| Author | Message | ||
     Davegess |
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| Kenm123t |
Jaimec You may be going in the hole! What happened when the Warden in Shawshank redemption was called obtuse  | ||
| Davegess |
Superbike planet has a decent story comparing the state of MotoGP to what has happened in F1 cars. Relevant to this discussion. http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Dec/111208crtf ormula.htm | ||
| Blake |
Nothing new in that article that I can see. Some misleading commentary. The Red Bull team not a factory prototype engine effort? It absolutely is. Which street car engines do F1 machines use? So going to 800cc was a mistake. Agreed? Solution is to return to the liter limit. Okay, institute claiming rules too. But like F1, keep the prototype racing machines. "Apples to oranges"? I think that is an accurate observation. | ||
| Davegess |
It may be a "factory" engine but it not a pure prototype as it is built to a price the customer is willing to pay. And a much lower price than was being spent, in inflation adjusted terms, than the factories were spending before. It is not an unlimited racing class anymore and has not been for at least a decade. Tight controls on technology are enforced. Most rules are aimed at improving the show not the technology. This is what makes it instructive. | ||
| Blake |
Wow! Outstanding article on the whole CRT issue. I learned a lot from it. http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/11/22/crt _faq_everything_you_always_wanted_to_.html | ||
| Blake |
F1 "not an unlimited racing class"... As with MotoGP, correct? After reading that article, it seems clear that the main issue was that the subsidizing of satellite teams was more giving a bunch of money to the factories, which were charging exorbitantly for the leases. Politics. In the end the effect appears slated to be larger grids, but with no affect whatsoever on competition for race wins. Going to 800cc was the biggest goof ever for MotoGP. Had they left the displacement alone, they may well have avoided all this confusion in the first place. WCM must be a bit irritated. Has there ever been such a wild reversal in racing rules in any premiere class of world championship racing? It leaves one with the perception that the cooks in the kitchen really have no idea what they are doing. I'd still like to see actual business data for the past decade of MotoGP, TV viewership, TV ad revenue, race attendance revenue, etc. | ||
| Blake |
>>> It may be a "factory" engine but it not a pure prototype as it is built to a price the customer is willing to pay I very much doubt that. The marketing value to the engine constructor remains significant, so it remains a sport in which the engine manufacturers remain highly compelled to invest significant shares of their marketing budget. "Not a pure prototype"? They aren't made from street car engines, are they? Did F1 engine technology diminish with the new claiming rules? | ||
| Datsaxman |
Random thoughts... Sheesh... F1 has not been "pure prototypes" for some time now. Spec ECU, fixed engine displacement and cylinder dimensions, very narrow dimension ranges for every aspect of the car, weight minimum, fuel capacity, spec tires, etc. Yes, F1 technology is greatly diminished from the innovative levels that it was once at. Remember the 6-wheel Tyrrell? OMG!! The CRT thing for MotoGP is so weird...successful Claiming Rule racing historically holds all entrants to the same rules. Period. This is too strange. And CR Team status is decided on not by adherence to the rules, but by agreement between FOUR political entities? Strange times to be sure. I would like to see more variety, that's for sure. Having a CR makes sense for keeping costs down, but only if it applies to all. And gets used. Having a sliding minimum weight for things like cylinder count and number of gears works with the CR to even the playing field a bit. So does fuel allocation. I for one am tired of seeing one approach only. I just don't see this being appealing. And yes, I have shirts with desmo valvetrains on them and bevel gears and two stroke port diagrams...but none with faces of riders. Some folks DO go for the tech. Think of it this way: Lots of folks go for the personalities, the glam, the noise...but ALL of the gearheads are there. Well, except when we are bored with the shenanigans. Like the current situation. Sheesh again. | ||
| Trojan |
After reading that article, it seems clear that the main issue was that the subsidizing of satellite teams was more giving a bunch of money to the factories, which were charging exorbitantly for the leases. Politics. It is more complex even than that. Dorna had to subsidise 'satellite' teams so that they could pay the factory for lease bikes that were not as good aas the factory bikes. In effect Dorna were paying the factories to take part, and allowed them to take over the rule making structure so that the factories were the sole beneficieries for years. The 800cc rule was brought in at the insistence of the factories, or actually Honda as they are the driving force behind the MSMA. For some time Dorna, teams and others involbved in the sport have been pleading with the factories to try and cut costs and make it easier for smaller teams to compete. Kenny Roberts tried to get them to lease engines to smaller teams years ago remember. The factories have ignored these pleas right up to the point of the series virtually collapsing, and have had more than enough chance to save it before now. Now the rulebook should be firmly taken away from Honda/Yamaha and given back to the organisers. The factories should either follow the new CRT rules or leave, simple. The Red Bull team not a factory prototype engine effort? It absolutely is. I think you miss the point of the article. 5 years ago there were 'proper' factory car manufacturer teams in F1 from Toyota, Honda, Ferrari, BMW, Mercedes, Renault and to a smaller extent McLaren. Red Bull are a privately owned and funded team that leases engines from a manufacturer, so are NOT a factory team. F1 changed drastically a couple of years ago when most of the manufacturers pulled out (or sold their teams to privateers), so now there is only Ferrari, Mercedes and Mclaren left (Renault is NOT a factory team any longer but retained the name for this year). All the otehr teams involved are privateer sponsored teams that have to buy or lease engines from manufacturers and have no connection beyond that to a car maker. CRT could run in a very similar way in that the factories could build special engines that they sell/lease to private teams. The CRT rules allow for almost any source of engines and not just production based units, so it is entirely possible that Honda or Yamaha could lease their RC13V/M1 engine to a privateer team under CRT rules. This would mean the factories are still involved but without the mega buck factory bikes and spiralling costs. | ||
