| Author | Message | ||
     420at145mph |
just got mine today DAAAAAAMN i had no idea what all was involved with installing that sucker dont think IM gonna do it not too keen on the idea of removing my own throttle body or my rear shock or my cooling fan anyone have any ideas about how much itll cost to get it done at a bike shop? | ||
| Misato |
you need a custom map done. you could use one I have but it might put it to rich. I installed it myself, the hard part was getting the O2 sensor off. The rest is pretty easy. why do you have to take the TB off?? it should have 2 connections that piggyback into the fuel injectors, then one that splices in with the TPS, then I can't remeber, maybe a ground? you got the new hipo O2 right? easy to take the fan off, and move the shock to get at the O2 sensor. just have to support the bike somehow. hang it from rafters? | ||
| 420at145mph |
i got the x1 map and 4 custom maps 2 of em are for nailin 1200s so thems pretty useless right now to get TO the injectors u have to remove the TB there WAY down low on the right side of the bike n im just not real confident in my mechanical abilitys | ||
| Misato |
I have 2 for the 9's you could try but with the force pipe. gotta be closer than the 1200's. did you get the O2 sensor also? you need it. I didn't have to take off my TB. I dont think the r is different than the s on that.  | ||
| Bud |
Donny, There’s no need to remove the Tb !! If you find it hard to remove the injector connectors , remove the airguide plate ( left side ) 3 T27 screw ( just under the frame ) and you can reach the connectors from the under side be sure to isolate and ty-rape all the wire’s good and rub free, make a very good connection for the tps sensor hook up , and I don’t mean with a pinch lock ( or scotch lock ) connector, using one off those is asking for trouble !!! as the O2 sensor , yep, get out the shocker and the fan and you can reach it with a crow’s feet ore special tool for a O2 sensor ( 22 mm ) , don’t touch the feeler tip off the O2 sensor with your fingers as it is very sensitive !! when you placed the PC3 , get it connected to a compu and zero in the throttle position ( from 0 when closed to 100 when fully open ) perhaps it’s a good idée to tps the ecm as well ! still running the stock ecm ?? ( from experience a pc3 is not a good thing with the race ecm ) and if you really want a good map, go to a tuner with a dyno ( best a braked dyno ) and a lot off experience with pc tuning, because from one engine to an other there can be a big difference, sure the a base map will run, but you will get the last few hp/tq if you tune it on a dyno and let theme make a custom map just my 2 euro cent’s gr, Bud | ||
| Misato |
what he said... | ||
| Johncr250 |
Where did you get the PC3 from 420? I`m sure you can install it, just take your time. | ||
| Bud |
what he said... i gotto learn to type faster  | ||
| 420at145mph |
i got it from sammings the pc3 the hipo 02 sensor all the cables the software the x1 map and 4 custom maps all for 250$ ur right about the tb i just realized the directions are for an X1 be kinda hard to remove MY gastank i think im gonna take sams advice and wait to install it till ive got my heads done n the 1200 kit installed no sense in making it run any rougher than it already does at low rpm thnx fer the input ppl  | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I know 420 has the RaceECM but I am wondering if I really need the RaceECM to go with the PCIII... | ||
| 420at145mph |
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| M1combat |
You know what Wycked... I've been pondering what would happen with a stock pipe at the proper A/F mixture. I don't see a reason to not use the race ECM w/ the PCIII on a 9, but on the 12 it would allow you to keep the "tuned on the fly" pipe AND have the proper A/F. HMMMM... I'm very tempted to try that before I get a Drummer. I really want a Drummer though. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Mine was more for that custom exhaust I want to make...I just don't know if there is an ignition curve difference between the raceECM and the stockECM or not. I have heard there isn't an ignition difference just a fuel map difference. Since the PCIII won't tune inside the box, I am not sure if I need to worry about inside the box running too lean or if the A/F will reset istself enough. I want the PCIII for 3/4-WOT...but again I don't know if there is an ignition curve change to go along with the raceECM. | ||
| Ingemar |
They told me the race ecm has a different ignition curve. I swapped my stock ecm for a race ecm on an otherwise stock bike (xb9) but did not notice a difference in performance. | ||
| 420at145mph |
only diffrence ive noticed after race ecm is that at 130mph it is not bumping the rev limiter ( but it still wont go no damn faster  ) | ||
| Johnnyrfast |
Please enlighten me ? just what the f... is a PCIII ? | ||
| 420at145mph |
power commander 3 lets u adjust the fuel curve and the air fuel mixture (i think) | ||
| Johnnyrfast |
Sorry for the stoopid questions, what would the advantage be except for you having the ability to play with the mixtures yourself ? | ||
| 420at145mph |
http://www.powercommander.com | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
Johnny it lets you add fuel if you make any mods that the ECM can't adjust for. Like in Misato's case, the Force exhaust he has the stock ECM runs way lean with. Using the PCIII he can adjust out that lean situation. Atleast from 3500 and up...3500 and down is the drawback, thats the closed loop "box" section of the map that you can't adjust. | ||
| Johnnyrfast |
Thanks Wycked, so there should be no need for it on a 12 with race kit ? | ||
| Outrider |
I strongly support any post that advised you to do the final adjustments on a dyno equipped with an exhaust analyzer. Doing so will give you the best performance without incurring the risks of running too lean or too rich which could result in premature engine failure. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
