| Author |
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Hildstrom
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2011 - 12:25 pm: | 
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A basic 5-pin relay is on its way; it has both normally closed and normally open output pins. I started simple and I'll work my way toward complexity as I need to. I'm not messing with delayed relays, timer chips, or microcontrollers just yet. I'll let everyone know if there is any problem when shifting between 1st and 2nd when I get it all hooked up. Also, the toggle switch will still be there to disable this feature.
I was reading through the manuals yesterday and I will need to tap into the neutral switch wire. The indicator light on the gauge cluster is driven by the digital signal sent from the ECM. So, the actual light is probably low voltage and I'd need a transistor or two to drive the relay with it. The neutral switch wire is grounded when the transmission is in neutral. The ECM applies 5V to this wire to detect neutral. If I apply 12V to one side of the coil, the neutral switch can ground the other side of the coil to activate the relay. I should probably use a diode to prevent the 12V at the relay from trying to push current through the 5V ECM pin when not in neutral.
Stevek1125r,
I tend to pull the clutch in when I shift from first, through neutral, to second, so the latching behavior does not seem beneficial over driving the relay with the neutral switch alone.
Zac4mac, Froggy,
I really like the idea of programming the ECM to do this with no additional hardware. However, I'm much more interested in programming the stock ECM than the aftermarket ones because that is what I have right now. Programming it with free software would be even better.  |
Hugh2170
| | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2011 - 05:22 pm: |
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Loving this idea. Had some problems with boiling fuel whilst waiting for the channel tunnel here in the UK to go to France.
I like the idea of having a latching relay. I think it needs to work so that latching can only happen with a combination of neutral gear position and then something else in addition to avoid possible jerkiness and engine/transmission damage. How about an additional momentary thumbswitch ( like the start button or horn) on the bar or perhaps linking it to the rear brake pedal. Once the bike is in neutral, a momentary push of the switch or pedal will latch the relay, selecting a gear will immediately allow normal running.
Also, once it is activated, would it be possible for the relay to divert through a resistor which simulates the fuel injector( bit like the denoid mod). This would stop the FI light coming on which will be distracting at night. |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 10:10 am: |
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Hugh2170,
There are two errors detected by the ECM when the rear fuel injector is disconnected: 1) rear fuel injector error and 2) rear O2 sensor error. Connecting to a resistor or dummy fuel injector is not enough to fool the ECM into extinguishing the check engine light because it still needs a real signal from the rear O2 sensor. |
Musclecargod
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 11:23 pm: |
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It should be easy to fool the ECM with a oscillating voltage like that of an o2 sensor, maybe via a circuit driven by a 555 timer. One would just need to know the correct voltage and frequency of the oscillations. But the ECM may use these values to adjust things so it may just push problems elsewhere. Just thinking out loud... |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 12:42 pm: |
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I finished the neutral switch relay modification yesterday. It works great. It is safer and much more convenient than the manual switch I started with. A latching relay, momentary switch, microcontroller, etc, are not necessary. Even at idle engine speed, this modification does not cause any problems. If you are drag or road racing, you may want to turn this mod off to be on the safe side, but you should be able to leave it on for pretty much everything else. I'll have more to report after putting some miles on it this week.
I used a diode in the existing neutral switch wire to protect the ECM. Much more detail, photos, and a Youtube video are on my page:
http://hildstrom.com/projects/buellfi/index.html
Here is a link straight to the video (turn the volume up to listen for two-cylinder operation, one-cylinder operation, and hesitation):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR9QxBG1e8g
Thanks for all of the feedback and suggestions. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 12:58 pm: |
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WOW! |
Hugh2170
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2011 - 03:53 pm: |
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Looks like its pretty sorted. Well done. Only thought is this: When the FI light comes on is this data logged somewhere in the ECU. I only have experience with similar fault logging system in modern day tractors with digital FI. I am sure cars do as well. How long before your fault code memory fills up and what happens when it does ? I guess ECM spy or similar can be used to erase the codes. It will also be interesting to see what the O2 sensor does with the values it calculates and uses for everyday. Other than that I love it, saves fuel, heat, discomfort and wear. |
Juniorkirk
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 12:18 am: |
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Bud Lights Real Men of Genius should salute you, Greg.....awesome job. |
Ohsoslow
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 12:23 am: |
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if the buell ecm is anything like any of the other ecm's i have dealt with it will just continuously purge the oldest codes out when a new code happens. |
Jules
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 09:08 am: |
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Congrats Greg - and well done for pushing through with your initial good idea despite some scepticism (mine included).
It looks/sounds like a great mod for people who spend any reasonable amount of time in traffic.
