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     Andymnelson |
Props to Erik from Blackstone for participating here. It helps a ton to have his credibility, and speaks volumes of him and Blackstone. Erik, for what it's worth, this is not your average forum! This is a (mostly) professional group of riders, committed to the sport and the motorcycles. We stick together and help each other out. We remember those who help us. We largely do our own maintenance and you services are likely to come in very handy for many of us! Thanks again, I look forward to having you sample a couple of my vehicles that I have had some questions about. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
I have never had or felt the need for an oil analysis, but I'll send in for one of these Black Stone kits in the next couple of weeks to help you guys assemble some data. Hope others do the same. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
""I have never had or felt the need for an oil analysis, but I'll send in for one of these Black Stone kits in the next couple of weeks to help you guys assemble some data. Hope others do the same." Thank you. With a few more Oil Reports under our belt (and Blackstone's help), we'll be in a better position to intelligently analyze the data we're seeing. By the way - word on the street is that Hughlysses is going to get the oil from his failed engine analyzed for us this week. That’ll certainly help out. So who's next? ... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
Requested the kit from Blackstone. I'll turn the sample around as soon as it comes in and post the results up for you guys when I get them. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buell_lee |
Thanks Guys you are all doing a great job gathering and analyzing all this data. I'll see if I can find someone down here in Australia that can analyze my oil if it helps. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
I'll order a kit too. I had one about 5 years ago, put oil in it, and never got around to sending it. The oil is still there, but the bike is long sold... I don't even remember if it was the M2 or the 9sx. I'll bet turkey basters are cheap enough that I could use a new one each time, and get a clean sample like Alex suggested. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Towpro |
Blackstone comes up on there suggested causes for different metals found in the oil based on what parts are known to wear in that engine. They must have some kind of Data base to help them keep all this in line. (that's why they ask for the make/model info). I have had diesel truck oil sampled by them and they are always right on with the suggestions. I would think there has to be some HD owners getting oil sampled by blackstone. I wonder if blackstone knows the Buell engine is basically a HD engine? They might have more input to the "cause of findings" if they made the link Buell = HD motor. Has anybody told them this engine is a HD engine? Just a thought. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
Yup, a tech showed up here and gave some good information. At the end of the day, I think you use the analysis to see how your particular motor is changing over time while using your particular oil. So in our case, if we see stable silver levels for 3 oil changes, then suddenly see them spike with no other changes... then you know what's coming... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
""Has anybody told them this engine is a HD engine?"" I have corrected Blackstone with regard to Buell engines (thanks to the input from Hughlysses and Court) several times via email, and then invited them to this thread. To their credit they came. I think that says a lot right there. My thought now is, rather than telling them that the Buell engine is basically a Sporty - just tell them you're sampling a sporty when you send in your sample. They said (in this thread, as I recall) that they have only had 5 other Buells sampled. They must have sampled 10 times more sporty's (if not more) - so why can't we benefit from all of that data? Just a thought. .. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
I think its better to give them accurate data, and let them do the true up. While this is a sporty platform, the motor has significant differences in how it's made, and huge differences in how it runs and gets run. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
I think its better to give them accurate data, and let them do the true up. Agreed. Oil analyzed from an XB engine built for racing would likely show a very different distribution for the elements than an XB employed for street use even though they are nearly the same. I would expect the same from a Sportster vs an XB. That said, you could nonetheless be correct in your assumption about the Sportster, and it would be interesting to get the stats for Blackstone's Sportster samples just for comparison against the XB results being put together. We may indeed find that there is no statistically relevant difference. I'll ask if they would provide Sportster results as well when I send my sample. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blackstone_analyst |
