| Author | Message | ||
     Dktechguy112 |
I've been thinking about the charging harness. I know if we leave it in it prolongs the life of the stator, but if the bike idles for a long time it can cause issues. If we take the charging harness out it will burn the stator up fast. What if a switch is installed, say on the handlebars, that can turn on/off the charging harness. When the switch is in the off position, the third leg is forced on, charging the bike. When the switch is in the on position, the charging harness can operate normally, keeping the stator from overheating. I haven't seen a wiring diagram, but I imagine the switch could tap into the wire that goes to the pin that controls the charging harness on the ECM, #21 if I remember correctly. Also, a third option would be to implement a micro controller, which controls the relay, and would check the stator voltage, if the voltage hits a preset value, say 12.1 or lower, the third leg of the stator would be turned on until the voltage rises to a different preset value, say 12.7 or whatever. The goal would be to keep the stator from overheating, but keep the battery from running out of juice. | ||
| Samg |
The way the ECM program is set up..it does exactly the way you have it set up... The 3 rd leg comes on at idle and off when above idle...The only time all 3 legs of the stator is needed is at idle.. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
"The 3 rd leg comes on at idle and off when above idle" Wrong, with the charging harness installed the third leg is NOT on at idle. The third leg is only on above 5k rpms. You want proof? Go idle your bike with the charging harness, the voltage will drop into the 12's, because the third leg is off. When you drive the bike and the rpms are higher, the voltage will be 13.7-14.2, ie the third leg is on and the battery is charging. "The only time all 3 legs of the stator is needed is at idle" Wrong, The point of the charging harness is to reduce the heat output of the stator when the bike is idle, because at idle the oil flow is not good enough to effectively dissipate all of the stator heat. The only time all three legs are on is when the RPMs are high enough, you see the oil pump is rpm controlled, ie at high rpms the oil pump allows more oil to flow, this means more oil is pushed passed the stator in a given period of time, aka the stator is cooled more effectively and the third leg can be on. My point is that with a switch or a micro controller it would be possible to make the charging harness smarter, and activate the third leg under certain circumstances, ie if the voltage is too low, even when the bike is at idle. The goal is to keep the bike from dying because the voltage is too low. | ||
| Samg |
My bike did run the way you described .. Till I found out the relay was not working..after I installed a new relay,with a diode, idle voltage stays between 13.1 to 13.9.. Above idle voltage is the same as before the new relay. | ||
| Timebandit |
FWIW, I've got an 09 that recently had the charging harness upgrade put in. It doesn't ever allow the voltage to drop into the 12s. The regulator keeps the output steady in the high 13s/ low 14s. Lowest I think I've ever seen has been 13.6 at a stoplight with the brights on. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
I'm getting voltage dropping into the 12's at idle, it goes as low as 12.1, with the battery light coming on a few times. My dealer had the bike for a while and put a new stator, reg, and battery, but I don't think they changed the charging harness. So you are saying yours was dropping into the 12's before you got a new relay? What diode did you get, and where did you install it? | ||
| Samg |
The diode is in the relay.. The diode protects the ECM from voltage spikes... The stock relay on the harness kit is a diode relay.. I got the new one from Delcity.net.. Item number is 73986.. .. Checking the relay is easy.. With the ignition on,kill switch in on position,engine off, check for resistance on the power side of the relay.. It's should be a closed circuit..if not,replace the relay | ||
| Timebandit |
> "So you are saying yours was dropping into the 12's before you got a new relay?" Not sure who you're directing that question to, since multiple people are participating in the thread and you weren't clear about who you were asking. FWIW, Mine has NEVER dropped into the 12s (before or after harness upgrade) as long as I've been making enough RPM to keep the charging system in the charging mode. Always low 14/high 13. With a properly functioning charging system your bike should always be regulated in the proper range as long as you are making 4k RPM. If not, you have a problem. | ||
| Gemini |
Dktechguy112, you got it a little wrong bud. at idle the relay is closed allowing all 3 legs of charging. as rpms go up, the relay is de-enrgized allowing only 2 legs or charging. once the bike is above @4000 rpms, the relay is re-energized. when the bike is turned on, the relay should give one audible click as it energized. i have seen and understand the programming for the stater control and i have verified with electronic meter the operation as i have listed. if you find ur bike has very low charging, verify that your battery is good. do not rely on a conductance tester alone. use a quality conductance tester first, verify full charge then apply a proper load test. if that is good, verify the load side of the isolation relay is good. i had low charging and i too suspected imporper programming or operation of the relay when in fact my issue was a failed relay. the contacts of the relay were not carrying any current from the 3rd leg to the regulator. the command and resistance on the control side of the relay were good but no work being performed.  | ||
