| Author | Message | ||
     Elvis |
The 1098R has always displaced 1200 cc. When they created the original 1098R, the streetbikes were the 1098 and 1098S, so they called the race-bike 1098R to make it look like it was basically the streetbike even though it had 100 cc more displacement (probably a marketing decision so that someone could buy the 1098 and feel like they were riding a Superbike - also made it look like they didn't have such a big "displacement advantage"). When they introduced the 1198 and 1198S, the started calling the 1098R the 1198R even though it was still the same bike. I believe the sales of 1098R's and 1198R's can be added for homologation sales numbers. | ||
| Jaimec |
Marco isn't impressing me yet... | ||
| Trojan |
Marco isn't impressing me yet... Same problem as Rossi apparently. No strength in his shoulder + pain + lack of movement = slow  Shoulder injuries seem to be the latest fashion in top level racing this year, and are unfortunately pretty hard to treat and long to heal (if ever). I hope that Melandri, Rossi, Crutchlow & Lascorz all manage to have a full recovery but the odds are that it will be a career ending injury for at least one of them. Second session times yesterday threw up some wild cards to say the least! Smrz fastest (although he treated like a qualifying lap rather than testing apparently) and Laverty 3rd on the Yamaha. Rea still an impressive 2nd fastest overall and certainly the most consistent. Checa made a big improvement after craashing in the morning session apparently. WSS times are even better, with reigning British Sueprsport champion Sam Lowes fastest  I remember racing in 2003 at a meeting where he and his twin brother were racing Aprilia 125's aged around 11! Strutting around the paddock in their matching white leathers as if they owned the place! | ||
| Jaimec |
Marco just jumped up to second fastest today. He earns the "Most Improved Award" for this practice session for sure! | ||
| Imonabuss |
Well, actually Ducati aren't racing either 1098R's or 1198R's, they are racing F09's, or I guess F11's now... | ||
| Trojan |
Well, actually Ducati aren't racing either 1098R's or 1198R's, they are racing F09's, or I guess F11's now... The 'factory' bikes are still F09's I believe, as they haven't been updated since 2009 and the Checa/Althea bikes ar just last years factory Xerox machines with new paint and minor updates. These are probably the only true F09 models in WSB though as the privateer bikes will be modified 1198R I think. Makes Smrz's single lap times even more impressive though They get listed by the SBK organisers as 1098 models just for marketing purposes really even though they bear little relation to the street bikes (as do most race superbikes). | ||
| Blake |
I wish more Superbike racing fans knew that. | ||
| Trojan |
I wish more Superbike racing fans knew that. I think most either do know or don't care. Ther eis nothing illegal in what Ducati are doing, as the model designation is purely a marketing ploy for their road bikes. Ducati manage to 'get round' the homologation rules by building just enough of the required bikes/systems to satisfy teh organisers and no more, so regardless of the designation given the bkes are strictly legal and above board. Buell or other small volume manufacturers could do the same with the 1190 if they wanted to, but would have to satisfy the homologation requirements in the same way. It used to be that you get away with 'promising' to build the required amount at some time int he future and the organisers would let you race. However since the Foggy Petronas fiasco I think they actually want to see some evidence of manufacture first these days | ||
| Jaimec |
Not familiar with that story. Is it worse than qualifying for AMERICAN Superbike Racing by building 50 bikes for road use in POLAND?? | ||
| Trojan |
Foggy Petronas 'allegedly' built the required number of road bikes (I think it was 200 at the time) and they were 'allegedely' inspected by the organisers to allow the bike to comply with the rules. MCN actually printed a picture of them all lined up in a hangar somewhere at the time. However they have since mysteriously disappeared and not one was ever sold for road use. I heard a story that they were all stored in a barn in Essex, and that they were all non running examples with major components missing (engines/gearboxes....), but haven't heard any confirmation of this. I think you have to remember that at the time the major manufacturers had all officially turned their backs on WSB, so the Flamminis were desperate to get anyone involved who promised to make enough bikes to comply. When Petronas came along I don't think the organisers were too dilligent in their checks For the same reason Ducati were always given favourable treatment and allowed to sail pretty close to illegality at times just to keep them in the competition. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I think most either do know or don't care. In Britain maybe. Not in cruiser-land. Onerous quantity-only based homologation rules protect the established large scale manufacturers from the likes of Erik Buell Racing. Such onerous rules don't serve the racing. A production scaling factor and/or some discretion by the racing organization is needed to allow small manufacturers to compete. | ||
| Trojan |
