| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Yep, sounds pretty similar to mine. Your knock sounds faster for the same engine speed somehow though. Here's my post with the video of mine: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=142838&post=1998555#POST1998555 | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Ugh, this was making me feel pretty bad. At first I thought I'll just adjust the primary chain and that's that. I also thought it may have been a broken baffle in the muffler. Of course I knew those couldn't be it and it was more like a wrist pin. After hearing yours, it sounds like my engine is on it's way out. Pretty disappointing. I do like the idea of that ebay engine though. Good luck guys. Looks like I'll be riding the other bike for awhile. | ||
| Towpro |
Rdkingryder, adjust the primary and try it. Then get an oil sample tested and from what I read here, look for high content of silver they put in the crank big end bearings. | ||
| Whisperstealth |
That 09 Buell Engine on fleebay would be mighty tempting were I in some of your shoes.... You never know with a used motor, however the seller seems pretty straight up and honest. $2000 or so for an 09 with less than 6K is a good deal. It's one of those, if you have the spendable cash, get it even if you don't need it right now, items. | ||
| Hughlysses |
OK- tonight's installment is the final stages of disassembly. Ready to take right side crank nut, cam drive gear, and oil pump drive gear off. I bought this nifty little locking tool from American Sport Bike when I did the oil pump drive gear replacement on my S3 a few years ago:  Transmission shaft hex bolt removed and transmission in neutral, shifter drum marked in the 12 o'clock position per the shop manual:  Left side of case with shifter shaft assembly removed and all (not quite) bolts out:  Bottom view of cases. Note hex plug at the upper left. It appears you could remove this to drain the last few ounces of oil out of the engine sump. I'll need to remove it to clean any shavings out of this oil passage which goes from the sump to the scavenging section of the oil pump. Note the nut at the right (front) of the cases. There's a ~5/16" bolt which goes all the way through the cases that the shop manual doesn't say anything about removing, but you have to remove it.  A few knocks with a rubber hammer and the right side case is off!  Crankshaft is out; the right side bearing and left side inner sleeve look fine:  Closeup of left side crankcase bearing, it looks fine:  The last thing to check is the condition of the oil pump:  Bottom of oil pump removed. There's some scoring where the shavings got between the scavenge gerotor and the "lid":  Scavenge gerotor in place. Some scoring evident:  Scavenge gerotor removed:  Supply gerotor removed; some scoring:  View of the inside of the oil pump housing. Some scoring at the top (bottom?) where the upper face of the supply gerotor rides:  The other surfaces could be cleaned up by sanding them on a piece of fine emery cloth on a piece of glass, but that inner surface might be impractical to reach. I'm still undecided on what to do with this thing, but at least I know everything that needs to be replaced at this point. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Hugh and all, there's a new'08 crank on ebay right now. Don't know if it will fit without alot of modifying though. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Brand-new-08-and-la ter-style-Buell-XB12-flywheel-/180645691671?pt=Mot orcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a0f528117 Hugh, I remember you mentioning your engine trouble on "Would You Buy A Uly Again?" on Advrider. Ski, I remember your problems on Advrider also, I'm Vtwin there. Looks like a few of us are having problems at around 30K. BTW, thanks for documenting all of this, it really helps. (Message edited by rdkingryder on March 30, 2011) | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Thanks Towpro, I did try it and of course made no difference, if only it were that easy. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Rdkingryder- make sure you check the primary crank nut too. Supposedly you can indentify that by putting the bike in gear while stopped and easing out on the clutch while holding the bike stopped. If the knock goes away, it's a loose primary nut, which is pretty easy to correct. Thanks for the link to the ebay crank; that's a good deal (BIN is about $150 less than dealer price). Only complication is what Erik Buell Racing told me:
I e-mailed the guy- I figure it's a reasonable possibility he was actually running an 08 crank in an earlier engine (he says it was for his race bike) so maybe he has the parts required or at least can tell me exactly what's required. If I could drop the crank in myself, that would save me a bundle in shipping charges and shop labor. | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Hugh, thanks for the advice. I'll give that a try, anything is better than what I'm thinking it is. Let me know if you get that crank and what it takes to get it in there. