| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Dennis writes a very good article but like a lot of reporters is seems to lay the blame entirely on electronics even though the faults are a lot wider and more complex than that. The electronics themselves do not make for boring racing. There are far more factors at play than that. The expense of running, reading and tuning the electronics makes the difference between the haves and the have nots, but in MotoGP EVERY team has factory appointed data technicians that are equally well equipped to work on and tune these technical marvels. Only this week Ducati have shuffled personnel between the factory and Pramac squads to cover the absence of Jerry Burgess, showing that the satellite teams are not lacking in technical ability. Noyes also seems to zone in on what were the most exciting races of the older 1980's era, whilst seeming to forget the criticism levelled at Honda when Doohan was winning almost every race by miles and making GP racing look as boring as it is today. Back in the 1960's Agostini would often lap the entire field at least once on his way to winning races on the MV Agusta (The only proper factory bike competing in GP's at that time). GP racing almost disappeared completely for a while in the late 60's and early 70's, and was almost replaced as the prime two wheeled racing series by F750 (the precursor to Superbikes). The answer is also not just related to numbers of riders on the grid. Next year we will see more teams on the grid than we have ad for years, but none of the new teams will stand a chance of getting into the top 5 and will probably end up fighting for the 17th-22nd places in the race (as admitted recently by Michael Bartholemew, head of Marc VDS racing). F1 has gone down this route to bolster numbers but the new teams still run around at the back and stuggle to even qualify. Meanwhile the same 3 teams still dominate the racing every week at the front. If you want close racing then you either have to restrict the factory efforts (or ensure that more riders get the benefit of factory equipment) or you make rules to ensure that competitors can compete on a more equal footing. Moto2 has shown that close affordable racing is not only possible but practical too, and we enjoy close racing almost every weekend in this class. This isn't because electronics are limited but that everyone uses the same electronics, ECU and engine package so nobody has a power advantage before the race starts. Moto1 (or MotoGP as it now stands) could benefit hugely by adopting a spec ECU or even spec engine rule. You may lose factory teams but so what? The numbers would be made up by well funded privateer teams as in Moto2 and the racing would be a lot closer and more exciting for fans, to whom it really doesn't matter what the actual technical regs are. Indycar and GP2 racing have had similar rules inplace for years and has produced very close racing compared to F1 and other high end single seater classes. Another reason for relatively boring racing at the moment stems from the lack of world class riders in the series and any competitive feeder series for prospective MotoGP riders. Most domestic championships with the exception of Spain cater for Superbikes and production based machines rather than 'proper' race bikes such as 250GP or Moto2. This is why the majority of current 125, Moto2 and MotoGP riders have come up through the established Spanish CEV championship. This makes it extremely hard for all but the very most talented to even get a look in when trying to get into GP racing from outside this route. Looking at the curent crop of SPanish riders making their way up from 125GP it is hard to see any change in this trend for many years to come. Sooner or later we will lose Rossi from MotoGP (He is the series bigest draw according to most commentators worldwide) and the rug will be well and truly pulled from under the organisers unless they can somehow introduce some kind of spectacle for the fans to follow. | ||
| Gaesati |
It will be an interesting mix even with Rossi gone. Spies will be the quietly spoken American hero. Simoncelli will be the wayward badboy, Stoner will be the talented anithero, Pedrosa will be the guy with the flaw, Dovizioso will be the almost there guy. Hayden will be the hardworker and Lorenzo will be the alien. All it needs is a good PR /media guru to build it into an entertainment spectacle. A bit of close racing and national pride in the riders and bikees won't go astray either. Of course that isn't what cutting edge prototype racing is about though is it? | ||
| Trojan |