Onerous quantity-only based homologation rules protect the established large scale manufacturers from the likes of Erik Buell Racing. Such onerous rules don't serve the racing. A production scaling factor and/or some discretion by the racing organization is needed to allow small manufacturers to compete. No, that is why it is called PRODUCTION RACING. There are other classes out there for protoypes or non-production bikes. If Erik wants to enter WSBK then he has to produce the same number of road bikes as other small manufacturers (whatever the latest figure is), which is only fair really. If you give the small manufacturers enough leeway they could produce a MotoGP bike and blitz the WSB championship if they wanted to, so they need to establish a common base line that everyone can adhere to. if you can't/won't build enough bikes you can't come in.................simple Until Buell build the 1190 road bike there is no way they should be allowed to race it in Superbikes in my view, much as I would love to see a Buell racing on the world stage. One reason is that, should it win, everyone will then start saying it was given special treatment etc etc. Buell have been through all of that before rightly or wrongly, and this time need to race and more importantly SEEN TO BE RACING on a level playing field so that no such assertions can be made. | ||
| Jaimec |
Amen. No more excuses. | ||
| Blake |
There are different levels of production. From Honda to Ducati to MV Augusta to Erik Buell Racing. A shop with no more than a couple dozen hands that is producing on an ongoing basis a hundred street machines per year ought to be allowed to compete. No one time burp of production like the Petronas nonsense, rather actual ongoing day-to-day production at a minimum set rate. Why not? The only reason is to favor the large established producers. Thankfully, AMA Pro Racing already allows for discretion in such matters; it only benefits the racing. Hopefully the FIM can follow suit. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
For me the story of a small manufacturer producing a GP spec bike, entering WSBK, and blitz the field is impossible to happen. FIM is not stupid, they need more entries and more publicity. If a small manufactures like Erik Buell Racing or Bimota decides to enter WSBK , there will be nothing to stop them. The rules will be slightly bent for them and everybody will be happy. An American made moto entering WSBK will be a dream come true for everyboby , especially FIM. They would not blow it ! | ||
| Davegess |
Onerous quantity-only based homologation rules Come on Blake, while I appreciate the AMA rule that allows Erik Buell Racing to race it is not really usable for the FIM. I think the FIM may already have a sliding scale, not sure??? The whole AMA rule is predicated on racing bikes that are very close to actual production machines the public can buy as opposed to heavily modified specials. I like this but it might be tough to carry out on a world stage. First off the European and Japanese race fans seems to me more into top class race bikes being very trick, not stock. They have Supersport for bikes closer to stock. Second the AMA rule requires the race bike be very much like one that anyone can buy as a street legal bike anywhere in the USA. How would that work on a world stage? Which country would the street legal bike be sold in? If it had to be available in every country that held a race you would have a hurdle that no small company could jump. As a side note, there seems to be nothing in the AMA rules to prevent Honda from fielding a $200,000 "special" that anyone who wanted could buy in the USA. I doubt the FIM is interested; especially after being burned by the Pretonas deal. | ||
| Blake |
Dave, The AMA/DMG folks seem to have made it clear that all factories are welcome to apply for permission to field a "special" race machine, but it must also be made available to any AMA racer and for a reasonable price, $40K. The tech rules aren't that vastly different between AMA & WSBK. WSBK just allows more mods is all. See if any of the top AMA teams will sell their current SBK machines for $40K. Avoiding a Petronas scenario is too easy, simply require ongoing production and sales to the public rather than just a set number. I think our Greek rider of the Pegasus is right on target with his analysis. | ||
| Saxon59 |
"As a side note,there seems to be nothing in the AMA rules to prevent Honda from fielding a$200,000"special"that anyone who wanted could buy in the USA" If my bad memory serves me correctly,Honda did offer in '99 or'oo a race ready RC51 complete with race engine,suspention etc.but it was closer to $500K. | ||
| Davegess |
I missed that the AMA had a price limit on the bikes that needed to be sold. AMA bikes are much closer to stock than the WSBK bikes. The old AMA rules were pretty close but not any more. Ongoing production and sales to the public are a problem for a world series. Someone offers to sell a bike that meets all of Turkmenistan's motorcycle regulations to any one in Turkmenistan who wants one and it should be legal in WSBK? Not as easy to police as sales in one highly developed country. | ||
| Trojan |