| Avc8130 |
Gemini, Any suggestions for verifying a relay? ac | ||
| Gemini |
as to what aspect? control side, load side or programming? | ||
| Avc8130 |
I can't imagine the programming would be wrong...but my bike certainly doesn't charge at idle so I figured it was the harness "doing its thing". But if you say the harness is "3-legged" at idle, I am starting to wonder if my relay is bad. ac | ||
| Gemini |
voltmeter with the bike running at idle, meter set on ac volts, one lead on large wire at relay the other lead at other large wire of relay. this is a voltage drop test. should read very low voltage. the lower the better. | ||
| Samg |
Gemini is right.. Best reading 0.1 volt anything higher than .5 volts.. Replace relay and check connector for burns or damage | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
I am going to swap the relay. That must be the issue. My dealer just swapped the battery, VR, and Stator, but I don't think they checked the relay on the charging harness. Samg, What is the advantage of the relay you linked(73986) over the stock relay that was in the charging harness? It looks like the are both diode relays, is the one linked a better relay from a materials stand point? | ||
| Samg |
The stock relay has no specs on it.. Don't know how many amps it can handle ... The part number I suggested handles 50 amps at 12 volts.. I know each leg is suppling higher than 12volts, I figure it's low amps... | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
Samg, How long have you been using this relay in your bike? | ||
| Samg |
Just figured out the issue... About a month | ||
| Dannybuell |
Samg ~ What was the issue? | ||
| Samg |
Dannybuell.. At idle voltage would drop down to high 11s,and battery light would come on.. Usually when sitting in traffic..with the new relay idle voltage stays in the 13s... Voltage readings , off idle, is the same before and after the new relay was installed. | ||
| Timebandit |
Gemini, would it be possible to post a better photo of that table? Kinda incomplete, kinda hard to read. Would love to know more. | ||
| Timebandit |
> "The part number I suggested handles 50 amps at 12 volts.. I know each leg is supplying higher than 12volts, I figure it's low amps..." regarding voltage specs on relays -- A. Voltage Rating. although 12 volts DC is the proper spec for the post-regulator side of the charging system, where the electricity has been converted to DC, it's NOT the proper spec to apply for the stator (AC) side of the charging system. The stator side of the charging circuit produces AC power, at high voltage that is proportional to RPM, AND it produces high/full output current if you're loading the charging system with a shunt regulator. based on the voltage test specs in the electrical manual, the observed voltage/current specs on 2008 stators, and the application of Faraday's law (voltage is proportional to RPM), the 2008 stator could produce up to about 120+ VAC at 10,000 RPM. yes, you need a relay that's energized at 12 VDC, but you need to be sure that the contacts are rated for over 120 VAC, not 12 VDC. i'd choose a relay with an appropriate AC voltage spec for the AC side of the system. that would mean something that's rated at 120VAC or maybe 240 VAC. B. Current Rating. If you're using a shunt regulator, the charging system load will be the full output current of the charging system at all times. Need to spec a relay that can handle the full output of one leg of the 3-phase system. I'm thinking that a 12 VDC relay with contacts that are rated at a minimum of 120 VAC @ 20A should be good. Higher voltage and/or current would always be better. (Message edited by timebandit on January 01, 2012) | ||
| Samg |
That may be the reason the stock relay are burning out.. Time bandit.. Have you found a relay that is 12v on the control side and can handle 120vAC on the power side? | ||
| Timebandit |
> "That may be the reason the stock relay are burning out." could be -- but if and only if they did not source a part with the right specs for the job. you would have to know the OEM relay's specs to know for sure. as far as sourcing parts goes, I have never looked for the part. but you should be able to find 12V control side relays with high AC voltage ratings for the contacts. AC voltage ratings are normally a lot higher than DC voltage ratings, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. i know that you can get suitable relays for 12 VDC control systems, but i've never looked into what's available in the plug-in automotive footprint relays. you have to realize that there isn't much need for 120VAC contacts in automotive applications. nobody in his right mind would design a charging system that uses a relay on a 120 VAC stator coil in the primary design phase. this kind of kludge fix only happens after a problem has been realized. there's another more likely reason that relays could fail -- they could be exceeding their switching lifespan. in this application, the relay could be switching the stator leg off/on A LOT... so often that they could easily exceed the number of life cycles for the relay and just wear out the contacts. > "I can't imagine the programming would be wrong." I can. in an application like this i would expect that a good programmer would design some hysteresis into the control logic, to avoid switching relay states every time the user runs the tach up the dial, as that would result in over-switching the