| Davegess |
My point is not so much that one is prototype and one isn't but mostly that FI, like all racing series is mostly concerned about "the show". The days of competition for the sake of proving who is the best builder of cars is long past. The entire point of F1 is to make money. If Bernie thought he could make more by putting the drivers in clown cars he would do it. F1 is fortunate that they moved in this direction while they we very popular, with huge money available to make the change. Bernie recognized that the TV audience and the countries paying the sanction fees, most race tracks can't hope to recover what he charges, who not be willing to continue if the racing continued to deteriorate. It was terrible. The number of passes in a season would take place in one lap of an AMA flat track race. The pole winner won teh race unless something broke. Cars couldn't even run close to each other because the aero stuff was so extreme. It was the absolute most boring racing I have ever seen. They fixed it. The cars still seem very high tech even though they are rigidly controlled now and the racing is very good. Back in the good old days of the 50's, 60's and 70's we all "watched" the races in print. Almost no one actually saw a race; a few hundred thousand folks got out to the national GP race but most of us followed it in print. Even the fans in the stands saw a tiny fraction of each race. The races did not have to be very exciting to keep the fans interested. Hell you make a baseball game seat of the pants exciting in print! And off the point entirely; There is so little relation between F1 and real cars that it is almost as silly as NASCAR being 'stock" cars. At least MotoGP bikes seem like "normal" bikes. You can imagine taking one for a spin down your favorite road. A F1 car? No way! | ||
| 46champ |
A lot of people have been saying that the CR teams won't be competitive with the factory teams. I beg to differ the CR teams get 23L of fuel vs the 21L the factory prototypes get. Somewhere I read that Dorna has said if that isn't enough they will bump them to 25L. The surest way to get more horsepower is to burn more gas. | ||
| Jaimec |
Nobody explains things better than Dennis Noyes (IMHO): http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-the- aprilia-heard-round-the-world/ | ||
| Jaimec |
And for what appears to be the opposing view: http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/817/11818/Motorcycle -Article/How-Will-CRT-Work-in-MotoGP-.aspx | ||
| Svh |
Dave- I would love to take an F1 car for a spin on a road. Sign me up! | ||
| Trojan |
Nicky Hayden's bad luck continues......first ride back from his broken hand at the final 2011 MotoGP round (which meant missing end of season tests) he has broken his shoulder and a couple of ribs in a dirt track accident  Could mean he misses the first 2012 test days at Sepang now too.... | ||
| Slaughter |
If you want to take a F1 car for a spin on a road - watch Top Gear's episode in which Hammond ATTEMPTS to get two laps in the 2005 Renault R25 F1 car. Just starting out of the pits became comical - a half dozen stalls just in attempting to get rolling. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3298341/richard_hamm ond_drives_f1_renault_r25_car_at_silverstone_top_g ear_bbc_autos/ Sounds easy but these are thoroughbreds, not ride ponies. | ||
| Trojan |
You do have to remember though that Richard Hammond is a blithering idiot! How he got a job driving on a motoring programme never ceases to amaze me!! | ||
| Slaughter |
(oops - my bad, I don't get to see Top Gear except online) | ||
| Jaimec |
Geez, first Hayden, now Dovi. They're dropping like flies and the PRE-season hasn't even started! http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/839/11911/Motorcycle -Article/Andrea-Dovizioso-Breaks-Collarbone-Riding -MX.aspx | ||
| Svh |
I know they have to keep their skill level up but I wonder if there is some other way. I am guessing the factories have searched to protect their investments so there probably isn't. It seems every off season someone is getting hurt on dirt. | ||
| Jaimec |
It's good to know that Jorge can now ride legally in Spain: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jan/120110a.ht m | ||
| Jaimec |
Almost enough to make you feel sorry for the little runt: http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-2012 -pivotal-year-dani-pedrosa/ | ||
| Xb1125r |
I am not crazy about Danny, I will miss Cimochelli's ways to upset Danny.and hot he got on his nerves. Danny has balls for a little guy, I have to give him that. (Message edited by xb1125r on January 17, 2012) | ||
| Blake |
Since becoming the underdog, I've developed a soft spot for Danny Pedrosa. He is a tough little guy. It's a pity he never seems to actually enjoy his job. | ||
| Jaimec |
I've come to the realization that the REAL "Bad Guy" is Alberto Puig, and NOT Dani. And now that Dovi has come over to the "Good Guys" (at least as far as I'm concerned) then Dani is the only one I like in the Repsol garage... | ||
| Fast1075 |
If you are born small, you have to be tough. I admire Dani's determination and riding skill. (Of course, I'm pejudiced. I'm 5'3" and was Dani's weight in my younger years.) | ||
| Jaimec |
Happy Birthday, SuperSic. | ||
| Bads1 |
Edwards on his CRT interview. http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2012/Edwards+intervi ew+pre+sepang+test | ||
| Blake |
I really appreciate Colin's candid honesty and astute highly informative answers. |