Dovizioso will be the almost there guy. Hayden will be the hardworker By the time Rossi leaves (2-3 years from now) it is more than likely that both Hayden and Dovi will be gone from MotoGP or at least not in factory teams. Dovi will be dropped by HRC next year and Hayden isn't at the top of anyones shopping list these days unfortunately. Colin Edwards will probably hang up his helmet at the end of this year or 2012 at the latest, and even Capirossi has to finish sometime soon! It is very difficult to see who will come up from Moto2 and be competitive in MotoGP right away, especially when you see how badly Elias has done this year after dominating Moto2 last year. I think we will see Iannone, Bradl and of course Marquez in MotoGP within 2 years, but there seems to be very little talent to follow them either from 125, Moto2 or various domestic championship  JD Beach, Jake Gagne and PJ Jacobsen seem to be the best of the new US wave but they are all some way off from GP rides (Gagne has a wild card at Indy in Moto2 I think?). We have Bradley Smith and Scot Redding in Moto2 (both previous 125 GP winners) and they look like our best hope for future GP success right now. Chaz Davies, Alex and Sam Lowes are the only other hot young talents in the UK who look like they could make the jump to the front end of GP racing at the moment. Chaz seems to have been around forever but is still only in his early 20's, and has had a wealth of experience at GP and WSS level so far. Then we have the current British WSB riders such as Haslam and Camier, but I think they have been too long in WSB to make the switch now and are not on anyone's GP shortlist. Other than these, the only other people that appear to be on the GP ladder are ALL Spanish | ||
| Simond |
Unfortunately Elias' performance this year is a worrying indicator of the effectiveness of Moto2 as a feeder class. The racing is fantastic but if a previous MotoGP winner and current Moto2 Champion is trailing around at the back of the field, what hope is there for the rest of them. I know it is only the first year but surely the Moto2 bikes need more power (more engine suppliers and competition) particularly if the "Moto1" bikes are going to be knocking out 260hp. 120hp CBR600 engines to 260hp MotoGP bikes is a big ask of anyone. | ||
| Trojan |
120hp CBR600 engines to 260hp MotoGP bikes is a big ask of anyone That is why the Moto1 (Motogp) bikes need to come down in power and have restricted ECU's, otherwise there will be very few new riders capable of coming in from Moto2 and running with the current top echelon. The series structure of Moto3 and Moto2 lends itself to a radical change in MotoGP to bring it into line with the other classes, and that can only mean less power and more restriction in order to make close racing. Modified stock engines is a good start, and so long as they are in radical chassis it will still be a separate entity to WSB and will keep the 'prototype' status. We may even get to see some proper radical chassis technolgy too  | ||
| Jaimec |
"Defanging" the MotoGP bikes takes away the MAJOR attraction of that series... riders on the most powerful, state-of-the-art prototypes. If that series REALLY is the "development lab" for the factories, get rid of the technology that will NEVER see use on a production STREET motorcycle. That means NO CARBON BRAKES, and NO GPS-BASED TRACTION CONTROL. That will also help reduce costs, and provide a better laboratory for prototyping production technology. | ||
| Simond |
I agree to a certain extent about restricting power but there would always be the risk of Superbikes being more powerful than MotoGP - that'll hurt the image of the "Premier" series. If Aprilia make an even more trick Superbike and Max ends up lapping faster than the Moto1 bikes.......where would you put your money if you want to sell sports bikes? | ||
| Jaimec |
I believe 1000cc Superbikes built to WSBK specs are already making more horsepower than the 800cc MotoGP prototypes. | ||
| Jaimec |
Oh boy: http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-hars h-words-exchanged-as-pedrosa-simoncelli-rivalry-he ats-up/ I'm guessing "Super Sic" isn't going to have many friends left in the paddock if this keeps up... | ||
| Crusty |
Pedrosa is pissed, because a newcomer got inside him, crashed, and hurt his chances for a championship. Ain't Karma a wonderful thing? | ||
| Trojan |
If Aprilia make an even more trick Superbike and Max ends up lapping faster than the Moto1 bikes.......where would you put your money if you want to sell sports bikes? It doesn't seem to matter in car racing, but it seems to be a major issue in bikes racing for some reason. Le mans cars have more power than F1 cars, but they are a very different series and concept, and I don't see any reason why bikes could not run in the same way. Using prototype chassis would always give the Moto1 bikes an advantage even if the engines are the same as WSB. Moto2 lap times are now getting much faster and are quicker than WSS bikes even though they have around 40 less bhp than the leading WSS contenders. Give the Moto1 bikes the best tyres and chassis and the race times will be quicker almost regardless of engine power. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
So despite the 100cc test in Muggelo , the destroked GP11.1 version is slower than the GP11. Is this progress ?? Or is it still too early for conclusions ???? | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi twelfth on the grid. I'm wondering if he's beginning to regret leaving Yamaha? Ben Spies is on the front row, between Stoner on the pole, and The Rolling Accident With Hair. I hope he can get away from that idiot and have a clean race tomorrow. Lorenzo is on the second row in fifth, after having set a new record in FP3. He'll be right up there in the beginning too (unless he has another dust up with TRAWH). Edwards is also on the second row in sixth, busted collarbone and torn rib muscles and everything else. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