JohnyBoy777 hit the nail on the head, we have in fact sampled 10 times as many Sportster (1200 cc V-twin) engines than the Buell (1203cc XB). I looked at the current wear pattern for the HD engine and found that aside from higher aluminum and copper these two engine wear similarly. Someone (can't find name at the moment) mentioned that these engine perform differently and that could be the key reason aluminum and copper are higher in the Buell. As I mentioned before after we have added more samples to the universal average file, we'll be able to see if aluminum and copper are normal or not. It would be odd to see that everyone of your engines has the same problem at the same time. Thanks for letting me participate in your forum. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Hi Erik (Blackstone), That you for taking the time to comment - we appreciate your input here. And the chance to share in your knowledge as an oil analyst. My concern, with only five Buell samples collected, is that any results could be easily skewed. That seems much less likely to me, as that number goes up, though. My first thought is why would these five people be seeking Oil Reports in the first place. I would imagine that for the most part, they were part of a racing program, or had an 'Oh No' moment, where they felt something might be wrong with their engine. I'm sure there are other reasons to get an Oil Report, but those two must rank pretty high up there. In either case, neither would be particularly beneficial to us (those of us 2006-2007 Buell Ulysses' owners), looking for data (as a baseline) on normal street bikes operating normally. Five samples, in my opinion, is not nearly enough to gather any type of trending information. Personally, I would just as soon cast my lot with the 50+ or so Sportster owners. Just a thought. John | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blackstone_analyst |
John, The owners who have sent a sample in for racing or a "OH no" almost always tell us ahead of time. We take care to look at these samples and see if they represent normal wear. If so they are added to the file. The racing side may get a separate file (not yet for the Buell) as wear could be higher if the engine is raced a lot. If we find that down the line the wear pattern has solidified and that past samples that were excluded now should be included, we make the necessary adjustment. Every engine in our files had to start at zero, but as each file grows the averages get better and better. Working with the customer to get the facts right (again thanks for the info) helps to build an accurate ongoing universal average file. Many times the first timers come from word of mouth or by visiting a forum. They wish to see how there baby is doing and maybe see how long they can leave a fill of oil in use. As to adding the Buell in with the HDs. As first this looks fine, but lets say aluminum and cooper are normally higher in the Buell. We add a whole bunch of the XBs to the Sportster file. Over time the aluminum and copper readings might increase, which is fine for the Buell owners. But if a HD rider sends a sample in and the aluminum and copper readings match with averages we might miss a problem. As these readings might really be lower in the HD. Now we have another tool that is very helpful when the file is still "young". It is called unit location averages. These are the averages of your specific engine. After 3-5 samples, we start to see a pretty solid pattern of how your specific engine wears. Provided the oil change intervals are close(few hundred miles diff isn't a prob), this data set is a good tool for finding out what is normal or what could indicate a problem. Let me know if you have any other questions. That goes for anybody on here. Erik | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Andymnelson |
Erik/John- Is the standard oil analysis what has been done here? The test that Blackstone does for $25? If so, I'm ordering a kit right now...we can add 1 more to the "norm" list! I can see doing this on a yearly basis for my Uly, every other year for the Lightning (barely gets ridden). | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Andymnelson, You can order the Blackstone Kit online. They send it out free. You send a ck. along w/ the kit for $25. Shipping the kit on your dime - it cost me $10...so $35.00 total. The Amsoil kit is $35.00ish, but includes a prepaid mailer. So both kits are the same price. Blackstone received my kit on Wed. afternoon by way of UPS, and by Thurs. AM I had the results via email. Thanks for sending one in and being a part of this. John | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Erik (Blackstone_analyst), great information - I'm getting a much better picture of the process. Thanks again. John . | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Refurb |