relays to an early death. with no hysteresis, relay lifespan would depend largely upon rider style (where he keeps RPM), and how many times a rider transitions between the relay states. a good logic design would impart hysteresis to prevent the relay from changing states every time the tach runs up the dial. this is why i asked for more information about the control logic from Gemini. regardless of whether they designed hysteresis into the switching logic, and whether the relays are just failing due to switching lifespan, one has to remember that the relay and harness is a band-aid fix that was applied to cover up a major design flaw in the charging system which remains unsolved --- that the shunt regulator dumps a KILOWATT of heat into the stator, and the stator is not designed with adequate cooling. the real problem is an underlying charging system design that's pretty crappy. the first thing that needs to be done is to get rid of the shunt regulator, and to improve the cooling of the stator (ie: oil squirting mod). worrying about the relays in the harness is just maintenance ... like changing bandaids when they get dirty. (Message edited by timebandit on January 02, 2012) | ||
| Gemini |
this is the best i can find. not 100% sure this is the correct relay. but running part numebrs off the relay and doing some online searches, this is the most likely manufactorer of the relay that is used on the bike now. http://www.components.omron.com/components/web/PDF LIB.nsf/0/39018354E59A56C985257201007DD68C/$file/G8JN_0607.pdf | ||
| Zac4mac |
linkee no workee | ||
| Gemini |
http://www.components.omron.com/components/web/web files.nsf/home.html click on products, then automotive, then G8JN then click on the G8JN data sheet in the top right corner | ||
| Timebandit |
Thanks for the links. Omron relays are good stuff. But it looks like even a company lime Omron doesn't make make anything with the ratings that I'd specify for the 1125 switching application. I did a parametric search and came up empty-handed. Why doesn't Omron make them? Well, the answer is that nobody is using 120 to 440 VAC relays in an automotive application, which is typically 12 VDC. The only place that you have AC voltages in an auto is in the charging system, and a properly designed charging system won't need AC relays. So nobody makes them. The problem is that even a top-tier manufacturer like Omron doesn't make any ISO-type automotive relays with the standard plug-in footprint that are rated for the high AC voltage/current that the 1125 charging harness requires: The Omron G8JN product data sheet that Gemini linked to shows that: they are rated for 12 VDC @ 20A; they are rated for lifespan of a million cycles; they don't have an internal diode. When I did a parametric search for an "ideal" relay, the closest match that I got was the G7Z series DIN rail-mount type power relays. Those are rated for 440 VAC at 40/20 amps. Notice that at the high power rating, the DIN rail mount type relays are only rated for 80,000 cycles. They don't have a diode either. What I'd prefer for our application is a relay that's rated for voltages of 120, 240 or 440 VAC at >= 20 amps. These aren't made in a long-life (million cycles) rating, and they're not made in the plug-in automotive-type package. But they are made in a DIN-rail mount, which makes changing them pretty easy. So we have two options: A. G8JN. Use an automotive relay that fits into the plug-in socket, but is subjected to 120+ VAC @ 20A while it's only rated for 12 VDC @ 20A. It's a convenient plug-in package, but because it is being subjected to excessive voltage/current it's contacts won't last very long. B. G7Z. Use a non-automotive relay that doesn't fit into the plug-in socket. It's rated for the proper voltage and current, but it doesn't fit the plug-in socket. Some other mounting will be required. DIN-rail type relays are HUGE. A DIN rail could probably be bolted onto the rear subframe somewhere, like in the toolkit area. It will take up a fair amount of room. To summarize: anything that we've found so far that comes in an automotive package has an inferior/inapplicable voltage specification and probably won't hold up very long in our application. The good news is that we have found a plug-in type that will "work." But I expect that the load contacts will arc over from all of the excess power and the relay will have a short lifespan. It should probably be tested/changed out regularly as preventive maintenance. The other option is to find a way to mount a larger, more reliable, power control relay that will take up a fair amount of real estate. (Message edited by timebandit on January 02, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
Looking at the H-D wiring harness upgrade, it appears to me that they sourced an automotive style relay because it would be inexpensive, easy to implement, and would probably last long enough to get them through the warranty period before it failed. Then, once the warranty runs out, their choice of a less than optimal relay becomes the ex-customer's problem. | ||
| Timebandit |
Gemini, can you verify the relay type and the operating states? It sounds like you're describing a normally-closed relay that is: a. relaxed (closed) at idle; 3 legs charging b. energized (open) between idle and 4000 RPM; 2 legs charging c. relaxed (closed) > 4000 RPM; 3 legs charging i dug through a box of parts today and found one of these, which looks like it would do the job. the only problem is it's size: Omron G7L series, 12V, DPST, contacts rated 240V @ 25A.  (Message edited by timebandit on January 03, 2012) |