No, the raceECM has the factory racekit within its abilities, but that doesn't mean you couldn't gleen another 1-2hp out of using a PCIII either. Its just a matter of what you want to spend. Between the cost of the unit, and the cost of the proper tuning which I totally agree with Outrider and the others that have said it, your looking at around $500-$600 for 1-2hp. I have plans for several mods the stock/raceECM just won't have any clue about. Bigbore and such so a PCIII is what I need. | ||
| 420at145mph |
ya i found a dyno / tuning center in fargo im still gonna wait till i got the 1200kit on it no sense in hooking it up n HOPING it runs better | ||
| Fullpower |
is it possible to fool the race ecm into richening its low speed A/F ratio by lowering the the indicated temperature of the air box, or cylinder via a small ten-turn potentiometer across either one or both of the temperature sending units? i think the ecm uses temperature data to adjust its fuel curves, both open and closed loop. | ||
| M1combat |
It uses it's "adaptive fuel value" to adjust the level of it's curve. It won't change the curve itself, but it will adjust the level of the curve based upon the input it receives while in it's learning mode. I believe this AFV (NOT AIR FUEL VALUE - Adaptive Fuel Value) does indeed affect the "non-learning" mode as well. It just doesn't do any learning in that mode. | ||
| 420at145mph |
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| Opto |
Fullpower, as far as I can work out the ecm uses air temp and tps to deliver the fuel. Cyl temp I think would be for cold enrichment/normal running/and a hot mode where fuel is decreased to save possible motor damage(that's mentioned in the FM) If you change the value of the air temp sensor readings, in closed loop the ecm will still read the O2 sensor and adjust accordingly, so there will be no net gain or change. In open loop there would also be no net change because the ecm "relearned" from the closed loop experience. Same principle for playing with the tps, the ecm learns from the O2 sensor how much fuel is being delivered, and adjusts accordingly. It's a difficult one to get around, I imagine if a PC3 richens up the mixture in closed loop then the O2 sensor will report back to the ecm that the motor is running rich and the ecm will cut back the fuel. If a PC3 richens the mixture in open loop then that would be OK because the ecm doesn't monitor the O2 sensor in open loop (I think). Can a PC3 tell if the ecm is in open or closed loop - I wouldn't think so, but maybe. The only way I can see a PC3 (or similar) working is by taking the ecm's injector pulses as a timing reference and substituting its preprogrammed pulse-widths in for the rpm and load, making the system virtually fulltime open loop. I'm not posting this so much as to inform but to become informed by others who really know, and have time to explain it... | ||
| Al_lighton |
When you hook up a PC3 with the PC 4 wire O2 sensor, the O2 sensor feeds the PC3, then the PC3 feeds the O2 signal to the ECM. Has anyone ever monitored the O2 signal from the PC3 to the ECM? If Dynojet did it right, and I *THINK* they did, they would be spoofing the O2 signal to the ECM so that the ECM isn't playing tug of war with the PC3 in the closed loop regime. That way, the ECM in closed loop sets it AFV value sensibly, and the PC3 doesn't chase it's tail trying to correct for an ever changing ECM that is getting screwed up AFV values set during closed loop. I've heard conflicting info, and don't have either the time nor the dyno to prove it myself. All I really know is that guys like Aaron et al at NRHS can make a bike sing with a PC3 because they know how, and that guys that put one in without the O2 sensor and without that mapping process usually end up bitching about how it didn't work very well on their bike. And THAT is likely the reason why dynojet discontinued them. A customer called me earlier this week, said that NRHS just tweaked his X1 with a PC3/O2 sensor. He is raving about how well his bike runs now. Not cheap, even costs about 1/2 a tire in dyno runs. But if you want it done right, you get it tuned. BTW, that last statement applies to ANY bike, with ANY induction system. | ||
| M1combat |
That sounds about right Al... If they don't modulate the O2 signal before it gets to the ECM it will indeed force the ECM into a tug of war with itself. I think it would end up bottomed on the lean side trying to figure out why it can't get the mix right and then the PCIII adjusts from there. Because it's bottomed on the lean side it would then lose it's ability to adjust for added elevation. This is assuming that the installer made enough runs on a Dyno to get the ECM to bottom. If they didn't, I think the ECM would then adjust to a point that it likes what's coming out of the O2 again. No net gain would occur other than as you move through the rev range and the ECM takes a bit of time to learn that it's got more fuel than it wants again and adjusts itself down again... Tug of war indeed. However, if they do actually manipulate the O2 signal... They may have it right. I think this is what techlusion is working on as well. | ||
| 420at145mph |
i got a map that setup for a 9r drummer pipe ti-force xhaust k&n filter race ecm the sender said it will work with my setup D&D and stock header,race ecm ,K&n,desnorkeld so can i go install my pcIII load the map and be good to go? | ||
| Glitch |
so can i go install my pcIII load the map and be good to go? Maybe | ||
| 420at145mph |
heh damnit thats what i thought dont wanna install it n HOPE it works thats why i started the whos got? thread | ||
| Glitch |
Yeah, I figured that. Wish I could have been more help. But, you've come this far to get the right stuff. Only one step left, dyno tune. May be a PITA, but I'll betcha it'll be worth it in the end. | ||
| 420at145mph |
ya i probly just wont install it till i got the bibore kit n heads n cams n •••• have it all done this winter n hopefully have it all installed n setup by next summer | ||
| Glitch |
Then next summer you'll be 420XBMONSTER! | ||
| 420at145mph |
i smell nitrous  | ||
| Ortegakid |
oh,420,don't do it!I tried it on my last race bike,worked real good for the last lap pass of the fact ducati's,'till a nozzle got plugged and WASTED the piston,which proceeded out the bottom,onto the track,rear tire,etc.At least I didn't fall down,and won the race,but was very expensive learning experience! |