All that remains is for you to make a few kits, print the instructions and get on with selling it LOL |
Syonyk
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:02 am: |
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Awesome!
I'm tempted to do this... my 1125 is rather miserable in the summer if I'm sitting in traffic.
An idea to deal with the 1-2 neutral blip: What about using a delay relay? They don't actuate until a period of time passes, so that 1-2 blip won't trigger it, but it will engage after a second or so of neutral at a stop.
Also, is it possible to creep with the clutch on one cylinder? Think "2-4mph, sitting in a toll line or such" - if the bike will do that on one, that would be awesome for me  |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:33 am: |
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Hugh2170,
I'll certainly post if I run into any problems. I'll check AFVs and codes after this week of riding.
Juniorkirk,
Would you put this ahead of or behind giant taco salads?
Ohsoslow,
I hope so.
Jules,
A kit? I posted a schematic, geez.
Syonyk,
A delay relay will work for engaging, but it should not have a delay when disengaging. However, I think any 1-2/2-1 idle RPM blip noticeable in the video is minimal. Also, with more throttle and RPM, the effect will be much less. With the neutral switch relay mod I have currently, it is not possible to creep on one cylinder. I described previously why I do _not_ want this behavior. The simple manual switch I had enabled creeping on one cylinder with lots of throttle and clutch, but the behavior is so different you will definitely over-rev when going back to two cylinders at first.
Microcontrollers aside, if you tap into the clutch switch instead of the neutral switch, you could creep on one cylinder with the clutch slipping, but I'd be very scared of what would happen when you let the clutch all the way out. If you were to use a microcontroller, from 1st with the clutch all the way out, you could pulse the injector when it is turning the rear cylinder back on over a 1-2 second period before leaving it on. Think half-second-period PWM: 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%. That may be gradual enough for you to reduce throttle smoothly.
Finally, you could put a manual switch in series with the relay in the diagram I am using. This would combine the neutral switch automatic operation with a manual disconnect. |
Dannybuell
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2011 - 11:40 am: |
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Hildstrom - I look forward to doing this. |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 10:48 am: |
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Dannybuell,
Cool, I hope it helps.
After commuting with this mod all week so far, I am still glad I did it. I wait for the cold start message to disappear before turning this mod on. Neutral switch operation is so easy I do not even have to think about it. It idles rougher than normal, but not annoyingly so. The rear cylinder returns the instant I put it in gear. I do not notice anything strange when shifting 1-2 or 2-1.
When pulling up to the longest 3-4 cycle light with ambient temperature near 100, coolant temperature was 205. After shifting into neutral and sitting, it lowered the coolant temperature from 205 to 190. Without the mod, it would have climbed to 210+ and cooked the frame. The frame stayed far cooler than the difference in coolant temperature suggests.
Now for the cons. The engine has stalled twice when shifting into neutral while coasting to a stop. Both times I may not have had the clutch pulled in completely and I closed the throttle at the same time. So, the idle air valve was probably mostly closed and there was probably a slight load from the transmission. That is my best guess anyway. Both times, the bike started right up: once in neutral and once in gear with the clutch pulled. I have shifted into neutral while coasting other times and not had it stall. I am not sure what was different; maybe throttle or clutch position. Most times, I have been stopped when I shift into neutral and have had no problems. |
Bcrawf68
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 10:34 am: |
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Hildstrom, I've been following your thread with interest. This is something I would like to do to my bike. Ideally, through ECM programming, but your relay idea is really great too. Any plans to sell this, or, if you're listening Erik Buell Racing or twin motorcycles, could this be an add-on to your ECM offerings? |
Hugh2170
| | Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2011 - 06:48 pm: |
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Hildstrom, its been a month since your last report. Hows the mod working out now you have a few miles on it ? |
Guilhem0018
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2011 - 03:20 am: |
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Hildstrom,
Amazing and congratulations!! I am dreaming of this kind of mod since I bought the bike in 2009...
1/ Is it still working properly? EBR sent me quite worried message about the wetting of the valves.
2/ What about just modifing the ECM with tuner pro and putting the values of the injection table at 10% of the normal value on one cylinder
eg: between 1000 and 1500 rpm axis and idle throttle axis which corresponds to the idle: put 10
and to limit the risk of stalling, just put the IAC value a bit stronger |
Hildstrom
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 01:26 pm: |
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Guilhem0018,
1) It is still working properly. I have not used the mod much since temperatures dropped below 80F. Wetting the valves? This mod cuts the rear fuel injector, so the intake valves are not wet and there is no additional heat from combustion while this happens.
2) I like your idea, but I have not experimented with tuner pro at all. |
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