Back in August, jomartijr posted to the "'07 Crank PM, What are my options?" thread, noting that he knew a source for oil analysis that had a good reputation and provided an interpretation of the results. As the owner of a '07 approaching 20,000 miles, I decided that it would be in my best interest to buy some information now to help reduce the chance of a catastrophic failure down the road. So, I pm’d John and got the contact info for Terry Dyson http://www.dysonanalysis.com/ and contracted for an engine oil analysis on my Ulysses. Here are some of the numbers from my test that relate to other analyses on this thread: Aluminum 2 Copper 194 Silver 24 Lead 9 Silicon 9 Boron 74 Iron 10 I am sharing the whole print report below. Terry also provided a very insightful audio analysis that interpreted the results. That information is proprietary under our agreement although he will allow some sharing between his customers. His analysis included comments on the quality of the oil I was using, how the oil was performing, and some recommendations for oils that would better protect this type of engine - specifically the big end bearings that I had expressed concern about. In addition, he gave his interpretation about specific aspects of engine performance. One comment he made that I will share is that this sample had an issue with fuel dilution. I want to see John’s numbers and analysis (his bike has fewer miles and is used in a warmer, drier climate) but based on Terry’s interpretation, I am starting to think that there may be a fueling issue that contributes to these failures. Specifically, I have always been at the low end of the fuel economy distribution unless I am on a trip to somewhere that is warmer and higher, with fewer cold start cycles. There may be a factor that lots of warm up cycles in cool, dense air lead to fuel dilution of the engine oil. Maybe if you combine that with a marginal crank bearing (why else would Buell have upgraded it?) and possible crankshaft quality issues (that were raised in an anonymous post) you get a viable theory that could account for this failure mode. Terry also asked me to share his recommendation that Shell V-Power was probably the best commonly available choice for fuel for XB Engines on the West Coast.  | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Bike_pilot |
Big end bearings in Buells are made of silver and copper aren't they? If so, the high numbers in those categories might suggest big end wear. Have any 06-07 owners considered fitting new big end shells as a preemptive measure? I know some folks who race twins (not buells) and they typically fit new big end shells every few seasons as a preemptive measure - much cheaper than waiting for it to go and then buying a whole crank. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Maybe Reepicheep can do a 'Table' for us just like he did on 'The Official 07 Crank Failure VIN Build Date Thread' All we need are the seven (or so) key indicators from the two we have so far - I know Hughlysses plans to contribute withj an Oil Report, as well: Aluminum Copper Silver Lead Silicon Boron Iron Reepicheep, calling Reepicheep, help! . | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Refurb |
The use of caged, rolling element bearings means that the crank must be pressed apart in order to replace the bearing. I wouldn't consider that unless I had already upgraded to to 2008+ design. If the new design still requires crank pin and bearing replacement at 20,000 mile intervals, I would be looking for a different motorcycle with no H-D content. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jomartijr |
Rees, I'm glad to see your post and though there's been some delay at this end ( just received the kit a week ago) will take a sample today and send it off. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
This list is a start: NAME.......Copper.......LEAD.....Alu......IRON.... ..Silver .....(Element Numbers are shown as PPM or parts per million) Refrur.......194..............9............2...... ......10...............24 JohnBoy......72..............5............12...... .....10...............102 If I am correct here, Boron is used in certain oil. . (Message edited by johnboy777 on September 30, 2011) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
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| Bike_pilot |
Ah got it, I was thinking plain bearings which are much easier to replace. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Thanks, Buewulf Maybe we should keep any chart really simple – no point in analyzing this information from our Oil Reports, except for engine wear. We aren't after the best oil here. The top four are Aluminum, Copper, Silver, Lead. A summary of the primary 9 elements in regard to engine wear, are as follows: Aluminum Copper Silver Lead Titanium Chromium Nickel Iron Tin Just a thought, John . | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
Sorry. I'm a data guy and enjoy relating and dismissing variables. Can't help myself. Here is your simplified table.
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| Bike_pilot |
I would add mileage on the oil. A good figure for a 5k-mile oil change might be a bad figure for a 1k-mile oil change. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Buewulf |
Also added a field for source of the test kit. If it is high-end equipment and is calibrated regularly, results from one lab to another should be very close even if they are using equipment from different mfgs. But you never know. (Message edited by Buewulf on September 30, 2011) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Johnboy777 |
Buewulf, thank you for your help on this. It looks really good. John |