The rules will be slightly bent for them and everybody will be happy. An American made moto entering WSBK will be a dream come true for everyboby , especially FIM. They would not blow it ! 'Slightly bending' the rules to suit a very small manufacturer would certainly NOT make everyone (or even anyone) happy in the SBK paddock! We have endured years of rule bending to favour Ducati and as soon as the rules appeared not to favour them they leave. If you 'bend' the rules to favour small manufacturers then there is nothing stopping them building MotoGP replicas and winning teh title by miles, which would certainly either alienate the big factories (the ones that are needed to run the series in the first place) or would start a tech war that would just drive up costs and probably force out the small manufacturers once more. Buell/Bimota/Benelli/Norton etc etc should be encouraged to race in WSBK but they should also be required to follow the spirit of the rules first. i.e they need to build a quantity of homologated road bikes. Until Buell builds a road going 1190 in sufficient quatities to qualify (whatever the FIM set the level at) they should not be allowed to enter. Like I have said before, any impression that rules are being waived, bent or positively implemented can only be harmful for the Buell name eventually. Just wait until they are ready and then race..simple AMA rules are far closer to Supertock than FIM Superbikes, and the the differences are huge and expensive. BMW have shown that a bike that is almost unbeatable in Superstock competiton doesn't necessarily translate immediately into a great Superbike racer. As it stands, the Buell 1190 wouldn't qualify for Superstock either at the moment simply because it is not a homologated road going model yet. | ||
| Elvis |
3000 bikes is just too big of a number for Erik Buell Racing, Bimota, Benelli, Norton etc. to hit. That number pretty much ensures that we won't see many, (if any) new entries any time soon. 1000 bikes would be a much more reasonable number. And if FIM's concern is that a 1000 bike limit will lead to Moto-GP bikes (and I don't think so, I think that's a reasonable enough number that nobody's going to enter unless they have a real commercial product), they could put a maximum price on it. A 1000 minimum bike limit and $35,000 maximum price would be much better than the the 3000 limit for fans of the sport and motorcycle consumers in general (of course the current participants would complain because it's in their interest to lock out any new competition). | ||
| Trojan |
1000 minimum bike limit and $35,000 maximum price 1000 minimum would open the door to big factory 'homologation specials' which would in efect be MotoGP bikes in disguise. That wouldn't be helpful to small manufacturers either and could actually push them away because of increased costs. Likewise a $35,000 price limit as that leads to all sorts of grey areas. $35,000 for the basic road bike or the finished racer, inc tax or exc tax, who's tax rate to we use or which retail price? $35,000 wouldn't leave you much change from a set of WSB spec front forks (if that!) so you wouldn't be able to have any of the current race bieks taking part. Even a reasonable Superstock spec bike will cost around $100,000 to be competitive these days. Maybe the FIM need to address the homologation issue by looking at applying percentage homologation based on the total number of a specific bike model a manufacturer sells each year? This would allow smaller companies building less than 3000 bikes a year a small foothold into WSB at least. For isntance: Honda make 30 million million bikes per year so would have to build 30,000 Fireblades to homologate that model for WSB racing. Bimota make 3000 road bikes per year so would only have to make a corresponding fewer number of a particular model to qualify? There used to smaller limits for 'small manufacturers' but there was nothing really to qualify exactly what constituted a small manufacturer, so Ducati and KTM would qualify even though they are really large manufacturers. Using a percentage scale would address this and would slide every year as the manufacturer got bigger/smaller of course. | ||
| Blake |
The price would be for the showroom street bike, not including the mods allowed per the rules. The number required for homologation could just be derived from a simple linear formula versus total 550+cc units produced for sale among the combined Britain, EU, America, Japan, Australia markets (the idea being to avoid the disingenuous 50 in Poland type of loophole) with a set minimum of fifty and an upper limit of 3,000. Something like ... for n < 29,550: # = 45 + n/10 for n > 29,550: # = 3,000 Where n is the total number of 550+cc motorcycles being produced per year. Something like that. Too easy. Why not? Key is the requirement for ongoing production, not a one time burp of homologation specials. So | ||
| Trojan |
Key is the requirement for ongoing production, not a one time burp of homologation specials. Unfortunately until the 1190 road bike is released and readily available this would still render Buell ineligible | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Since the 1190 is a 1125R with an extra cc's kit , it is very identical to the kit offered by Aprilia for their gear driven cams for the RSV4. Based on the 1125R , the 1190 should be OK for homologation. This should make sense to FIM and everybody else. A few extra cc's do not change a bike, does it ?? | ||
| Blake |
