebay, not sure if it is Chinajunk, but it isn't something I will need regularly so as long as it doesn't break on my first use it is good enough for me. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:39 pm: |
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Cravacor, sorry ... I misunderstood what you meant.
Reep's torque trick is spot-on accurate -- that's exactly how moment of torque calculations are made. The key is that the method is most accurate as long as the breaker bar is horizontal. If the breaker bar is not horizontal, then the torque is effectively reduced in proportion to the angle by which the breaker bar deviates from horizontal, and this becomes a high-school trig problem. The good news is that as long as you're close to horizontal there's nothing to worry about.
I *really* like the idea of the tape/rope loop for adding precision to the weight application by a fat man on a short bar. I'm going to remember that one!
To minimize error, I opted to use a long torque arm and a low, accurately measurable weight. I used a 25" breaker bar that had a 6-foot length of steel tubing slipped over it, and I added 50-lb of weight to the end by pouring a 50-lb bag of sand into a drywall mud bucket whose handle was duct taped to the tubing.
6 feet x 50 lb = 300 ft-lb.
Then I decided that my method was too ghetto, so I went out and bought the snap-on wrench. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:44 pm: |
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Sure it will work. Foot pounds are foot pounds, and its a static load. The question is how accurate it is, and it seems like you could get it very accurate to me (just don't lie about your weight! ).
Mines different than this one, but might as well be the same.
$9 at Harbor Freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-drive-18-breaker-b ar-67932.html
Like you say Froggy, perfect for axles, and use with Big *&*&^&*( hammers. The worst thing I ever did to it was getting the swingarm pivot out of a KLR-250 parts bike. That was NOT pretty! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2012 - 10:46 pm: |
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When it comes to tools, I'm all about redneck. I grew up in farm country... ! |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 02:22 am: |
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If you're going to go with HF, then you might as well buy the 25" breaker bar for $9.99 instead of the 18" breaker bar for $9.99. That's what I did. It gives you added leverage so you may not need to recruit a fat guy:
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-drive-25-breaker-b ar-67933.html
I used the HF 25" bar to do my rotor swap. The price sure is right, but I think it's kinda flimsy. I don't really trust it anywhere near as much as I trust a Craftsman breaker bar, or any other quality breaker bar. The others are made a LOT better. The HF bar just feels cheap and flimsy.
The HF bar worked OK for my 1125 project, but it didn't inspire confidence that it wasn't going to break. In other words, I expected it to break and I was surprised that it didn't. That hex bolt pivot just feels loose, compared to the Craftsman, which feels nice and tight. The HF bar is loose, with a lot of wobble in the head. that little hex bolt that holds it together feels like it's going to snap when you put a lot of torque on it. Although it worked OK for the bike, there's no way I'd trust it to take apart axles/hubs on my 1-ton truck. I'm going to end up buying something a lot more expensive when the time comes.
The HF breaker was a great deal for $10 if you're looking for a single use item, but I don't have confidence in it for the long haul. The only reason I bought it was because I needed the 25" length to remove the rotor nut. The comparable Craftsman cost $25 on sale and is much more confidence inspiring, but it's only 18" long, which means you have to be a lot fatter to use it. 
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-1-2-in-dr-18-in-fle x-handle/p-00944202000P
The real problem is that the nice, long, tight fitting breaker bars that will last under the real heavy jobs are a LOT more expensive. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 08:56 am: |
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Mine is a 24" one that I probably got from AutoZone, it had been kicking around the tool box for a long time. I like it, because its tight and strong, and will *just* fit in my "portable" Craftsman 3 drawer rally tool box. I have to fold the 1/2" drive thingy over first. They are nice for removing lug nuts on the car when I need to pull a tire as well.
Being fat, I don't need the extra 6 inches. If anyone needs a mark one calibrated gravity actuated force generator, I'll stand on a wrench for a beer. |
Timebandit
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 01:35 pm: |
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I've occasionally had to buy hand tools at AutoZone to fabricate a custom tool in the middle of a job. I was always pleasantly surprised at the quality vs. cost. Better than HF, IMO.
Hijack: For everyone who owns a late model Chrysler and has loose steering (they all do): I was rebuilding the steering box/bushings on a late model Concorde, and needed to remove a pair of 22mm bolts on the steering box that had really short heads. I couldn't grab them with my Craftsman box wrenches, which kept slipping off, and there wasn't enough room between the intake manifold and the steering box on the firewall to go after them with a socket.
The ultimate tool for this job is the Snap-On "High Performance" box wrench, but I was in the middle of the job and didn't have one, so I bought a GreatNeck socket and ground it down until the business end was only about 5/16 deep. That made the socket short enough to fit in the space. Worked like a charm.
The job cost me $5 for the single use tool, $12 for Moog bushings and 4 hours of my time. Dealer wanted $1200.
"Honey, see how much money I saved us? Now we can afford to buy that 300 ft-lb torque wrench." |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 01:56 pm: |
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"Honey, see how much money I saved us? Now we can afford to buy that 300 ft-lb torque wrench."
That's how I get away with it  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, April 19, 2012 - 02:08 pm: |
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I just got a metal blade for the bandsaw, which opens up all SORTS of new "inappropriate modifications of tool" opportunities.
I made a nice C shaped 18" long 12mm box end wrench to help a buddy get the exhaust off a 1978 Porsche 911. God Bless Oxy Acetylene (it cuts! it bends! it welds!). |
Zac4mac
| | Posted on Friday, April 20, 2012 - 11:01 pm: |
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I have a 7/8" combo wrench I carry in Loretta's "trunk".
Y'all know how small that is, so I used my bandsaw...
The 2 pieces are held together by a piece of thick-wall aluminum tubing, smashed into an oval.
I love making special use tools...
Z |
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