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Augh! The auction for the 08 crankshaft ended before I got home (I wasn't paying attention to the end date/time) and before I got the guy's reply to my question. The ebayer says he's been racing XB's for several years and has run the 08 cranks ever since they've been available. According to him, it IS basically a drop-in except for having to change the primary sprocket. I think the only complication is the same complication you run into from replacing the stock crank with another 07 stock crank- the "pinion" (right side) bearing. You have to measure the OD of the race on the crankshaft and the ID of the race in the engine case, then you take the difference in the two measurements. You go to a table in the shop manual, and select one of four bearings based on that measurement. Unless the 08 crank outer race wound up with approximately the same OD as my old crank outer race, I'd have to buy a new bearing. Fortunately, the cost is only $7.90 and you just have to remove a snap ring to install it. The only other glitch is the 08 crankshaft does not have a timing mark machined into the right flywheel since the timing on 08-up bikes is fixed. I don't think it would be hard to put a mark on the flywheel in the correct position (heck, a permanent magic marker would work). I've e-mailed the guy to see if the crank's still available. This may be the way I go. (Message edited by Hughlysses on March 31, 2011) | ||
| Luftkoph |
with these problems how many folks have had their oil sampled in 06 and up bikes I would like to know what the silver ppm has been mine was113 I'm still freaking out man!!!! | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Hi all, got an email from tech support at Buell Racing. They said they had a bad batch of cranks that were weak. An '08 will fit without too much modifying he stated you need these parts. Flywheel Assembly-23999-08 Sprocket/rotor 38T-30029-08 Washer-6445 Bolt-4589 Left Bearing-24605-07 Right Bearing-you need to do the measuring Hugh mentioned. Hope this helps others. (Message edited by rdkingryder on March 31, 2011) | ||
| Hughlysses |
They said they had a bad batch of cranks that were weak. I can believe that, because some of these engines have gone 50k or 100k miles without this problem. Interesting- the one thing in the list above that nobody had specifically mentioned before is the left side bearing. It's definitely different than the 07 part which is P/N 24604-00D. If I get this crank, I'll probably get a XB9 primary conversion kit from American Sport Bike which will take care of the sprocket (although with a different tooth count) and the bolt. | ||
| Djz |
Hughlysses I think i have a good way for you to think on this ..I belive you can buy a 2008 or 9 for under $5000.00 with less than 6000 miles with a little looking (getting to be a nice time of year for a road trip .) then part yours out on ebay maybe get a return of 2500 for all in parts maybe more maybe less but if you look at yours the piston are wore out rebuild crank new cams you will put well over 2500 in it by the time your done and it a rebuild or for the same amount of money you could have a low mile newer bike with all the updates .your fork are worn shocks same ..it really seem to me junk yours go with newer and enjoy ... | ||
| Hughlysses |
DJZ- believe me, I have been going around and around with 3 possibilities: (1) rebuild my engine (2) install a used engine, sell the good parts off of mine or (3) buy a used 08/09 and part out my bike. The only reason I haven't decided to go with #3 (so far) is I just hate to junk this bike. Any way I slice it, the overall cost of any of the three is within $1000 of the others. Still just trying to see what I can work out. | ||
| Stellaglide |
Hugh Found this on the advrider site..... http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66 1904 If I hadn't bought the Tiger I'd be all over this one! | ||
| Rdkingryder |
I'm in the same situation as Hugh and saw that bike today also. I was thinking of parting mine out too, always wanted a Triumph steamer....nah....who am I kidding. (Message edited by rdkingryder on March 31, 2011) | ||
| Rdkingryder |
Hugh, got a quote of ~$625 for the crank from Chicago Harley on a quick search. Seems the parts are going to add up pretty quick. Tough decision. | ||
| Skifastbadly |
Well geezus, if Buell knew they had a bunch of bad cranks, where were the recalls? Or where's our money? Seems like some of are owed some compensation. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Stella- Thanks, I saw that one. The one that I'm considering the most is an 08 XT on Craigslist down near Brunswick, GA for about the same money, but with higher miles. My preference would to be get an XT if I get another one. Rdkingrider- Yea, plus I'd guess ~$20 or so in shipping. That's why that ebay one would be a good deal. Plus I have to buy new cylinders and pistons (~$580) an oil pump (~$180), gasket set (~$150), etc.. It adds up quick. Skifast- My guess is there aren't that many that failed, and they only started showing up around the 30k mark, which means Buell was probably closed by that time. It lasted well past the end of the 2-year unlimited mileage warranty, so HD is off the hook. I imagine if Buell was still in business there'd be a far better chance that they'd work something out with us. (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 01, 2011) | ||
| Hughlysses |