and that can only mean less power and more restriction in order to make close racing. They need to do something because MotoGP racing plain sucks. Yes, I know about the pageantry, blah blah blah--but I will take watching an AMA DSB race any day of the week. Why are so many people wrapped up about HP this and HP that? Does 10-15 MPH down the straight make THAT much of a difference? Sure looks the same on TV. I will take dicing it up in the corners over higher top speeds with 2 second gaps any day of the week. | ||
| Jaimec |
EXCELLENT race. Started out like another runaway procession, but didn't finish that way. Hope this is the start of something big. What's up with Crutchlow and his front tires?? | ||
| Jaimec |
Is it just me, or is "Stoner the Moaner" blaming his crew for not winning because he was running "incorrect tire pressures??" I'm waiting to see the time he doesn't finish on the top step and comes right out to say "*I* just didn't have the speed or concentration *I* needed today to win." | ||
| 46champ |
Jamie it's not you | ||
| Gaesati |
Blaming Bridgestone for poor advice rather than his crew. "spitting the dummy " more than moaning. Of course, if Lorenzo is a bit credulous and thinks he had the upper hand and Stoner says "bad tyres on the day" it undermines his opponents confidence. This is possibly significant gamesmanship, given that Lorenzo has already said he has to race at over 100% to stay with Stoner this year.So, Stoner's comment takes away part of his satisfaction with the victory and undermines his hopes of further victories in the season. | ||
| Gaesati |
However, Lorenzo is probably mentally stronger. I wonder who is the mentally strongest of the new generation? We can deduct Rossi, Capirossi and Edwards from consideration. Spies and certainly Hayden and possibly Dovizioso seem pretty mentally strong to me. | ||
| Simond |
Crutchlow's problem is strange. That's two races now and they insist they are running a similar set-up to the factory bikes. Colin Edwards was clearly suffering too - though not to the same extent as Cal. Dovi rode impressively too. I hope he can keep it up for the rest of the season. The more bikes running at the front the better chance of some spectacle. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Stoner and his crew are new to the Honda machine, do not forget that. This was the first race with 48degrees ground temperature , also Bridgestone are known to be hard to warm up , so it is logical that the Bridgestone tech adviced Stoner's crew, that had no prior experience of hot tarmac settings, for a pressure that they calculated and the rest of the field had to use for the race. The thing is that Stoner's speed is able to generate more heat than the rest of the field. He is the only man in the world capable of heating the tires on the Ducari , remember ??? What are the limits of this racer ???? So far this season the conditions were cold. But now Stoner has the data for a proper hot race..... So let the rest start worrying a bit more... Stoner said that he made a wrong tire pressure decision ,that made sence from what we saw in the race. Is this complaining ???He was faster than the in the first part of the race, bad dropped his pace later. At least he showed the maturity to finish the race in 3rf. The thing is that a bad day for Stoner droped him 3rd , while a bad day for Lorenzo in LeMans droped him 5th. Rossi says that he has no feeling from the bike, is he complaining and blaming the crew , or just speaking the truth ?? Lorenzo so far says that Hondas are superior , is he complaining and blaming Yamaha ??? Stoner said the truth about his tire pressure choices , and people immidiately blame him for complaining. Why so much bias against Stoner ??? Stoner was competitive all these past years riding the Ducati, with minimum badget, and winning races against the best riders in the world. Rossi cannot get near a win , despite all the money Ducati has thrown. Stoner is pretty mentally strong, to manage to do that on the Ducati. I wonder how mentally strong Rossi will be after a few more races ..... I wonder how strong Lorenzo would look aboard the Ducati..... | ||
| Trojan |