>>> Unfortunately until the 1190 road bike is released and readily available this would still render Buell ineligible. Really? For the 2012 season? Please explain. "readily available"? I don't see a total of 50 or even 200 production street bikes ever qualifying as being "readily" available. I also think it will be a very difficult case to make to contend that Erik Buell is not aiming to produce street bikes on a continuing basis. You planning to try to obtain one? Enter a few WSBK events near home? How fun would that be! | ||
| Trojan |
>>> Unfortunately until the 1190 road bike is released and readily available this would still render Buell ineligible. Really? For the 2012 season? Please explain. So far there isn't a single 1190 road bike sold, let alone homologated for FIM racing. Until that actually happens there is no liklihood of racing in Superbikes outside the AMA (who are obvioulsy more keen to accomodate an American bike). The FIM would at least require a physical road legal ready to sell bike to be in existence as well as a firm promise to produce the required amount of examples for general sale to allow homologation. If the new 1190 isn't homologated for worldwide sale then it may not qualify even then. I would love to see a Buell in WSB but until they can satisfy the existing rules it ain't gonna happen I'm afraid. By the 2012 WSB season it may be that a twin cylinder bike just wouldn't be competitive against the IL4 bikes, depending on which way the rules decide to go. It is rumoured thatthe next Ducati Superbike may not be a V Twin thats for sure. | ||
| Blake |
Erik Buell Racing must build street bikes for homologation? BMW didn't sell a single street bike in 2009 yet were allowed to race, so I think your understanding of FIM practice WRT homologation is a bit biased. Or are contending that Erik Buell Racing are not in process of producing the promised 1190RS street bike?  And again with the current FIM rules, protectionism for the big factories against new entries from small producers like Erik Buell Racing. That too is well understood, thus the turn in discussion to what a fair homologation rule might be. If change is desired, some willingness to support it would be required. I suppose Thomas, Jens and the Pegasus Racing crew are most apt to that role. If my favorite type of street bike is no longer represented in WSBK, I'll be much less inclined to watch, especially absent an American rider in contention. As our Greek friend noted, FIM would be foolish to reject an American bid for entry into the series. One gets the distinct impression that you dislike Erik Buell. You've not a single positive thing to say in their direction. Is that bitterness or just the Brit contrarianism? | ||
| Trojan |
BMW didn't sell a single street bike in 2009 yet were allowed to race, so I think your understanding of FIM practice WRT homologation is a bit biased. Yes they did. Bikes were not only built and homologated but were on sale here in 2009. They were launched in the US later than Europe. Erik Buell Racing must build street bikes for homologation? That's what production racing is all about. No street bike..no race Or are contending that Erik Buell Racing are not in process of producing the promised 1190RS street bike? I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that a manufacturer must present a suitable street bike for homologation before it can be allowed to race. That applies just as much to Buell as it does to Ducati, KTM, Honda or anyone else. One gets the distinct impression that you dislike Erik Buell. You've not a single positive thing to say in their direction. Is that bitterness or just the Brit contrarianism? Not at all. I have the utmost respect for Erik Buell and have met him a couple of times and chatted amiably. I may disagree with him on certain things that but that wasn't illegal last time I checked, and certainly doesn't mean I don't like the guy or his bikes. However I don't think that has anything to do with whether a bike (regardless of manufacturer) should be allowed to compete in WSB without a homologated street bike first. If change is desired, some willingness to support it would be required. The vast majority of WSB supporters/wathers don't want change and like it just aas it is. Most of them couldn't give a sh*t iof Buell are racing or not and most wouldn't know a Buell if they fell over it, so we are a very small minority when it comes to trying to change racing believe me. I spent two years trying to get Buells racing in the UK and met with almost universal disinterest from organisers, spectators and Buell themselves (outside of a few factory people who were extremely helpful and supportive), so don't think that changing the world racing scene will be any easier WSB is very happy with the current Status Quo and is certainly not going to upset the major manufacturers any time soon by trying to encourage small manufacturers into the series unfortunately. This means that the only way Buell (or KTM/Benelli/MV/Norton/ whoever) either have to play by the current rules are don't play at all. As our Greek friend noted, FIM would be foolish to reject an American bid for entry into the series. Why? As I have already said, the organisers are not looking to change anything at the moment. If a manufactruer wanted to join and could satisfy the rules of course they woul dbe happy, but they ain't gona move the goaalposts for anyone of less stature and infuence than Honda or Ducati that's for sure. | ||
| V74 |
i dont agree with everything matt says but most of what he says is spot on and have learned alot about behind the scenes goings on in racing from him on here and have always seen him has pro-buell |