My Uly in better days- July 3, 2007:  | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Sure would be nice if Buell would be forthcoming on which 08's have the bad cranks. Anyone looking to buy a ULY could end up with one of these turkeys and that is not right in my thinking. Here are 6 08' ULY's for sale http://motorcycle.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=m cy&fil=XB12X&itm=buell&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=2008&ye=2 008&so=d&submit=+GO+ | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Hugh, How could you be sure that a used 08' crank wouldn't be from the affected batch that Erik Buell Racing claims to exist? (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on April 01, 2011) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Craig- remember, Buell doesn't legally exist any longer. HD should bone up if anyone does. HD built the engines either way. The ebay crank in question is a new, never installed crank, and the problems are only with 07 cranks as far as we know. I've decided I'm gonna proceed with the rebuild. It's the least cash out of pocket up front and it'll wind up a better bike than I started with. It's also the least total hours of effort on my part. If I bought the 09 engine and parted out mine, or if especially I parted out my bike and bought another, there's a lot of time and effort involved in getting rid of the parts (advertising, dealing, boxing up, mailing, etc.). Cheaper to keep her!  | ||
| Trevd |
Well, if anybody is in a position to rebuild, it's probably you. The way you've taken your bike apart and documented it has impressed me considerably. If this had happened to me I'd probably still be curled up on the floor in my garage crying. | ||
| Hughlysses |
If this had happened to me I'd probably still be curled up on the floor in my garage crying. I left that part out.  Thanks for all the comments on this thread. I've enjoyed doing it and it's kept me going (instead of lying in the fetal position in my motorcycle gear/tool room). I did (like my wife pointed out I ALWAYS do) drive myself nuts over the past week trying to decide which way to go with this. I finally came up with an argument I couldn't argue my way out of! Stopped by Harbor Freight on the way home this afternoon and bought a set of micrometers and inside diameter gauges so I can take the measurements to pick the right crank pinion bearing. Still waiting to hear back from the ebayer on the 08 crankshaft. Once that's settled, I'll go to my local dealer with my parts list and credit card in hand and place a BIG parts order. Then I'll start thoroughly cleaning the parts that will be re-used, and hopefully I'll be through with that by the time the new parts arrive. I just hope nothing I need is one of those "we know we said we'd support Buell for 7 years but it'll take 6 months for us to get this part" parts... | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
XR1200 might share some bits in there. It might be worth looking into. I'm rooting for you! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Thanks Nate. According to Darkhorse, the XR1200 uses the 2008-up Buell crankshaft and improved oil pump. None of the other Sportsters use the new system. I guess the good thing about that is that the parts are more apt to still be available. | ||
| 7873jake |
Hugh, Check your Harbor Freight mic set and make sure that you got all three of the standards in the case. Either they don't always pack them together or people go in and lift them as a 'free' replacement. If you can find a local machine shop or someone with a micrometer set that they trust, have the standards checked just to test for consistency. Its not crucial or a requirement but its always nice to know that someone else 'checked' yours before you start ordering parts based on a wonky micrometer. All that said, and I am no machinist by a loooong shot, I've had good luck with the HF mic set (mine checked spot-on out of the box)and bore gauges through the years for as much as I use them. If your bore gauges get notchy, there are likely burrs or shavings in them that have them sticking. Open them on a white towel or some such other surface that inhibits little springs from pinballing around. Blow them out or pipe cleaner the insides and reassemble. If I've rambled off things you already knew, apologies around. Would rather repeat it than miss it when it comes to measuring things by the thousandths. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jake- thanks for the tips. One good thing about these measurements is that they don't really rely on the accuracy of the measuring instrument. I'm taking an outside measurement on the inner race and an inside measurement on the inner race and calculating the difference. If the micrometer is off by a few 10-thousands, it shouldn't matter because it will hopefully be "off" by the same amount on each measurement and the difference in the two should be almost perfect. I'm curious about the different left side crankcase bearing now. It has to be the same OD and width as the original bearing in order to fit in the crankcase. If the ID is different (say, to accommodate a larger diameter on the 08 crankshaft), then the seal and/or washer and/or spacer on that side of the crankcase would be different sizes too. I guess it's possible that the bearing is just "internally" different (different rollers or something). I guess I'll have to figure it out as I go. |