Stoner and his crew are new to the Honda machine, do not forget that. Honda have 4 factory bikes all running the smae tryes. They are certainly not new or novices and the situation is the same for all of their riders. Stoner had a bad day at the office and got beat by Dovi. Why can't he just stand up and say that they rode better than he did on the day? Why so much bias against Stoner ??? As above  If Stoner stopped saying 'We' in interviews and started saying'I' got it wrong he would get a lot more respect from fans. I watched practice on Friday and every time the camera went onto the Stoner garage the crowd booed and jeered audibly (he must have been able to hear it too). If he insits on speaking to newspapers and slagging off his previous employers, other riders and in particular Valentino Rossi of course he is going to get unpopular. Stoner has never been popular in the UK because of his arrogant attitude and that seems to be spreading worldwide now It was nice to see a proper race on Sunday for a change. Not just for the top 3 but right through the field there were some decent fights. It was great to see Dovi (the forgotten man of HRC) beat Stoner too Crutchlow looks to have a major confidence crisis since his big accident at Silverstone. Qualifying goes well but he doesn't seem able to domore than 6 race laps without thinking he is going to crash. When he was interviewed after his retirement on Sunday he said that he had no feel all race and 'knew' he was going to crash sooner or later, so just packed it in before that happened. If that isn't a confidence crisis I don't know what is! Hopefully they can use the tests today to get his head straight. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Stoner seems to use the "we" instead of "I" , all the time , winning or loosing. This shows that he is a team player. He also has said that he never looks at other rider's data. He is able to push and generate heat for the tires , while others just cannot. His riding sometimes , QP in Muggelo , for example is beyond available data. I also think that he is thinking of the title too much , so he was not willing to go 100% in Muggelo. | ||
| Trojan |
This shows that he is a team player. In 40+ years of following racing I've rarely seen a rider who is less of a team player than Stoner . If he was a team player why did he spend all that time at Ducati 'developing' a bike that only he could ride? I use the word 'developing' reluctantly, as I don't think Stoner has actually developed any bike he has ridden so far. He just has the uncanny ability to ride a bike very fast straight out of the box without really understanding what needs to be done to it. Also if he was truly a team player he wouldn't make excuses blaming his team for bad setup (it isn't the first time this has happened either!). If he can't take being beaten fair and square by a better rider on the day he should say nothing rather than try to blame tyre technicians or members of his crew. Very poor show from him and just shows his immaturity. There was a good interview with Dovizioso last week where he confirmed that Stoner has done no development on the 2011 Honda and that all the development work on this years bike work was done last year before Stoner even signed for HRC. I hope that Dovi scores a few more podiums this year and manages to embaraass HRC into giving him another contract for 2012, because at the moment it looks like they will cut back to 2 factory bikes next year and his name won't be on one, which will be a real shame (Message edited by trojan on July 04, 2011) | ||
| Jaimec |
Dovi reminds me a lot of an Italian Spies. He doesn't make waves, just keeps his head down, rides consistently, and gets the job done. Riders like Lorenzo and Rossi add color, but I respect riders like Dovi and Spies. It's just too bad Dovi rides for Honda. At least Nicky rides for Ducati and I can root for him now! Just can't bring myself to root for ANYONE on a Honda. Due to the sheer number of bikes on the grid I'm sure Honda will win the "Team" and "Manufacturer" titles this year but I am hoping against hope that Lorenzo can hold on to the title and deny Honda the World Championship AGAIN. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Freson wrote; "Does 10-15 MPH down the straight make THAT much of a difference?" Ask Geoff May. | ||
| Jaimec |
Chris Martin writes a fascinating analysis of "The Doctor:" http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-reco nsidering-valentino-rossi/ | ||
| Trojan |
Freson wrote; "Does 10-15 MPH down the straight make THAT much of a difference?" Ask Geoff May. doesn't make a difference if the entire field is slowed by 10-15mph. However if you have 10-15mph less than your competitors it is a massive difference! We have to remember as well that the change to 800cc bikes (instigated by Honda) was designed to slow them down and make them easier to ride than the old 990 MotoGP bikes. The opposite has happened and corner speeds are much higher than before. Lap times have been obliterated and speeds of 200mph+ are now common at most tracks, so the 800cc experiment must be veiwed as an abject failure. 1000cc MotoGP bikes will be no slower than the 800 bikes we see today, but the factory boys will be a lot further from the 'also ran' CRT teams at the back that's for sure. The Marc VDS Suter/BMW tested at Mugello yesterday was something like 7 seconds off Stoners time and 4.5 seconds slower than the slowest 800 bike at the test (Hiroshi Aoyama), so they have a long climb ahead just to avoid being lapped twice in a GP! | ||
| Gaesati |
Jaimec, there is an interesting article on Stoner also. The stats are a bit of a revelation to me. | ||
| Jaimec |
http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-case y-stoner-among-the-best-ever/ What is it about Australia that produces talented racers with the charm and personality of a Tasmanian Devil? Wayne Gardiner, Mat Mladin and now Casey Stoner... |
